McCain picks woman for VP slot

[jefferiah]

And nothing more that you consider of any worth whatsoever? Not one thing?

Am I saying that Obama did absolutely nothing other than make several trips to the washroom?

Of course not, Stephen, he also wrote two autobiographies.

[jefferiah]

Actually, you oppose Barack Obama.

I do oppose Obama! I do not trust his government redistribution schemes. I think the Democrats have moved further to the left. I favor tax cuts to the wealthy since the wealthy pay higher taxes in the first place. Punishing economic success is not a good way to encourage your economy to grow. I do not trust that he spent 20 years in Wrights church without knowing what he was about. Apparently Wright all of a sudden became radical just last week. And despite the women who have been cued to faint over him and the great charisma the media keeps telling me he possesses, I don't find him all that personable either.

But none of this was the point. We were talking about Palin. Some people dismissed her as being inexperienced. And when we point out this vice presidential candidate is probably just as experienced as the top of the democratic ticket, you folks get mighty offended. We were not discussing policy but experience. You are the ones who said she didnt have it. We are the ones pointing out she's got just as much as Barack. And now you've taken to crying about it. It's ok to poke fun at small town mayors and Alaskans, and people who cling to guns and religion, but make people chuckle at Barack and all of a sudden you've all become spokespeople for the Community Organizers Anti-Defamation League.

Edited September 7, 2008 by jefferiah

[Pliny]

Palin wrote, "Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support." What are "explicit sex-ed programs"? Are such things taught in high schools? Examples? Anyone?

Putting condoms on bananas, maybe? Masturbation and oral techniques? I had to wait until I was in the armed forces before I got my Masturbation papers.

[August1991]

August:

If you're talking about "community organizer" as codeword for "uppity Negro" I get it. Otherwise I can';t for the life of me imaghine why that would be a term of derision.

The colour of a community organizers skin has nothing to do with the irrelevance of the job.

Outside of a narrow group of left-wingers, most people would mentally roll their eyes if a setamate in an airplane answered "community organizer" to the question "What do you do for a living?"

Palin's remark about this in her speech struck a nerve because she said clearly what many people think.

Actually, you oppose Barack Obama. Which is a perfectly valid, and defensible position. However, you're unable to come up with any rational reason or facts for doing so. You're convinced there must be some, but you lack the intellectual integrity or rigor to actually figure out what they might be. So, you resort to jibes and silliness to cover up your lack of substance. American Woman was right about you.

If you're going to criticize Obama, and there are many reasons to criticize him, for example, his untenable position on Afghanistan and his weak heath care proposals, at the very least offer us some analysis, perhaps one fact, an informed opinion, anything, worthy of consideration.

If I understand properly, you think Obama is not left enough?

Best, I suggest that you get a government grant, become a community organizer and convince all those stupid people of the wisdom of your progressive ways.

[Pliny]

Well, I read the whole debate between Stevie and Jeffie here.

I found a telling trait in the following post by Stevie. Seems intolerant, even "hateful". He states he is frightened, I would say "easily-frightened" to the point of being "irrational"and "fanatical". Of course accusations of "anti-intellectual" effectively nullifies any chance of intellectual debate, a rather "anti-intellectual" stand, in my view.

What kind of Christian is Obama?

Not so much "funny" as "frightening." It's a cruel irony, and frightening, that control over the most economically and militarily powerful country in the world--the country blessed with the greatest capacity in all of human history to do good--might remain in the hands of close-minded, hateful, avaricious, irrational, easily-frightened, anti-intellectual--and often very, very stupid--Christian fanatics.

You were probably just joking though, right Stevie? Sorry if I got that all wrong. Carry on.

[Riverwind]

I think this has to do with the fact that Obama is black and Palin is a woman.

I could not disagree more. I think this has everything to do with culture war between left leaning liberals in NY and California and the conservative middle america. The Obama and Palin are the proxies for this war at this time and their race/gender has nothing to do with it. I think the op you quoted as a point and that there is a lot of hate in the American left that stems from the bitterness over 2000 and 2004. As for me, the only reason I would ever side with pro-gun, pro-iraq, anti-abortionist creationist is because I truly feel the democratic party has been taken over by an even worse group of religious fanatics who follow the teachings of Rev. Gore. Edited September 7, 2008 by Riverwind

[kimmy]

Am I saying that Obama did absolutely nothing other than make several trips to the washroom?

Of course not, Stephen, he also wrote two autobiographies.

Writing an autobiography is an accomplishment that makes you worthy of having an autobiography!

Much in the same sense that leading your campaign to be President proves that you're leader enough to be President!

-k

[WIP]

The colour of a community organizers skin has nothing to do with the irrelevance of the job.

Outside of a narrow group of left-wingers, most people would mentally roll their eyes if a setamate in an airplane answered "community organizer" to the question "What do you do for a living?"

Palin's remark about this in her speech struck a nerve because she said clearly what many people think.

Oh! I guess she could by saying what people are thinking all right, if you can explain to me why her speech writer turned "community organizer" into something derogatory, as if working for the community is reprehensible! And you wonder why people get suspicious that a new coded racial attack phrase is being created along the lines of: "urban crime" and "states rights."

And how long was Obama a community organizer anyway? Does Sarah Palin's mediocre resume have anything to compare with being president of the Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago? I guess that's on par with being a TV sports reporter for people who think the ability to read a speech off a teleprompter is all of the qualifications needed to be literally one heartbeat away from the presidency.

[kimmy]

It seems that the only candid viewpoints on the Palin matter are to be found in other than the American press.

I have found I'm reading a lot more coverage from England than the US as well. It seems a lot more detached and rational, while much of the US coverage seems to be either vapid or hand-wringing or walking on eggshells or afraid to discuss elephants in the room.

I particularly liked this bit from the article you linked to:

In an age when politics is choreographed, voters watch out for the moments when the public-relations facade breaks down and venom pours through the cracks. Their judgment is rarely favourable when it does. Barack Obama knows it. All last week, he was warning American liberals to stay away from the Palin family. He understands better than his supporters that it is not a politician's enemies who lose elections, but his friends.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

....Does Sarah Palin's mediocre resume have anything to compare with being president of the Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago?

Yes...she was a mother to her children. Do you really think the average American voter gives a damn about the Harvard Law Review?

[WIP]

Yes...she was a mother to her children. Do you really think the average American voter gives a damn about the Harvard Law Review?

Well, by your standard, she could run for the Supreme Court too!

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, by your standard, she could run for the Supreme Court too!

....more importantly, I would know how to win an election against elitists like you.....Harvard Law Review...you must be joking. Does the Harvard Law Review make them swoon in Canada too?

[kimmy]

Oh! I guess she could by saying what people are thinking all right, if you can explain to me why her speech writer turned "community organizer" into something derogatory, as if working for the community is reprehensible!

"Community organizer" at best might have the connotation of people who do good things, like the Elizabeth Fry Society or John Howard Society. At worst, of course, they bring to mind professional demogogues like Al Sharpton. In Obama's case, as I understand it, his "community organizer" experience related to a group that lobbied for affordable housing projects. I suspect that "community organizer" is at least more flattering than "lobbyist"...

There are few occupations that are reprehensible, but that doesn't mean that all are equally applicable leadership experience.

And how long was Obama a community organizer anyway? Does Sarah Palin's mediocre resume have anything to compare with being president of the Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago?

I suspect the Obama team doesn't play up that aspect of his career because his team knows that the public hates lawyers even more than they hate journalists.

-k

[margrace]

Read this on another forum, it is written by Charley James and is entitled Alaskans speak (in a frightened whisper) Palin is racist, sexist, mean and vindictive.

"So Sambl beat the bitch" comment by Palin in a public restaurant with many people around. This was apparently her comment about Obama winning the nomination.

She also is reported to call the Native People of Alaska "Artic Arabs" nice lady aye

[CANADIEN]

The colour of a community organizers skin has nothing to do with the irrelevance of the job.

Outside of a narrow group of left-wingers, most people would mentally roll their eyes if a setamate in an airplane answered "community organizer" to the question "What do you do for a living?"

Palin's remark about this in her speech struck a nerve because she said clearly what many people think.

While the term "community organizers" is indeed a bizarre one, the type of activity it covers is most definitely not. Setting-up training programs for laid off people, helping to find mentors for youths at risk, supporting the formation of tenant groups and organizing voter registration drives is not irrelevant work. And it is done by people at all ends of the political spectrum. Governor Palin's remarks hit a nerve because it dismissed not just Barack Obama, but people who are doing their best to help people improve their lives while she was running a small municpal government in such a way than an administrator had to be hired to take over day to day operations.

People are free to think that past experience as the head of community organisations is no preparation to become Preseident of a country of more than 300 million people, but neither is a so-so work as mayor of a town of about 7000 inhabitants.

So, if Governor Palin wants to use her slur as a campaign slogan, fine. The reply should be "Somebody had to be hired to make the decisions for Palin".

[CANADIEN]

"Community organizer" at best might have the connotation of people who do good things, like the Elizabeth Fry Society or John Howard Society. At worst, of course, they bring to mind professional demogogues like Al Sharpton. In Obama's case, as I understand it, his "community organizer" experience related to a group that lobbied for affordable housing projects. I suspect that "community organizer" is at least more flattering than "lobbyist"...

So... lobbying for an affordable housing project is one of the things Obama did as the head of a community organization. Hiring a Washington lobbyist to get the town of Wasilla one of the highest ratio of earmark dollars to pppulation in the US was a landmark of Mayor Palin's tenure.

[betsy]

Oh! I guess she could by saying what people are thinking all right, if you can explain to me why her speech writer turned "community organizer" into something derogatory, as if working for the community is reprehensible!

Simple. It is a sarcastic response to the way the Democrats had turned up their uppity noses and implied being a Mayor of a small town, and being a Governor of Alaska is something to be ashamed of...like as if working for small towns and far-flung states is degrading and that mayors of small towns and other states far from civilization do not have the same governing responsibilities.

How do you think people in these small towns feel being flatly told working for them does not count?

How do you think people of Alaska feel? Palin was responding to the insults hurled to her and Alaskans. She was responding to the Democrats' derisive attitude towards small town America!

That was very un-diplomatic of the Democrats! And here is Obama spouting about diplomacy!

And you wonder why people get suspicious that a new coded racial attack phrase is being created along the lines of: "urban crime" and "states rights."

Alaska is far from civilization...therefore it doesn't count? Obama had had casually dismissed the threat that Iran could pose to us based on its size: it is tiny.

Eh? Come again?

Besides, what's all this pre-occupation about size?

Edited September 7, 2008 by betsy

[Stephen Best]

Yes...she was a mother to her children.

And not a very good one at that, some mothers are saying.

Perhaps the reason recent Republican presidents were so poor is that Republican standards for high office are so low. Now being a mother is sufficient to get the nuclear codes. Beyond having a body temperature above that of the room, I can't think of a less rational "qualification" for Vice President. As for someone who would offer it, one can only

[CANADIEN]

Simple. It is a sarcastic response to the way the Democrats had turned up their uppity noses and implied being a Mayor of a small town, and being a Governor of Alaska is something to be ashamed of...like as if working for small towns and far-flung states is degrading and that mayors of small towns and other states far from civilization do not have the same governing responsibilities.

How do you think people in these small towns feel being flatly told working for them does not count?

How do you think people of Alaska feel? Palin was responding to the insults hurled to her and Alaskans. She was responding to the Democrats' derisive attitude towards small town America!

That was very un-diplomatic of the Democrats! And here is Obama spouting about diplomacy!

Alaska is far from civilization...therefore it doesn't count? Obama had had casually dismissed the threat that Iran could pose to us based on its size: it is tiny.

Eh? Come again?

Besides, what's all this pre-occupation about size?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

For over a year, the rallying cry of the anti-Obama clan has been "he has been a member of the US Senate for less than a term, that's not enough qualification to be US President". If that's not qualification enough, neither is having been the Governor of ANY state of ANY size for less than two years. If I was from Alaska, what I would find offensive is the idea that Governor Palin should be dispensed from the same standards that have beenj set by those who are now supporting her.

And as somebody who grew up in a town smaller than Wasilla, what I find offensive is your "they're dissing small towns" argument. Let's face it. The challenges facing municipal politicians, no matter the municipality's size or location, have nothing to do with the challenges facing the President of the United States. There is nothing to be ashamed of in dealing with the construction of a local sports centre, or the running of the local police department, or the choice of books for the local library (although the way Mayor Palin dealt with those issues may be debatable). But success in those responsibilities does not mean that one will be able to stare down Vladimir Putin, respond adequately to a major terrorist attack or deal with global warming. So far, nothing coming from Palin's mouth tells me whether or not she will be able to do that.

The Democrats have not dissed Alaska, they have not dissed Wasilla, they have not dissed small towns, and they have not said anything about experience that has not been said by Republicans.

[CANADIEN]

And not a very good one at that, some mothers are saying.

Perhaps the reason recent Republican presidents were so poor is that Republican standards for high office are so low. Now being a mother is sufficient to get the nuclear codes. Beyond having a body temperature above that of the room, I can't think of a less rational "qualification" for Vice President. As for someone who would offer it, one can only

Need a shovel to dig yourself even further?

[Guest American Woman]

I could not disagree more. I think this has everything to do with culture war between left leaning liberals in NY and California and the conservative middle america.

Fyi, there are "left leaning liberals" in "middle America," too. We don't all live in NY and California by a long shot. If you want to incorrectly "lump" liberals that way, you should also be lumping the conservatives into the Bible Belt.

The Obama and Palin are the proxies for this war at this time and their race/gender has nothing to do with it.

They aren't proxies so much as they are candidates, and it's their views that are garnering the reactions people are having/are being perceived to have.

I think the op you quoted as a point and that there is a lot of hate in the American left that stems from the bitterness over 2000 and 2004.

And where does the "a lot of hate" in the American right come from?

As for me, the only reason I would ever side with pro-gun, pro-iraq, anti-abortionist creationist is because I truly feel the democratic party has been taken over by an even worse group of religious fanatics who follow the teachings of Rev. Gore.

There's a shocker. The one-issue voters aren't difficult to pick out.

But I have to say, your reference to "religious fanatics" regarding "Rev." Gore is something that I figured was beneath you. It just makes you sound like another mindless fanatic.

Edited September 7, 2008 by American Woman

[Argus]

....more importantly, I would know how to win an election against elitists like you.....Harvard Law Review...you must be joking. Does the Harvard Law Review make them swoon in Canada too?

God forbid we should want a world leader who, you know, is EDU-Kated! We don't want none of that thar EDUCATION! We want us a good old boy who can sit round tha cracker barrel and chew tobaky!

Sorry, but I prefer my political leaders to be uhm, smart, and educated, and savvy about the important things they'll be dealing with. When some political aid comes into the oval office to tell the president there's a war in South Osettia he shouldn't be faced with a blank look - followed by questions about whether that's a continent or a country or an ocean.

[Argus]

Putting condoms on bananas, maybe? Masturbation and oral techniques? I had to wait until I was in the armed forces before I got my Masturbation papers.

As I said earlier, in 1995 only 9% of American teenagers were given ONLY abstinence as "sex education" as in - no physical knowledge about how procreation works or what puberty is all about. By 2002 the figure had risen to 20% because ultra religious folks like Palin seem to feel that if the kids are taught the mechanics of how sex works they'll go out and have sex. All the statistical studies done everyone on the planet contradict this, especially those done in the US, but they cling to their anti-sex notions in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Quite possibly her daughter, having been taught nothing about sex, was one of those girls who thought "you can't get pregnant the first time" or "if you jump up and down right after you can't get pregnant" or "if he pulls out at the last second you can't get pregnant" or one of the countless other myths ignorant adolescents have about sex.

[Argus]

But none of this was the point. We were talking about Palin. Some people dismissed her as being inexperienced. And when we point out this vice presidential candidate is probably just as experienced as the top of the democratic ticket, you folks get mighty offended.

Prior to his appointment of Palin I was strongly leaning towards McCain because of Obama's inexperience. However, don't even try to tell me she has as much experience as Obama because in my estimation they're not even in the same league. She is a very small-town mayor who became governor of a tiny, mostly rural state (population wise) only a year and a half ago. Her experience with, knowledge of, and interest in, the big wide world was virtually zero prior to last week.

Frankly, the thought that a man of his advanced years would appoint such a frighteningly weak vice president has made me reconsider. Sarah Palin might be a very nice lady - though I can only snort in disbelief at her absurd sexual mores - but she's in no way ready to even take over the job as mayor of Chicago (5 x the pop of Alaska), much less President of the United States.

[Argus]

Yes...she was a mother to her children. Do you really think the average American voter gives a damn about the Harvard Law Review?

I dunno, which one gives one better preparation for understanding the laws you are going to be writing?