First Presidential Debate

[bush_cheney2004]

Definitely. I don't understand how anyone could see it differently. Obama was speaking in real-time whereas McCain was regressing to rehearsed statements his handlers helped him memorize.

Obama wants to bomb Pakistan inreal time, but he wouldn't know a real bomb from his Obama....McCain does.

[sharkman]

Definitely. I don't understand how anyone could see it differently. Obama was speaking in real-time whereas McCain was regressing to rehearsed statements his handlers helped him memorize.

In my opinion, McCain looked like one of those crooked-neck, turkey-vulture politicians from the movie "The Dark Crystal."

Don't let your odd taste in movies colour your view.

Obama was on the defense and sputtering to respond, and came off like a rude college student trying to speak over McCain. It didn't work. I have far more confidence in McCain's debating skills now, I guess decades in the senate makes for a good debater.

[Radsickle]

I have far more confidence in McCain's debating skills now

What channel were you watching?

Edited September 27, 2008 by Radsickle

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I have far more confidence in McCain's debating skills now, I guess decades in the senate makes for a good debater.

I agree....Obama was suppose to wipe the floor with McCain in any debate format because of polished Messiah oratory skills. McCain's scars and passion, born of experience, actually work to his advantage against smooth and unwrinkled Obama. Obama has a touch of that Al Gore arrogance thing going on....and we know what happened to him.

Still, and absent any major blunders, I expect supporters and detractors to see things along the same lines regardless of the on screen drama.

[capricorn]

McCain's scars and passion, born of experience, actually work to his advantage against smooth and unwrinkled Obama. Obama has a touch of that Al Gore arrogance thing going on....and we know what happened to him.

In facing down the leaders of rogue nations, I'll take passion and experience over smooth and unwrinkled. Those ruthless dudes know the difference and could turn Obama into mush.

[Radsickle]

Obama wants to bomb Pakistan inreal time, but he wouldn't know a real bomb from his Obama....McCain does.

McCain can't even remember the proper lyrics to Barbara Ann. Why would he make a joke of bombing Iran? Is he senile?

I expect supporters and detractors to see things along the same lines regardless of the on screen drama.

Too true. But aren't we all suckers for that drama?

I think it was the movie "Lorenzo's Oil", with Nick Nolte, (another hollywood reference ) where the original meaning of arrogance was made public to Hollywood goers...

Arrogance: To take responsibility for oneself.

Yes, I agree. Obama did seem a bit arrogant.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Radsickle

[bush_cheney2004]

...I think it was the movie "Lorenzo's Oil", with Nick Nolte, (another hollywood reference ) where the original meaning of arrogance was made public to Hollywood goers...

Typical.....all American references.....that's fine by me.

[Radsickle]

Typical.....all American references.....that's fine by me.

too true. I'm embarrassed by this fetish my fellow Canadians have for all things American. It's silly and immature.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Radsickle

[bush_cheney2004]

too true. I'm embarrassed by this fetish my fellow Canadians have for all things American. It's silly and immature.

Well, I have to give you props for being one of the few to admit it, eh?

[Shady]

too true. I'm embarrassed by this fetish my fellow Canadians have for all things American. It's silly and immature.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you just recognize good quality when you see/hear it. So does the rest of the world.

And is there an official count as to how many times Obama agreed with McCain, or insisted that "John's right?"

[bush_cheney2004]

And is there an official count as to how many times Obama agreed with McCain, or insisted that "John's right?"

Yes...the same number of times that McCain said that Obama "just doesn't get it". Seems like a lopsided deal to me.

[Radsickle]

I thought it was quite diplomatic, honest, and non-partisan for Obama to sometimes say "John's right". I don't think McCain was as mature though.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you just recognize good quality when you see/hear it. So does the rest of the world.

History will judge that, bud.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Radsickle

[Topaz]

It's been a long time since a US candidate wanted to distances themselves from their leader, of their party. We have both McCain and Obama against GW and his decisions on the war. I wonder how GW liked watching McCain's point of view?

[peter_puck]

Obama nailed McCain on his statement last week about not meeting with the President of Spain. McCain uttered "bullshit" twice. He needs to watch his off mike statements as the mike is still on.

I missed the bullshit thing....but I would be pissed too..it was kind of a low blow.

[August1991]

Obama wants to bomb Pakistan inreal time, but he wouldn't know a real bomb from his Obama....McCain does.

I was impressed with how Obama has moved to the centre, such as it is.

The problem of every US candidate is that they must appeal to the radical party base during the primaries and then move to the centre in the fall campaign. McCain had the advantage of becoming the Republican choice early in the primaries (end of January) and so he never had to pander to the base. Obama, on the other hand, had to fight Clinton well into June.

In such a short time, Obama has shifted himself to appeal now to the broader public and I think he's done it well. I could be wrong but it requires some agility to move from seeking the votes of moonbat Democrats to seeking the votes of ordinary Americans. I think it requires more agility than moving the Republican "America First" base to the broad, mushy centre.

IOW, for a guy who has been thrown in the deep end with little experience, Obama is doing very well and this first debate shows this. I reckon that Obama knows that he is not going to lose his base whatever he does and so he can go as far right as he wants and they'll follow him.

Also, as opposed to say our own Stephane Dion, Obama seems willing to listen to criticsm from advisors and change his tactics or even opinions. While I preferred McCain's concrete message in this debate and I figure that McCain has been around the block enough times to do it (reduce the size of government), I have to admire Obama's political skills. He even seemed credible.

If Obama has any chance of winning, he has to appear mainstream and move visibly and credibly to the centre or even right. This was a good first debate for him.

----

And btw, it was also a good debate for the American people and for the world at large. To anyone who criticizes the American system, I ask how many countries in the world offer up such heartfelt candidates in such a manner and then let ordinary people decide between them?

Russia and China don't. In Europe, it's often an old boys club where the various parties come to a negotiated agreement and divide up the spoils behind closed doors. Even in Canada, we haven't really accomplished this crude rule of power (although earlier in Confederation we almost had it).

In America, there is a simple choice and it means one team alone takes over the White House and the executive branch.

The Toronto Maple Leafs and the Montreal Canadiens may be similar hockey teams but the simple fact that only one can win teh Stanley Cup ensures that both will strive to be good.

[bush_cheney2004]

....If Obama has any chance of winning, he has to appear mainstream and move visibly and credibly to the centre or even right. This was a good first debate for him.

Well, the dynamics are such that for Senator McCain to even be this close in the race means that the presumed Obama landslide against "Bush's 3rd term" is not to be. Obama lost a lot of false (primary) momentum in the face of real competition for media bandwidth (e.g. Gov Palin), and as you have indicated, his very liberal message must be toned down for the general election. As long as he doesn't jump into an M1A2 tank like Mike Dukakis he should fare better.

And btw, it was also a good debate for the American people and for the world at large. To anyone who criticizes the American system, I ask how many countries in the world offer up such heartfelt candidates in such a manner and then let ordinary people decide between them?

Nevertheless, I wince sometimes when the candidates discuss other nations by name with regards to what the US will/will not do to them if elected. Both of these guys have critcized President Bush, and one of them is about to confirm just how difficult the job is....methinks McCain already knows, and Obama thinks he knows. Either can probably do it.

[August1991]

As long as he doesn't jump into an M1A2 tank like Mike Dukakis he should fare better.

That, and the "If your wife... " question are probably uppermost in Obama's mind. Unlike McGovern (or even Mondale and Gore), Obama seems willing to compromise his leftist principles to win. That makes Obama another Dukakis.

If Obama is another Dukakis, what will be the Willy Horton moment of this campaign? The Republicans won't let Obama's liberal reputation slide by. McCain, in the debate, referred several times to Obama's voting record. We've already seen a precursor in the sex education ad.

Obama should expect that his extreme liberal past will come back to haunt him. To defeat this Dukakis, I suspect the Republicans are looking for a Willy Horton.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Obama should expect that his extreme liberal past will come back to haunt him. To defeat this Dukakis, I suspect the Republicans are looking for a Willy Horton.

But to a significant number of Americans....Obama is Willie Horton when they go the polls (i.e. Bradley Effect).

[craiger]

Mcain really turned me off. Is it just me but his gestures were identical to Bush? All I could see is bush but more older

[August1991]

Deleted - DP.

Edited September 28, 2008 by August1991

[August1991]

But to a significant number of Americans....Obama is Willie Horton when they go the polls (i.e. Bradley Effect).

The remarkable thing about this debate - and something that I alluded to above - is that race just wasn't a factor at all.

Among the reactions here or elsewhere, no one first described it as a "black man" debating a "white guy". Rather, it was a debate between a young guy and an old guy , or a liberal and a conservative.

I don't think this is PC self-censorship. It's simple fact. Earlier in the Democratic race, it was a question of "identity politics" and McCain seems to have pandered to a similar politics in his choice of running mate.

But this debate made it clear that all of that is irrelevant: Americans are simply looking for a good President for the next four years. Who can have a good team around and make good decisions and then explain what they're doing so that America does well?

----

As a Canadian, when among Americans, I have always been impressed how you take so earnestedly this weight of decision on your shoulders. You Americans seem to understand that no one else can bear the burden - there is no rich uncle who will bail you out. Among Canadians, the only group that I find has a similar attitude is Quebec sovereignists. They too understand that a legitimate State in a civilized society ultimately means that "we the people" must assume our responsibility.

Everyone else in Canada, even Albertans, seems to believe that someone else will protect them.

[jdobbin]

Among Canadians, the only group that I find has a similar attitude is Quebec sovereignists.

That seems hard to rationalize when sovereignty has been sold by the movement as keeping things like Canadian money and passports but being independent.

[bush_cheney2004]

The remarkable thing about this debate - and something that I alluded to above - is that race just wasn't a factor at all.

Among the reactions here or elsewhere, no one first described it as a "black man" debating a "white guy". Rather, it was a debate between a young guy and an old guy , or a liberal and a conservative.

I'm not sure that "ageism" or "sexism" are an acceptable upgrade, but in any event, the "racism" perspective is more than covered by other media opportunities, including tonight's SNL broadcast. There is a more subtle component that is seen in the absence of "race", and this element is beginning to dog Obama rallies, if only in a minor way.

I don't think this is PC self-censorship. It's simple fact. Earlier in the Democratic race, it was a question of "identity politics" and McCain seems to have pandered to a similar politics in his choice of running mate.

But this debate made it clear that all of that is irrelevant: Americans are simply looking for a good President for the next four years. Who can have a good team around and make good decisions and then explain what they're doing so that America does well?

I wish that were so, but for many Americans, the personal likeability factor is important, and this will be used by some to reject both McCain and Obama. Presidents are like Project Managers...lot's of grief when things are bad, little credit when things go well (until long after their term in office). America does well even when it does poorly.

Everyone else in Canada, even Albertans, seems to believe that someone else will protect them.

Right...America has no big brother to run to for help.

[craiger]

Mcain really turned me off. Is it just me but his gestures were identical to Bush? All I could see is bush but more older

[August1991]

That seems hard to rationalize when sovereignty has been sold by the movement as keeping things like Canadian money and passports but being independent.

For true sovereignists such as Jacques Parizeau or Camille Laurin, such pandering to passports and money have missed the point. They want (or wanted) a country and want people to assume the responsibility of the State. They want a republic, a true democracy, where ordinary people assume complete responsiblity for the success of society.

The primacy of independence or responsibility did not preclude other negotiated arrangements.

[/end of thread drift]