Putin Listens to his Toaster

M.Dancer · August 28, 2008

Mr Putin told CNN US citizens were "in the area" during the conflict over South Ossetia and were "taking direct orders from their leaders".
He said his defence officials had told him the provocation was to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.

The White House dismissed the allegations as "not rational".

Mr Putin said in the interview: "The fact is that US citizens were indeed in the area in conflict during the hostilities.
"It should be admitted that they would do so only following direct orders from their leaders."

"The suspicion arises that someone in the United States especially created this conflict with the aim of making the situation more tense and creating a competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of US president."
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino rejected the allegation.

"To suggest that the United States orchestrated this on behalf of a political candidate - it sounds not rational," she said.

"Those claims first and foremost are patently false, but it also sounds like his defence officials who said they believed this to be true are giving him really bad advice."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm

It would seem with Russia failing to get the expected support for their aggression, Putin is taking a page from the Ghaddafi/Chavez school of wild accusations. What makes it all the more absurd, if the goal was to bump a politcial hopeful, it is noteworthy that it took days for the Georgian invasion to make the front page in the US. The one thing you can be sure of, if the White House wants something to be front and centre in the media, they know how to inform an editor.

GostHacked · August 28, 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm
It would seem with Russia failing to get the expected support for their aggression, Putin is taking a page from the Ghaddafi/Chavez school of wild accusations. What makes it all the more absurd, if the goal was to bump a politcial hopeful, it is noteworthy that it took days for the Georgian invasion to make the front page in the US. The one thing you can be sure of, if the White House wants something to be front and centre in the media, they know how to inform an editor.

And on the same note, if the White House does not want something on the front page, they know how to inform an editor. Goes both ways. it is called Propaganda .. er Public Relations.

M.Dancer · August 28, 2008

And on the same note, if the White House does not want something on the front page, they know how to inform an editor. Goes both ways. it is called Propaganda .. er Public Relations.

So you think that would work outside of Russia? I can see it now....

Hello NYT? this is the Whitehouse press office....just so you know, nothing much is happening in Georgia...btw, did you hear, BIG NEWS....Spears won't be at MTV awards....

WIP · August 28, 2008

Yeah! And we could all laugh about wild accusations if it wasn't for the pattern of lies, deceit and cover-ups conducted by the Bush Administration over the last 7 years. A few years back, torture and secret prisons in foreign countries were wild accusations also. So who are we to believe now that the pattern of disinformation, the word of U.S. officials is no better than that of Cuba, Russia or the Iranians!

Let's see what can't be denied:

Backing Georgia

Published: July 16 2008 03:00 | Last updated: July 16 2008 03:00

If proof were needed of the significance of the crisis facing the troubled Caucasus state of Georgia, it came yesterday with the start of exercises involving 1,000 US troops.

US officials insist the long-planned wargames have nothing to do with the recent dispute between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But they give Washington a chance to support pro-west Tbilisi at a critical time.

And now we are told there was no reason for Georgia's tin pot dictator to believe that he had U.S. backing to forcibly retake the breakaway territories! Too bad they didn't pay attention to other free advice offered by the Financial Times, afterall, the same story notes that Condoleeza Rice visited the capital during the training exercise:

Certainly, the west should try to engage Russia in talks over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as long as they are based on preserving Georgian sovereignty. It should also redouble efforts to restrain hotheads in Tbilisi from resorting to violence. But when Russia bullies Georgia. the west must back its vulnerable ally.

Sounds almost prophetic! Except that Bush Admin. left Saashkaveli on his own. From his own words before the invasion, he certainly gave the appearance that he thought the U.S. was behind him!

MOSCOW, Aug 8 (Reuters) - The commander of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia confirmed on Friday that Georgian troops had broken through into the centre of Tskinvali, the capital of Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia, Interfax news agency reported."The fighing rages in the centre of the town," it quoted Marat Kulakhmetov, who is now in Tskhinvali, as saying by telephone.Earlier, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said Georgian troops had seized the "greater part" of Tskhinvali. (Writing by Oleg Shchedrov; Editing by Giles Elgood)

And on the day of the Georgian Invasion of the breakaway capital, a State Dept. flunkie issued this statement:

"We support Georgia's territorial integrity and call for an immediate cease-fire. We urge all parties, including Georgians, South Ossetians and Russians to de-escalate and avoid conflict," Gallegos said.He added that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other senior officials had spoken with and continued to work with the parties to seek an end to hostilities. The United States was also talking with its European allies about how to end the conflict, Gallegos said.

And what did Condi have to say:

WASHINGTON, Aug 8 (Reuters) - The United States told Russia on Friday to withdraw its forces from U.S. ally Georgia, stop its air attacks and respect Georgia's territorial integrity, following fighting in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement.

Rice issued her statement as Georgia, a former Soviet state that now wants to join NATO, battled to get control of the rebel enclave backed by Russian forces. Both Rice and the White House urged an immediate cease-fire in South Ossetia, and U.S. officials said they would send an envoy to the region to help mediate.

Now, according to the timeline, these statements were released after the Georgian Invasion and prior to the Russian counterattack, so was the U.S. assuming they had some card to play to intimidate the Russians enough to prevent a move against the Georgian attack?

Did Condi assume that her stern words were enough to ward off a Russian counter-move? It's possible. Based on her prior track record, Condoleeza Rice has misjudged every other crisis in the MiddleEast and elsewhere that she has been involved in, so maybe this is just another gaffe made by the worst Secretary of State in U.S. history; or maybe Putin is right. His word seems to be just as valid as anyone else's these days!

PoliticalCitizen · August 28, 2008

It would seem with Russia failing to get the expected support for their aggression, Putin is taking a page from the Ghaddafi/Chavez school of wild accusations. What makes it all the more absurd, if the goal was to bump a politcial hopeful, it is noteworthy that it took days for the Georgian invasion to make the front page in the US. The one thing you can be sure of, if the White House wants something to be front and centre in the media, they know how to inform an editor.

It would seem that CNN considers you an imbecile.

How else can you explain the fact that you were given less than 5% of an EXCLUSIVE interview obtained from a leader of a nation? Of course, you would not be able to discern lies from the truth on your own, so CNN helps you by feeding you their commentaries instead of what was actually said.

The West should be grateful that they are given a different point of view directly by a leader who the West was trying their hardest to antagonize and paint evil for a very long time, especially the last 3 weeks.

I am AMAZED that I cannot find the full text of the interview in English.

I'll give you a link to the Russian version - mostly just to look at the size and some dates mentioned during the interview:

http://www.rian.ru/politics/20080828/150771441.html

The best partial translation I could find is here:

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29626

If hope be able to find a full English translation in the next couple of days.

GostHacked · August 28, 2008

So you think that would work outside of Russia? I can see it now....
Hello NYT? this is the Whitehouse press office....just so you know, nothing much is happening in Georgia...btw, did you hear, BIG NEWS....Spears won't be at MTV awards....

It already works outside Russia. It even works in Canada.

You can also replace Spears with, Brangelina, Madonna, and other hollywood performers.

myata · August 28, 2008

Well, Putin may yet scramble and find a NATO passport or something. But how about WMD in Iraq? Who (or what) did our hon. Bush happen to listen to?

AngusThermopyle · August 28, 2008

I have noticed one point on which I agree with you, I don't like Bush either.

However I see that as no reason to support someone like Putin who is far worse than Bush. They're both reprehensible human beings, the difference being one of degree's of significance.

bush_cheney2004 · August 28, 2008

Well, Putin may yet scramble and find a NATO passport or something. But how about WMD in Iraq? Who (or what) did our hon. Bush happen to listen to?

He listened to 12 years of American foreign policy for Iraq. Not much of a mystery...ding dong...Saddam is dead.

myata · August 28, 2008

And what difference does it make? There was no WMD in Iraq, as any toaster could have told them. If they'd only listen.

bush_cheney2004 · August 28, 2008

And what difference does it make? There was no WMD in Iraq, as any toaster could have told them. If they'd only listen.

Why should they listen? Because of "international justice"? Surely you must be joking. This is not marriage counseling.

myata · August 29, 2008

Most of the time, people do it to be heard back; but I guess that simply wasn't in the cards. Our call is, to dictate and preach.

August1991 · August 29, 2008

I have noticed one point on which I agree with you, I don't like Bush either.
However I see that as no reason to support someone like Putin who is far worse than Bush. They're both reprehensible human beings, the difference being one of degree's of significance.

It is this simplistic, lazy equivalence that I find reprehensible in the North American left, or what passes for an opposition.

Bush did not unilaterally change the US Constitution to appoint state governors. Bush did not organize the purchase of all the US TV networks and then have senior announcers/journalists systematically fired. Bush did not give the order to kill secret service dissidents. Senior politicians and businessmen have not fled the US in fear of their life because of Bush. The UK is not involved in a messy extradition case because of Bush. Bush did not create a provocation and invade a local democracy. Bush did not order the destruction of an American state because it sought a degree of autonomy.

Bush will leave the White House in January 2009. He did not appoint his Republican successor. Bush did not make the Democratic Party irrelevant by bribing or harrassing its senior members.

We have been down this road before with Russia and it's astonishing that anyone can fall once again into the trap of ignorance. To compare Bush with Putin is sheer nonsense. Angus, it's not a question of degree unless you mean that they both were presidents.

-----

More generally, too many fail to grasp that, around the world, people don't hate Bush; they hate or envy Americans, and westerners in general. The 19 idiots didn't fly planes into big buildings because Bush was president. Any American is a fool to believe that if Obama becomes president, Putin will become a nice, civilized guy.

Sometimes one gets the impression that the Left believes Bush provoked the attacks in September 2001. "If not for Bush, we wouldn't be facing all these problems in the Middle East."

Edited August 29, 2008 by August1991

PoliticalCitizen · August 29, 2008

I have noticed one point on which I agree with you, I don't like Bush either.
However I see that as no reason to support someone like Putin who is far worse than Bush. They're both reprehensible human beings, the difference being one of degree's of significance.

Hehehe

They are both beings. One classifies as human. The other... hmmm... a meat puppet?

Have you seen an interview given by Bush Jr.? Do you think he would be able to understand a question in English? How about answer it?

PoliticalCitizen · August 29, 2008

Sometimes one gets the impression that the Left believes Bush provoked the attacks in September 2001. "If not for Bush, we wouldn't be facing all these problems in the Middle East."

I hope this doesn't come as a shock, August, but a big part of the world is sure the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by US to have a pretext to unleash its "War on Terror" (should I say "War on Reason"? or "War for Oil"?)

PoliticalCitizen · August 29, 2008

From Russia Today:

August 29, 2008, 2:29

U.S. citizen was among Georgian commandos - Russian Military

A U.S. passport was found in a building in South Ossetia occupied by Georgian troops, a Russian military spokesperson revealed on Thursday. After Russian peacekeepers cleared the heavily defended building, a passport belonging to a Texan named Michael Lee White was discovered inside.

Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff Anatoly Nagovitsyn showed photocopies of the passport to media in a press briefing on Thursday.

“There is a building in Zemonekozi - a settlement to the south of Tskhinval that was fiercely defended by a Georgian special operations squad. Upon clearing the building, Russian peacekeepers recovered, among other documents, an American passport in the name of Michael Lee White of Texas," said Nagovitsyn.

Neither the owner of the passport nor his remains were found at the scene, despite a thorough search.

"I do not know why he was there, but it is a fact that he was in the building, among Georgian special forces troops,” Nagovitsyn said.

The briefing was delivered on the same day Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told CNN, "We have serious reasons to believe that American citizens were right at the heart of the military action". Putin said the conflict in South Ossetian may have been planned to benefit one of the U.S. presidential candidates.

August1991 · August 29, 2008

A U.S. passport was found in a building in South Ossetia occupied by Georgian troops, a Russian military spokesperson revealed on Thursday. After Russian peacekeepers cleared the heavily defended building, a passport belonging to a Texan named Michael Lee White was discovered inside.
Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff Anatoly Nagovitsyn showed photocopies of the passport to media in a press briefing on Thursday.

Some tmes I think that ordinary Russians never lived through the Enlightenment. The Scientific Method? Russians don't know it. Catherine the Great may have been a friend of Voltaire but she was German - not Russian.

At the risk of being controversial, Russians are an Oriental society. (But Khrushchev put Gagarin in space using German technology.)

----

PoliticalCitizen, according to your cite, a Russian military spokesman said that an American passport was found in South Ossetia. A senior Russian military man showed a photocopy of the passport.

Even Galileo would not believe such evidence. Would a Russian believe it? Would a Russian believe that a foreigner would believe it? PoliticalCitizen, do you expect me to believe it?

PoliticalCitizen, do you know what the Scientific Method is? Have you heard of Galileo? Voltaire?

Edited August 29, 2008 by August1991

PoliticalCitizen · August 29, 2008

Some tmes I think that ordinary Russians never lived through the Enlightenment. The Scientific Method? Russians don't know it. Catherine the Great may have been a friend of Voltaire but she was German - not Russian.
At the risk of being controversial, Russians are an Oriental society. (But Khrushchev put Gagarin in space using German technology.)

----

PoliticalCitizen, according to your cite, a Russian military spokesman said that an American passport was found in South Ossetia. A senior Russian military man showed a photocopy of the passport.

Even Galileo would not believe such evidence. Would a Russian believe it? Would a Russian believe that a foreigner would believe it? PoliticalCitizen, do you expect me to believe it?

PoliticalCitizen, do you know what the Scientific Method is? Have you heard of Galileo? Voltaire?

Enlighten me, August. What does Scientific Method mean and how is it related to evidence?

It is dark in my cave... can barely make out the markings on the wall...

Did you believe in 9 / 11? It seems absurd to many foreigners... How did US Administration expect the world to believe it?

Did you believe in Osama in Afganistan? How about WMD in Iraq? Now the last we all know now was a lie... What did the Scientific Method say about that?

The link is not some obscure site - this is what the Russian Government sais to the world.

Even if it would be a lie - do you believe there were no Americans involved in the onslaught on Tshinval? 1000 military trainers on Georgian territory - and none involved?

You appear to be a knowledgeable and intelligent person, therefore it shouldn't be impossible for you to just admit that there is most likely no TRUTH in either US or Russian interpretation of things - the TRUTH is in between.

WIP · August 29, 2008

It is this simplistic, lazy equivalence that I find reprehensible in the North American left, or what passes for an opposition.
Bush did not unilaterally change the US Constitution to appoint state governors. Bush did not organize the purchase of all the US TV networks and then have senior announcers/journalists systematically fired. Bush did not give the order to kill secret service dissidents. Senior politicians and businessmen have not fled the US in fear of their life because of Bush. The UK is not involved in a messy extradition case because of Bush. Bush did not create a provocation and invade a local democracy. Bush did not order the destruction of an American state because it sought a degree of autonomy.

Is this the only argument left for the warhawks? A Putin-is-worse-than-Bush argument is pretty vapid if that's the best that can be said about U.S. foreign policy over the last almost 8 years! Using your logic, if the U.S. state of Georgia voted to secede from the Union, it would be okay for Russia to send in approx. 1000 military advisers, invite them to join the Warsaw Pact, and ruthlessly suppress any elements within Georgia that tried to break away and rejoin the U.S.

And, if you're claiming to be better than the other guys, you have to uphold a higher standard of conduct. Conservatives seem to have turned into relativists, excusing the use of surveillance, torture, detention without trial, by claiming that fascist tactics are needed to fight terrorism.

Bush will leave the White House in January 2009. He did not appoint his Republican successor. Bush did not make the Democratic Party irrelevant by bribing or harrassing its senior members.
We have been down this road before with Russia and it's astonishing that anyone can fall once again into the trap of ignorance. To compare Bush with Putin is sheer nonsense. Angus, it's not a question of degree unless you mean that they both were presidents.-----

More generally, too many fail to grasp that, around the world, people don't hate Bush; they hate or envy Americans, and westerners in general. The 19 idiots didn't fly planes into big buildings because Bush was president. Any American is a fool to believe that if Obama becomes president, Putin will become a nice, civilized guy.

Who cares what Putin becomes? Just quit meddling in Russian border states and let them deal with their own problems.

Sometimes one gets the impression that the Left believes Bush provoked the attacks in September 2001. "If not for Bush, we wouldn't be facing all these problems in the Middle East."

There is no denying that the Bush strategy has made the situation much worse. They were so anxious to make up an excuse to invade Iraq, that they forgot to finish off the Taleban in Afghanistan; and they forgot to provide more than a pittance in development aid also, and let the country stagnate. So now, a revitalized Taleban is being supported by large numbers of disaffected Afghanis; and if present trends continue, will be back in power in one or two years.

Argus · August 29, 2008

Yeah! And we could all laugh about wild accusations if it wasn't for the pattern of lies, deceit and cover-ups conducted by the Bush Administration over the last 7 years. A few years back, torture and secret prisons in foreign countries were wild accusations also. So who are we to believe now that the pattern of disinformation, the word of U.S. officials is no better than that of Cuba, Russia or the Iranians!

Tell me, do all Russians wear tinfoil caps, or just you and PC?

Argus · August 29, 2008

The West should be grateful that they are given a different point of view directly by a leader who the West was trying their hardest to antagonize and paint evil for a very long time, especially the last 3 weeks.

Actually, western political leaders have been bending over backwards to make excuses for Putin's violent and murderous and corrupt regime for many years now, not wanting to restart the cold war. Putin, though, like all megalomaniacs, simply takes that sort of thing as incentive to go even further.

I am AMAZED that I cannot find the full text of the interview in English.

Why would anyone care what Putin has to say about anything? The one thing you can be sure of is there'll be no truth in it.

Argus · August 29, 2008

Well, Putin may yet scramble and find a NATO passport or something. But how about WMD in Iraq? Who (or what) did our hon. Bush happen to listen to?

Who gives a shit?

Why is it all the Russian stooges think that bringing up American misdeeds excuses their own vicious brutality in places like Chechnia and Georgia?

Argus · August 29, 2008

I hope this doesn't come as a shock, August, but a big part of the world is sure the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by US to have a pretext to unleash its "War on Terror" (should I say "War on Reason"? or "War for Oil"?)

A big part of the world is made up of uneducated, unsophisticated, backwards dullards and goat herders who think mirrors are magical devices.

The horrendous lack of sophistication of the Russian people is a prime example. They are one of the world's last great peasant populations.

Argus · August 29, 2008

And, if you're claiming to be better than the other guys, you have to uphold a higher standard of conduct.

Anyone who is incapable of realizing that we DO uphold far higher standards is simply not sane.

Unless, of course, they're Russian, in which case they're just a slack-jawed peasant farmer type who can be excused for their backwardness.

Who cares what Putin becomes? Just quit meddling in Russian border states and let them deal with their own problems.

Russian border states? I wonder if you'd give the same right to the US to use armed intervention on any state it considers close enough to its borders to own its people.

M.Dancer · August 29, 2008

It already works outside Russia. It even works in Canada.
You can also replace Spears with, Brangelina, Madonna, and other hollywood performers.

Do you know what you are talking about? Are you trying to say that America's or Canada's obession with celebrities is a conspiracy to distract people from the news and real issue?