moderateamericain Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Figured this would be a great topic to discuss. We would get some passoniate responses either way. First a few things Gun control 2nd Amendment My personal Belief I believe that the 2nd amendment is one of the pillars of democracy. The ability to protect are families and ourselves from individuals and GOVERNMENT is a sacred right. And its one I would die to protect. Gun control is a violation of my civil rights. Now I don't think people need fully automatic weapons to protect there families. But I don't think a semi automatic ar-15 qualifies as a danger to society either. If you look at the top 10 guns used in crime it does not even make the list. Anyways thats my 2 cents. Discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drea Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Figured this would be a great topic to discuss. We would get some passoniate responses either way.First a few things Gun control 2nd Amendment My personal Belief I believe that the 2nd amendment is one of the pillars of democracy. The ability to protect are families and ourselves from individuals and GOVERNMENT is a sacred right. And its one I would die to protect. Gun control is a violation of my civil rights. Now I don't think people need fully automatic weapons to protect there families. But I don't think a semi automatic ar-15 qualifies as a danger to society either. If you look at the top 10 guns used in crime it does not even make the list. Anyways thats my 2 cents. Discuss. Good Gawd -- keep your guns, you are going to need them. Katrina was a good test on how easy it is to take guns from Americans during a crisis. Hide your guns if you have to, but make sure you have them... the religious are trying their damndest to usher in Armaggedon and they don't want you to accidentally shoot Jeezzuz! when he comes to nuke all the gays and abortionists! Seriously... five years ago I was against all handgun ownership -- now I am making sure my family is armed and ready (albeit with just plain old rifles). IMO, I was always told that the second ammendment was there so that the citizens could protect themselves from the government when the time came -- that time is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Good Gawd -- keep your guns, you are going to need them. Katrina was a good test on how easy it is to take guns from Americans during a crisis. Hide your guns if you have to, but make sure you have them... the religious are trying their damndest to usher in Armaggedon and they don't want you to accidentally shoot Jeezzuz! when he comes to nuke all the gays and abortionists! What a load....we have so many guns and such easy access that even Canada whines about them in Toronto. It's a fair trade...the right to smoke dope and the right to bear arms. IMO, I was always told that the second ammendment was there so that the citizens could protect themselves from the government when the time came -- that time is now. Leave America to the Americans please....but the humor is always appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drea Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 What a load....we have so many guns and such easy access that even Canada whines about them in Toronto. It's a fair trade...the right to smoke dope and the right to bear arms. Aren't you glad!? I am. Perhaps this, bc2004, is the ONLY topic you and I will ever agree on. Americans need guns to protect themselves from their government. And Canadians will need them too. I admit that I have changed my position on gun control... because one just never knows what a government is capable of... I wanna gun! LOL Leave America to the Americans please....but the humor is always appreciated.Then leave this Canadian forum and find an equal one in the US if you don't like seeing Canadians' opinions on American issues.Either that or just shut up! That'd be good too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) Aren't you glad!? I am. Perhaps this, bc2004, is the ONLY topic you and I will ever agree on. Americans need guns to protect themselves from their government. And Canadians will need them too. I admit that I have changed my position on gun control... because one just never knows what a government is capable of... I wanna gun! LOL I don't own guns to protect myself from the government taking my rights...I own guns to shoot my fellow citizens who try to take my rights. Then leave this Canadian forum and find an equal one in the US if you don't like seeing Canadians' opinions on American issues.Either that or just shut up! That'd be good too! No, I just love to jerk your nicotine stained chain. Neener neener! Edited August 31, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drea Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I don't own guns to protect myself from the government taking my rights...I own guns to shoot my fellow citizens who try to take my rights. Are you so dense as to think that individual citizens can take away your rights? Holy shit, I'd love to meet this all-powerful citizen! Government has the power to take away (or implement) rights -- individual citizens do not. Clue Bat says "Proof that yes, the American populace has indeed been Dumbed Down " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Are you so dense as to think that individual citizens can take away your rights? Holy shit, I'd love to meet this all-powerful citizen! But you just said they can...make up your mind (if it can). Government has the power to take away (or implement) rights -- individual citizens do not. Obviously you know nothing about either. Rights do not come from government. Clue Bat says "Proof that yes, the American populace has indeed been Dumbed Down " Got dope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Rights do not come from government. So do they just grow on trees or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drea Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 But you just said they can...make up your mind (if it can).Obviously you know nothing about either. Rights do not come from government. Rights come from Santa? Or god? Ok, I'll bite -- seriously, where do rights come from? Do they grow on trees? Joshua trees? Do you go out during harvest season and pick the ripe rights? Fug. This is too funny... but I gotta get back to work, we are renovating. Oh, btw, I took two weeks off work and quit smoking -- arrrgh! We quit pot and cigs OMG! I do not yet know if I will survive this! LOL So I am allowed to be cranky -- so there!! Cheers to you BC2004! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) Rights come from Santa? Or god? Ok, I'll bite -- seriously, where do rights come from? Do they grow on trees? Joshua trees? Do you go out during harvest season and pick the ripe rights? Look, you are obviously at a disadvantage here. No sense in me running circles around your understanding of a "foreign" concept and constitution. But the Americans invented the internet and Google just for people like you....do some research on inalienable/natural rights. It is what makes America fundamentally different from Canada (and a manarchy that we kicked in the ass). Here is a start for you: http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm Fug. This is too funny... but I gotta get back to work, we are renovating.Oh, btw, I took two weeks off work and quit smoking -- arrrgh! We quit pot and cigs OMG! I do not yet know if I will survive this! LOL So I am allowed to be cranky -- so there!! Cheers to you BC2004! Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Edited August 31, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think the government of Canada should get the DEA to extradite for trial gun manufacturers whose weapons end up here. If THEY can go after Emery, why can't WE go after Smith and Wesson? Screw THEIR rights. We have our own rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think the government of Canada should get the DEA to extradite for trial gun manufacturers whose weapons end up here. If THEY can go after Emery, why can't WE go after Smith and Wesson? Screw THEIR rights. We have our own rights. Nope...there are more rights for Canada in a box of children's breakfast cereal. America's rights are often imitated, but seldom duplicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I hearing a buzzing sound. Sort of like a bug zapper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 So do they just grow on trees or something? Thank you for confirming the huge divide that exists between us with respect to the nature of government and "rights". It is just as I suspected, but that's OK (and the reason for a "border"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Many of you would probably think I'm a liberal, but I don't see what the big deal is about gun ownership. I don't think the 2nd Amendment was designed nor intended to mean society should be the O-K Corral, but our interpretation of the amendment and gun laws pretty much leaves the issue of gun ownership immutable. I would be more interested in severly punishing the criminal use of guns, but I see nothing wrong with owning guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Thank you for confirming the huge divide that exists between us with respect to the nature of government and "rights". It is just as I suspected, but that's OK (and the reason for a "border"). I thought your border was to protect you from things like pot. Thomas Jefferson surely wouldn't have disagreed with your right to that protection would he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 Fug. This is too funny... but I gotta get back to work, we are renovating. When you come back, can you come back sober? Don't get me wrong, your rants are funny, but some of us would like to have a legitimate discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_puck Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I believe that the 2nd amendment is one of the pillars of democracy. The ability to protect are families and ourselves from individuals and GOVERNMENT is a sacred right. And its one I would die to protect. Gun control is a violation of my civil rights. Now I don't think people need fully automatic weapons to protect there families. But I don't think a semi automatic ar-15 qualifies as a danger to society either. If you look at the top 10 guns used in crime it does not even make the list. Anyways thats my 2 cents. Discuss. I look at it from a cost benefit perspective as opposed to a moral one. How many benefits has modern gun ownership brought compared to what would have happened under prohibition. Even better, we can break it down by groups. Do we have a net benefit from teflon coated bullets that can go through a police officers bullet proof vest? What is the net benefit from automatic machine guns ? What is the cost/benefit of a shotgun in rural Alberta. What is the benefit of a semi-automatic pistol in downtown Detroit? I think we should weigh the costs against the benefits. I grew up in a rural area where people used to bring guns to school during hunting season and nobody thought about it (this was pre columbine). I don't see the harm of a hunting gun in a rural area. On the other hand, a machine pistol with telfon coated bullets is silly. Personally, I think we should allow long hunting rifles, license hand guns, ban silly weapons and "cop killer" bullets. You could leave some of the regulation to the cities. If Toronto wants to ban all guns, thats their business. If some rural town in Alberta wants to loosen regulations somewhat, let them. The government regulates what kinds of drugs I can possess. The government regulates the car i drive. The government tells me how fast I can drive If the government can ban light bulbs and license dogs, I see what makes owning a bazooka so special (some guy at the NRA said people should be allowed to own them on principle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I thought your border was to protect you from things like pot. Thomas Jefferson surely wouldn't have disagreed with your right to that protection would he? Pot is not an inalienable or enumerated right. It probably wouldn't pass "Jefferson" tests, and isn't even legal in Canada AFAIK. Hell, Canada banned cannabis at the federal level years before the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I look at it from a cost benefit perspective as opposed to a moral one.How many benefits has modern gun ownership brought compared to what would have happened under prohibition. Even better, we can break it down by groups. Do we have a net benefit from teflon coated bullets that can go through a police officers bullet proof vest? What is the net benefit from automatic machine guns ? What is the cost/benefit of a shotgun in rural Alberta. What is the benefit of a semi-automatic pistol in downtown Detroit? I think we should weigh the costs against the benefits. I grew up in a rural area where people used to bring guns to school during hunting season and nobody thought about it (this was pre columbine). I don't see the harm of a hunting gun in a rural area. On the other hand, a machine pistol with telfon coated bullets is silly. Personally, I think we should allow long hunting rifles, license hand guns, ban silly weapons and "cop killer" bullets. You could leave some of the regulation to the cities. If Toronto wants to ban all guns, thats their business. If some rural town in Alberta wants to loosen regulations somewhat, let them. The government regulates what kinds of drugs I can possess. The government regulates the car i drive. The government tells me how fast I can drive If the government can ban light bulbs and license dogs, I see what makes owning a bazooka so special (some guy at the NRA said people should be allowed to own them on principle) Thank you for posting on topic, most of the rest of the posters are using my topic to simply attack eachother. I wish mod's deleted post that were simply personal attacks. Anyways, Im not advocating private citizens having mac 10's with teflon bullets. But I dont see why a semi automatic AR 15 (like an M16) is a threat to Citizen on Citizen killings by gun. They simply have not been used for that purpose that much. the top 10 guns used are all shot guns and pistols. And you can make a fairly persuasive argument that shotguns are the best weapon to keep in the home because of the way the it fires. (less likely to blow through the wall and kill someone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drea Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) When you come back, can you come back sober? Don't get me wrong, your rants are funny, but some of us would like to have a legitimate discussion. are you still on that Meth? How's the face? I hear that Proactive helps -- Britany Spears endorses it, will help clear up your meth-face pimples. Give it a try... that way you can get out of the house once in a while. Sure will go along way to make you feel better about yourself Shady. Cheers! Edited September 1, 2008 by Drea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Figured this would be a great topic to discuss. We would get some passoniate responses either way.First a few things Gun control 2nd Amendment My personal Belief I believe that the 2nd amendment is one of the pillars of democracy. The ability to protect are families and ourselves from individuals and GOVERNMENT is a sacred right. And its one I would die to protect. Gun control is a violation of my civil rights. Now I don't think people need fully automatic weapons to protect there families. But I don't think a semi automatic ar-15 qualifies as a danger to society either. If you look at the top 10 guns used in crime it does not even make the list. Anyways thats my 2 cents. Discuss. How do you protect yourself from a government that has the authority to limit the size or number of guns you are allowed to have? Why shouldn't I have the right to own a tank, a missle launcher or a nuclear device? Should people have the right to bear Tasers to protect themselves from the police? Perhaps there's some kind of vest a person could wear that absorbs the jolt and sends it back. I think the best way to protect ourselves from the government is to hard-wire it to the Internet. Turn the Telescreens around and the reasons people feel they need to protect themselves from the government would evaporate. So would most of the crime in society I bet. I don't see how you can talk about the pillars of democracy without first discussing the ground upon which they rest. I have natural rights that precede the inalienable or enumerated rights that others would deign to describe for me, especially governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 How do you protect yourself from a government that has the authority to limit the size or number of guns you are allowed to have? Why shouldn't I have the right to own a tank, a missle launcher or a nuclear device? Should people have the right to bear Tasers to protect themselves from the police? Perhaps there's some kind of vest a person could wear that absorbs the jolt and sends it back.I think the best way to protect ourselves from the government is to hard-wire it to the Internet. Turn the Telescreens around and the reasons people feel they need to protect themselves from the government would evaporate. So would most of the crime in society I bet. I don't see how you can talk about the pillars of democracy without first discussing the ground upon which they rest. I have natural rights that precede the inalienable or enumerated rights that others would deign to describe for me, especially governments. Your Natural rights do exsist, but if you want to be realistic about protecting them, You have to realize that governments throughout history have proven extremely efficent at one things. Stamping out natural rights. You might call it paranoid or "gun nut" But heres the reality. 1 history has proven me right. 2 There are great examples of countries where gun ownership is allowed. (Ex. Switzerland) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I am being realistic about protecting my rights. I think outlawing secrecy and total public awareness of what the government is doing is the only real way to do that. I suspect the government would rather let us have all the guns we want than give us accountability and transparency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I am being realistic about protecting my rights. I think outlawing secrecy and total public awareness of what the government is doing is the only real way to do that. I suspect the government would rather let us have all the guns we want than give us accountability and transparency. Fair enough. However do you ever forseeing this become a reality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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