Why Conservative Policies are Better for the Middle Class

[blueblood]

Canadian income tax rates in 2005: 15%, 22%, 26%, 29%

Canadian income tax rates in 2006: 15.25%, 22%, 26%, 29%

Canadian income tax rates in 2007: 15%, 22%, 26%, 29%

Only a Harper supporter would call these tax cuts.

Meanwhile the financially incompetent Harper has taken a surplus in the billions and totally squandered it instead of cutting our income tax rates:

"The 2008 budget set spending growth at 3.4 per cent this fiscal year. The department of finance reported last month that expenditures grew by 11.1 per cent in June alone and swelled an eye-popping 8.4 per cent in the first three months of the year. This is two-and-a-half times the 2008 budget plan.

“The Conservatives continue to claim they will still hit 3.4 per cent in spending growth for the year, but they’ve proven throughout their term in office that they can’t stop themselves from spending,” said Canadian taxpayers Federation research director Adam Taylor. “Their first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006/07. At the end of that year government receipts had jumped by 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount in 2007/08 was a 6.9 per cent increase.”

Do you deny these figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? What a financial moron the inept Harper is. No wonder Preston Manning threw him out as Finance Critic and replaced him with Herb Grubel, a fiscal conservative.

GST down from 7 to 5 percent, sounds like a tax cut to me.

[marksman]

GST down from 7 to 5 percent, sounds like a tax cut to me.

It's a tax cut. But doesn't change the fact that Harper's income tax "cut" wasn't a cut at all.

If we're looking at the topic of what's better for the middle class then the GST cut wasn't better than an income tax cut. The GST cut benefits those who spend a lot not the middle class and definitely not the working poor.

[blueblood]

It's a tax cut. But doesn't change the fact that Harper's income tax "cut" wasn't a cut at all.

If we're looking at the topic of what's better for the middle class then the GST cut wasn't better than an income tax cut. The GST cut benefits those who spend a lot not the middle class and definitely not the working poor.

GST cut benefits everyone who spends which is everyone, it helps a little and is by no means a get rich scheme.

[normanchateau]

GST down from 7 to 5 percent, sounds like a tax cut to me.

Prior to the 2006 election, the Liberals promised an income tax cut. Harper promised a GST cut. Which one makes more economic sense. Here's what economists said:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/na...reac051201.html

Now if you have evidence that GST cuts are more effective than personal income tax cuts in promoting work, promoting saving, helping us invest more and raising living standards in the future, let's have a link to that evidence.

On a purchase of $50, the GST cut saves you a grand total of $1. Wow. An income tax cut would be far more equitable, since it would benefit everyone who works and pays income tax -- we wouldn't have to buy a new car or fridge or stereo system to realize noticeable savings. Only an incompetent like Harper would view a GST cut as more useful than a personal income tax cut.

But then, what can Canadians expect from this financial incompetent given:

"The 2008 budget set spending growth at 3.4 per cent this fiscal year. The department of finance reported last month that expenditures grew by 11.1 per cent in June alone and swelled an eye-popping 8.4 per cent in the first three months of the year. This is two-and-a-half times the 2008 budget plan.

“The Conservatives continue to claim they will still hit 3.4 per cent in spending growth for the year, but they’ve proven throughout their term in office that they can’t stop themselves from spending,” said Canadian taxpayers Federation research director Adam Taylor. “Their first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006/07. At the end of that year government receipts had jumped by 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount in 2007/08 was a 6.9 per cent increase.”

Do you deny these figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? What a financial moron the inept Harper is. No wonder Preston Manning threw him out as Finance Critic and replaced him with Herb Grubel, a fiscal conservative. Herb Grubel, not surprisingly, views income tax cuts as more helpful to the economy than GST cuts.

[blueblood]

Prior to the 2006 election, the Liberals promised an income tax cut. Harper promised a GST cut. Which one makes more economic sense. Here's what economists said:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/na...reac051201.html

Now if you have evidence that GST cuts are more effective than personal income tax cuts in promoting work, promoting saving, helping us invest more and raising living standards in the future, let's have a link to that evidence.

On a purchase of $50, the GST cut saves you a grand total of $1. Wow. An income tax cut would be far more equitable, since it would benefit everyone who works and pays income tax -- we wouldn't have to buy a new car or fridge or stereo system to realize noticeable savings. Only an incompetent like Harper would view a GST cut as more useful than a personal income tax cut.

But then, what can Canadians expect from this financial incompetent given:

"The 2008 budget set spending growth at 3.4 per cent this fiscal year. The department of finance reported last month that expenditures grew by 11.1 per cent in June alone and swelled an eye-popping 8.4 per cent in the first three months of the year. This is two-and-a-half times the 2008 budget plan.

“The Conservatives continue to claim they will still hit 3.4 per cent in spending growth for the year, but they’ve proven throughout their term in office that they can’t stop themselves from spending,” said Canadian taxpayers Federation research director Adam Taylor. “Their first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006/07. At the end of that year government receipts had jumped by 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount in 2007/08 was a 6.9 per cent increase.”

Do you deny these figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? What a financial moron the inept Harper is. No wonder Preston Manning threw him out as Finance Critic and replaced him with Herb Grubel, a fiscal conservative. Herb Grubel, not surprisingly, views income tax cuts as more helpful to the economy than GST cuts.

yes and the conference board supported the GST so what, a tax cut is a tax cut. What about those who don't pay income tax, don't they deserve a tax cut?

If you think Canadians spend 50 dollars in a year that's nonsense.

Too bad this "inept moron" is in majority territory. Too bad this country is not broke, too bad we are not in deficit. Too bad pot will still be illegal.

4 more years!!!

[normanchateau]

Too bad this "inept moron" is in majority territory. Too bad this country is not broke, too bad we are not in deficit.

4 more years!!!

Canada lead the G-7 when Harper became Prime Minister. Canada is now in sixth place in economic growth. Only one G-7 nation now ranks lower. This country was in deficit for two months and is close to being in deficit again because of the inept moron's squandering of the huge surplus he inherited from the previous government. Instead of using the huge surplus to lower income taxes, this financial incompetent increased government spending again and again and again.

But then, what can Canadians expect from this financial incompetent given:

"The 2008 budget set spending growth at 3.4 per cent this fiscal year. The department of finance reported last month that expenditures grew by 11.1 per cent in June alone and swelled an eye-popping 8.4 per cent in the first three months of the year. This is two-and-a-half times the 2008 budget plan.

“The Conservatives continue to claim they will still hit 3.4 per cent in spending growth for the year, but they’ve proven throughout their term in office that they can’t stop themselves from spending,” said Canadian taxpayers Federation research director Adam Taylor. “Their first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006/07. At the end of that year government receipts had jumped by 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount in 2007/08 was a 6.9 per cent increase.”

Do you deny these figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? What a financial moron the inept Harper is. No wonder Preston Manning threw him out as Finance Critic and replaced him with Herb Grubel, a fiscal conservative. Herb Grubel, not surprisingly, views income tax cuts as more helpful to the economy than GST cuts.

[marksman]

GST cut benefits everyone who spends which is everyone, it helps a little and is by no means a get rich scheme.

I didn't say it was a "get rich scheme". Income tax cuts help everyone who pays income taxes but GST cuts don't necessarily help everyone who buys. Not everything is taxed by the GST and poorer families generally don't buy as many things that are GST taxable. It benefits those who spend more - richer people - and doesn't give the same benefits to people who have less to spend. A GST tax cut may help a little but an income tax cut of the same magnitude would help more.

yes and the conference board supported the GST so what, a tax cut is a tax cut. What about those who don't pay income tax, don't they deserve a tax cut?

A tax cut is not a tax cut. Any economist can tell you that.

How many GST taxable products are those who don't pay income tax buying? If you're not paying income tax then you aren't making enough to pay for large amounts of GST taxable items.

When making a GST tax cut you've got to ask why does someone making less than $30K a year deserve less savings than someone making more than $200K?

[blueblood]

I didn't say it was a "get rich scheme". Income tax cuts help everyone who pays income taxes but GST cuts don't necessarily help everyone who buys. Not everything is taxed by the GST and poorer families generally don't buy as many things that are GST taxable. It benefits those who spend more - richer people - and doesn't give the same benefits to people who have less to spend. A GST tax cut may help a little but an income tax cut of the same magnitude would help more.

A tax cut is not a tax cut. Any economist can tell you that.

How many GST taxable products are those who don't pay income tax buying? If you're not paying income tax then you aren't making enough to pay for large amounts of GST taxable items.

When making a GST tax cut you've got to ask why does someone making less than $30K a year deserve less savings than someone making more than $200K?

It gives the same benefits to those who don't spend, they save when they buy groceries, which is better off for poor people who don't pay income tax at all.

[blueblood]

Canada lead the G-7 when Harper became Prime Minister. Canada is now in sixth place in economic growth. Only one G-7 nation now ranks lower. This country was in deficit for two months and is close to being in deficit again because of the inept moron's squandering of the huge surplus he inherited from the previous government. Instead of using the huge surplus to lower income taxes, this financial incompetent increased government spending again and again and again.

But then, what can Canadians expect from this financial incompetent given:

"The 2008 budget set spending growth at 3.4 per cent this fiscal year. The department of finance reported last month that expenditures grew by 11.1 per cent in June alone and swelled an eye-popping 8.4 per cent in the first three months of the year. This is two-and-a-half times the 2008 budget plan.

“The Conservatives continue to claim they will still hit 3.4 per cent in spending growth for the year, but they’ve proven throughout their term in office that they can’t stop themselves from spending,” said Canadian taxpayers Federation research director Adam Taylor. “Their first budget called for Ottawa’s expenditures to grow by 5.4 per cent in fiscal 2006/07. At the end of that year government receipts had jumped by 7.5 per cent. The 2007 budget plan announced an additional 5.6 per cent spending hike. The real amount in 2007/08 was a 6.9 per cent increase.”

Do you deny these figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? What a financial moron the inept Harper is. No wonder Preston Manning threw him out as Finance Critic and replaced him with Herb Grubel, a fiscal conservative. Herb Grubel, not surprisingly, views income tax cuts as more helpful to the economy than GST cuts.

Canada is the only G7 country with a surplus and still leads it in terms of financial stability.

If the best the left can do is namecalling this election is in the bag. Harper needs to spend to satisfy the left, once in majority, he'll cut taxes and spending, *scary scary

[Smallc]

Canada is the only G7 country with a surplus and still leads it in terms of financial stability.

Well, in reality, that had very little to do with Harper.

[Smallc]

http://scandalpedia.ca/Scandals.html

This must be what makes them better.

[normanchateau]

Harper needs to spend to satisfy the left, once in majority, he'll cut taxes and spending,

I see... Harper is the biggest spender in the history of Canada merely to satisfy the left...

And why exactly is he a social conservative, homophobe and religious nut? He's already got the votes of those people.

[marksman]

It gives the same benefits to those who don't spend, they save when they buy groceries, which is better off for poor people who don't pay income tax at all.

Those who don't spend don't get any benefit from a GST cut.

Basic groceries aren't taxed by the GST so a GST cut doesn't help poor people buying groceries. Plus rebates are given to people with low incomes so again a GST cut doesn't help as much as claimed. A GST cut helps rich people buying luxury goods quite a lot though.

How is it that you think low income Canadians who don't make enough to pay income tax are going to substantially benefit from cutting a consumption tax that doesn't apply to most basic necessities and that they already receive a rebate for?

Income tax cuts can increase the number of people who don't pay income tax. They can ensure that low income families get more money on every paycheck. This is money they can do whatever they want with - they don't have to spend anything to get a benefit from the cut.

[blueblood]

I see... Harper is the biggest spender in the history of Canada merely to satisfy the left...

And why exactly is he a social conservative, homophobe and religious nut? He's already got the votes of those people.

Citation that he's a religious nut.

He has satisfied some of the left, read a recent poll lately???

[blueblood]

Those who don't spend don't get any benefit from a GST cut.

Basic groceries aren't taxed by the GST so a GST cut doesn't help poor people buying groceries. Plus rebates are given to people with low incomes so again a GST cut doesn't help as much as claimed. A GST cut helps rich people buying luxury goods quite a lot though.

How is it that you think low income Canadians who don't make enough to pay income tax are going to substantially benefit from cutting a consumption tax that doesn't apply to most basic necessities and that they already receive a rebate for?

Income tax cuts can increase the number of people who don't pay income tax. They can ensure that low income families get more money on every paycheck. This is money they can do whatever they want with - they don't have to spend anything to get a benefit from the cut.

I'm pretty sure groceries are taxed, I recall paying GST at the grocery store.

Of course poor people spend money, just not a lot of it. What do they put their money in a sock and raid the soup kitchens?

Income tax is paid for right off your pay stub.

I'm all for income tax cuts, cut away, you can also cut away all those fancy social programs you like to support.

Punishing people for spending to improve our economy is also not a good way to go either. The GST cut has been very good for myself and a lot of Canadians.

[Foxer]

Those who don't spend don't get any benefit from a GST cut.

Actually - that's not quite accurate. For two reasons.

First - everyone spends. Everyone. Even people on welfare spend money on gst applicable items. For them every nickle counts. So there is no such thing as someone who doesn't spend.

But second and more important in the long run - Cuts to the GST tend to stimulate the economy and that tends to keep people working and cash flowing to the gov't via income and other taxes. The recent economic findings showed that we avoided recession due to increased consumer confidence and spending domestically. And the GST reduction plays a role in that.

If it costs less to buy things - people spend more. That's just the way it goes. There are those who claim the GST is a small amount of money, but if that were true it wouldn't result in a 5 billion dollar reduction in revenues for the gov't.

When people buy goods and services, that is what keeps people in those industries with a job and an income. And that is what keeps an economy going.

As to 'growth' - those figures can be a little misleading. Consider this - if your economy went from "100" to "5" because of a housing market crash (just to pick something at random ) and the next year went from a 5 to a 10 - it would be reported as a 100 percent growth. If your economy went from 100 to 90 because you'd done some smart fiscal things, and then climbed to 95 the next year, it would be reported as 5 percent growth.

Would that mean the country who had been devastated was somehow 'doing better'? OF course not.

Canada's economy is far better than most nations right now - we're doing pretty good. In fact - if you exclude ontario we're doing REALLY good, but the slow down in the states has forced our dollar up and demand for manufactured goods down, and there's really very little we can do except wait that out.

As to 'running a deficit in the first months' - that's just being silly on the parts of the liberals. If you get a paycheque on the second day of the month, but your rent is due on the first so you pay it, you wouldn't say "he ran a deficit for the first day of the month'. We had the money - it just hadn't been collected yet. We're running a surplus for the year and budgets are measured year by year - not month by month or week by week or hour by hour.

When we used to OVER collect by tens of billions of unnecessary tax dollars, it was different. Now that we're collecting reasonable amounts of money and leaving the rest in the hands of the Canadians who earned it, some months we're going to spend more than we take in, and some months we're going to take in more than we spend. At the end of the year - we still have more money than we spent.

[August1991]

Prior to the 2006 election, the Liberals promised an income tax cut. Harper promised a GST cut. Which one makes more economic sense. Here's what economists said:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/na...reac051201.html

Promises, promises, promises. Over the years, the Liberals have promised many things.

The problem is that the Liberals never deliver on their promises.

Harper promised to cut the GST and then he cut it.

This simple fact changes considerably the whole election. Harper is trustworthy. At some point in the future, the Liberals are going to understand this simple idea. Most still don't.

[August1991]

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion has moved to trump the Tories with a promise to double the Harper government's $1,200-a-year child care allowance and restore the court challenges program abolished by the Conservatives.

G & M

Giggle, giggle.

Dion promises to double the $1200 child care allowance.

Why doesn't he promise to triple it?

[HistoryBuff44]

G & M

Giggle, giggle.

Dion promises to double the $1200 child care allowance.

Why doesn't he promise to triple it?

I love election time, integrity goes right out the window. He spent a long time claiming it was so stupid and now hes gonna double it... awesome.

[marksman]

I'm pretty sure groceries are taxed, I recall paying GST at the grocery store.

Of course poor people spend money, just not a lot of it. What do they put their money in a sock and raid the soup kitchens?

Income tax is paid for right off your pay stub.

I'm all for income tax cuts, cut away, you can also cut away all those fancy social programs you like to support.

Punishing people for spending to improve our economy is also not a good way to go either. The GST cut has been very good for myself and a lot of Canadians.

Some groceries are GST taxable. But not the basics. Meat, bread, milk products etc. don't have GST. Stuff like candy is GST taxable. Prescription drugs aren't taxed by the GST and so on with some other medical services and rent. Check Revenue Canada's page if you want a complete list. You'll find groceries under zero rated items - items that have a 0% GST. You'll maybe have to click various links for complete lists.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/gst...l/menu-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/gst.../zrrtd-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/gm/4-3/4-3-e.html

If poor people don't spend a lot of money I think it's safe to say that a good portion of their money goes towards things that aren't GST taxable. My point was simply that income tax cuts are better for lower income people not cuts to consumption taxes. Most economists I've read agree - with the 1 disclaimer being that you have to cut the income taxes properly. Cutting the upper bracket obviously won't be better for lower income Canadians.

[M.Dancer]

Some groceries are GST taxable. But not the basics. Meat, bread, milk products etc. don't have GST. Stuff like candy is GST taxable. Prescription drugs aren't taxed by the GST and so on with some other medical services and rent. Check Revenue Canada's page if you want a complete list. You'll find groceries under zero rated items - items that have a 0% GST. You'll maybe have to click various links for complete lists.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/gst...l/menu-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/gst.../zrrtd-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/gm/4-3/4-3-e.html

If poor people don't spend a lot of money I think it's safe to say that a good portion of their money goes towards things that aren't GST taxable. My point was simply that income tax cuts are better for lower income people not cuts to consumption taxes. Most economists I've read agree - with the 1 disclaimer being that you have to cut the income taxes properly. Cutting the upper bracket obviously won't be better for lower income Canadians.

Food is not taxed. Dishwashing liquid, etc etc is.

[marksman]

Actually - that's not quite accurate. For two reasons.

First - everyone spends. Everyone. Even people on welfare spend money on gst applicable items. For them every nickle counts. So there is no such thing as someone who doesn't spend.

But second and more important in the long run - Cuts to the GST tend to stimulate the economy and that tends to keep people working and cash flowing to the gov't via income and other taxes. The recent economic findings showed that we avoided recession due to increased consumer confidence and spending domestically. And the GST reduction plays a role in that.

If it costs less to buy things - people spend more. That's just the way it goes. There are those who claim the GST is a small amount of money, but if that were true it wouldn't result in a 5 billion dollar reduction in revenues for the gov't.

When people buy goods and services, that is what keeps people in those industries with a job and an income. And that is what keeps an economy going.

The line about people not spending was in response to a line that said a GST cut "gives the same benefits to those who don't spend". I agree that everyone spends. It's hard to survive without spending. But someone who spends less won't get the same savings as someone who spends more.

As for the economic stimulus argument that's true in a way. But when comparing income tax cuts to GST cuts you can't say GST cuts stimulate the economy but income tax cuts don't. Increased take home income gives people more money to spend as well.

Comparing the relative benefits to the national economy of income tax cuts vs GST cuts is complicated but it wasn't really my point to get into that aspect of the tax cut. This topic was about the middle class and I've been saying that the GST cut was better for high income Canadians not the middle class and not lower income Canadians.

[marksman]

Food is not taxed. Dishwashing liquid, etc etc is.

Revenue Canada says some food is taxed. Reading some of the links can be amusing - who gets to define a sandwich?

110. Supplies of sandwiches and similar products other than when frozen are taxable. “Frozen” is understood to mean to be maintained at a temperature equal to or less than zero degrees Celsius. Cooled or refrigerated sandwiches are considered suitable for immediate consumption when kept at a temperature above zero degrees Celsius.

111. Sandwiches and similar products are regarded as something which can be consumed with little or no preparation, consisting of one or more pieces of bread, with meat, cheese, savoury or other topping or filling, all of which are suitable for immediate consumption.

[M.Dancer]

Revenue Canada says some food is taxed. Reading some of the links can be amusing - who gets to define a sandwich?

I should say, food as in groceries aren't taxed. Take out meals are, even if sold in a market.

[marksman]

I should say, food as in groceries aren't taxed. Take out meals are, even if sold in a market.

I know I'm knitpicking here but some food as in groceries are also taxed. Carbonated beverages, non-carbonated beverages like juice that's less than 25% natural fruit juice, chips. Some won't consider those groceries but some do. But you're right that most of the taxable items are essentially take out meals not groceries - like single serving ice cream.