How Many Houses Does John McCain Own?

[M.Dancer]

How many houses one owns is an absolute. When "life begins" isn't.

Really? Does life begin before conception then?

Maybe the definition of absolue is troubling you....

[Shady]

How many houses one owns is an absolute. When "life begins" isn't. Some say life begins at conception, some say at birth. A miscarriage isn't registered as a death. Fetuses can't get life insurance. It's not a black and white issue. How many houses one has is. So we all have opinions as to when life begins, but that's all they are: our opinions. So when Obama says he doesn't know when life begins, he's saying he doesn't have the answer. And he doesn't. None of us do. We only have our opinions.

Wrong. Only a neanderthal ignoring science thinks that life begins at birth. For example, at week 5 of pregnancy, a heartbeat begins. If that's not life, then what the hell is?

[bush_cheney2004]

Wrong. Only a neanderthal ignoring science thinks that life begins at birth. For example, at week 5 of pregnancy, a heartbeat begins. If that's not life, then what the hell is?

Right....it would be a lot easier for their mental gymnastics about "pro-choice" (abortions) if we were hatched from eggs instead of "live birth" as mammals. I will ask my friend Penelope...she is a platypus.

Edited August 27, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[gc1765]

Really? Does life begin before conception then?

Yes. I'm alive and my wife is alive before we conceive and create a new life. Life doesn't begin (except maybe a few billion years ago), it is continuous. When the "life" becomes a distinct human being is what is in question. It's a distinction that I think some posters here don't seem to understand.

[jefferiah]

Just for the record, the Obamas earned their money. The McCains inherited theirs, got it through family connections, or by marriage. If the McCains had to rely on their own merits, they'd be abject failures.

So you didn't support Kerry, I take it?

[Stephen Best]

Really? So the millions of US veterans with earned retirement benefits are also abject failures? Or US Senators without "earned" wealth? Anyone who retires at the rank of O-6 and is successful in the US Congress for over 20 years can hardly be an "abject failure".

Were we not discussing McCain, Obama, and their spouses? What have millions of US veterans got to do with McCain's family connections which are the only thing that got him into military college to be almost dead last in his class and preserved his disreputable, incompetent military career, and his living off the avails of his rich wife who he married after dumping his first one? To the best of my knowledge, the only thing McCain boasts about in his military career is being a POW. The credit for that should not go to McCain but the Vietnamese. What's so special and heroic about being shot down while bombing innocent civilians?

[M.Dancer]

To the best of my knowledge, the only thing McCain boasts about in his military career is being a POW. The credit for that should not go to McCain but the Vietnamese. What's so special and heroic about being shot down while bombing innocent civilians?

In other words then, to the worst of your knowledge, you don't know anything about McCain's military career...

[Stephen Best]

In other words then, to the worst of your knowledge, you don't know anything about McCain's military career...

It's John McCain and his surrogates who repeatedly reference his POW status in response to any criticism of McCain. They do not speak about any of his other military accomplishments, because there are none. Might I suggest you read John McCain: Unfit to serve as Commander in Chief. Might I also suggest, Democrat with military background assails McCain's credentials. Or you might consider, Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain.

As you can see, I do know something about McCain's disreputable, incompetent military career. Like George Bush, McCain was so lacking in competence and character only his father's intervention and influence made it possible for him to avoid the condemnation he deserved then, and deserves now.

[M.Dancer]

As you can see, I do know something about McCain's disreputable, incompetent military career. Like George Bush, McCain was so lacking in competence and character only his father's intervention and influence made it possible for him to avoid the condemnation he deserved then, and deserves now.

Okay, so you don't know squat, fair enough. In your own words, how does one fly 23 combat missions, be decorated for extraordinary conduct and have a disreputable military career?

[Stephen Best]

Okay, so you don't know squat, fair enough. In your own words, how does one fly 23 combat missions, be decorated for extraordinary conduct and have a disreputable military career?

Well you clearly don't know squat about how the military distributes decorations.

You love John. I think the guy's an immoral, unethical, incompetent, disreputable buffoon--as do many of his military colleagues. I think he's a guy who in order to advance had to rely on his influential parents and rich wife who he got after cheating on and dumping his first wife when she needed him most. It's clear you're not going to change your views. And I certainly won't change mine based on your uncritical cheer leading. Enough said. Time to move on.

[M.Dancer]

Well you clearly don't know squat about how the military distributes decorations.

You love John. I think the guy's an immoral, unethical, incompetent, disreputable buffoon--as do many of his military colleagues. I think he's a guy who in order to advance had to rely on his influential parents and rich wife who he got after cheating on and dumping his first wife when she needed him most. It's clear you're not going to change your views. And I certainly won't change mine based on your uncritical cheer leading. Enough said. Time to move on.

Indeed, move on. You are unabvle to answer a very simple question, instead you continue to slur a man's decorated military career.

Now in your own words how do you know how the US military awards their honours.

Oh and one more thing...

What's so special and heroic about being shot down while bombing innocent civilians?

That is a lie. Which might describe most of what you have written as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

Were we not discussing McCain, Obama, and their spouses? What have millions of US veterans got to do with McCain's family connections which are the only thing that got him into military college to be almost dead last in his class and preserved his disreputable, incompetent military career, and his living off the avails of his rich wife who he married after dumping his first one?

If you cannot qualify the criteria for "abject failure" any better than you did, then it is an unfounded claim compared to millions of other US veterans, shot down or otherwise. The appointment process for the US military academies includes the sons and daughters of military personnel.

Hell, even Obama's camp isn't stupid enough to assail McCain's military career (compared to the civilian killing, medal throwing and married riches of say.....Senator John Kerry).

To the best of my knowledge, the only thing McCain boasts about in his military career is being a POW. The credit for that should not go to McCain but the Vietnamese. What's so special and heroic about being shot down while bombing innocent civilians?

You are wrong...as a naval aviator, John McCain has earned the reputation of his warfare qualifications and combat duty...good and bad, just like many others. "Bombing innocent civilians" is harder than you think.

If you don't like his politics or military service, that's fine, but your inexperienced opinion does not equate to "abject failure".

Edited August 27, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Stephen Best]

Indeed, move on. You are unabvle to answer a very simple question, instead you continue to slur a man's decorated military career.

Now in your own words how do you know how the US military awards their honours.

Oh and one more thing...

That is a lie. Which might describe most of what you have written as well.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down." [source McCain lost five U.S. Navy aircraft].

McCain himself says that he was shot down, on October 26, 1967, bombing a "heavily populated part of Hanoi", in other words, innocent people. [source: Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?].

Do I have to walk you through every fact? Can't you research some of this on your own?

Edited August 27, 2008 by Stephen Best

[Stephen Best]

If you cannot qualify the criteria for "abject failure" any better than you did, then it is an unfounded claim...

Does "McCain's Secret, Questionable Record" and all the other sources I've posted on this thread not add up to "abject failure" or worse? I think it does, but then perhaps your and other's standards of what comprises competence and success are much lower than mine.

[M.Dancer]

Do I have to walk you through every fact? Can't you research some of this on your own?

No your cut and pastes from partisan sites are very skillfull, but can you try to answer in your own words without lying?

What's so special and heroic about being shot down while bombing innocent civilians?

That's a lie. If it came from Moore, then it's one moore lie.

[Stephen Best]

No your cut and pastes from partisan sites are very skillfull, but can you try to answer in your own words without lying?

That's a lie. If it came from Moore, then it's one moore lie.

It seems you're reduced to ad hominen attacks and baseless charges of lying. One minute you accuse me of not give you "proof", then when you get the proof of my assertions, you want to hear my own words. Get back to me when you make up your mind.

Perhaps you can give me some evidence about McCain's brilliant military career and heroics in the mean time. By "partisan", do you mean anything that doesn't agree with you? Are you not a partisan? Just checking.

[Guest American Woman]

Hell, even Obama's camp isn't stupid enough to assail McCain's military career (compared to the civilian killing, medal throwing and married riches of say.....Senator John Kerry). [...]

It amazes me how one war veteran is 'fair game' to criticize and attack while anyone who does it to 'the other side' is just horrible for criticizing and attacking a war veteran who 'served his country.' What's good for one is good for the other. If you attack Kerry for his service, you damn well better accept that there are people attacking McCain for his. They have just as much a right to attack and speak ill of McCain as you all do to attack and speak ill of Kerry.

[bush_cheney2004]

Does "McCain's Secret, Questionable Record" and all the other sources I've posted on this thread not add up to "abject failure" or worse? I think it does, but then perhaps your and other's standards of what comprises competence and success are much lower than mine.

Indeed.....a decorated military career and more than 20 years in the US Congress would satisfy most people as some measure of success, not only failure. Many people actually learn from "failures" to go on to greater things...like US president.

If you want to "Swift Boat" John McCain.....good luck!

[M.Dancer]

It amazes me how one war veteran is 'fair game' to criticize and attack while anyone who does it to 'the other side' is just horrible for criticizing and attacking a war veteran who 'served his country.' What's good for one is good for the other. If you attack Kerry for his service, you damn well better accept that there are people attacking McCain for his. They have just as much a right to attack and speak ill of McCain as you all do to attack and speak ill of Kerry.

Did McCain start his political career by promoting false accounts and fabrications?

Otherwise you might have a point

[bush_cheney2004]

It amazes me how one war veteran is 'fair game' to criticize and attack while anyone who does it to 'the other side' is just horrible for criticizing and attacking a war veteran who 'served his country.' What's good for one is good for the other. If you attack Kerry for his service, you damn well better accept that there are people attacking McCain for his. They have just as much a right to attack and speak ill of McCain as you all do to attack and speak ill of Kerry.

If you had served, you would certainly know the difference. Senator Kerry's service was fine right up until he pissed on the rest of us who were serving as well. The right to speak ill of McCain is not being questioned, but it can certainly be challenged, if you don't mind. That's what I served for.

[M.Dancer]

It seems you're reduced to ad hominen attacks and baseless charges of lying. One minute you accuse me of not give you "proof", then when you get the proof of my assertions, you want to hear my own words. Get back to me when you make up your mind.

Perhaps you can give me some evidence about McCain's brilliant military career and heroics in the mean time. By "partisan", do you mean anything that doesn't agree with you? Are you not a partisan? Just checking.

I didn't ask for proof, nor did I accuse you of not providing proof, I even compliments you on your cut and paste expertise. I asked for you to tell us in your own words how his military career was disreupable. Apparently that is a request that you are not able to fulfill.

By partisan I mean your links, which by any standard, Moore, Vietman vet against McCain and huffinton fit to a tee.

Am I partisan? Since I am not an American and won't be voting, that question is as irrelevant as a Michael Moore statement.

[Born Free]

If you had served, you would certainly know the difference. Senator Kerry's service was fine right up until he pissed on the rest of us who were serving as well. The right to speak ill of McCain is not being questioned, but it can certainly be challenged, if you don't mind. That's what I served for.

What exactly did Kerry do to be accused of pissing on those that served? If it was about his harsh criticim of the Vietnam War, I dont see that as pissing on his fellow soldiers. I believe he was pissing on the two administrations who were running the war.

[Guest American Woman]

What exactly did Kerry do to be accused of pissing on those that served? If it was about his harsh criticim of the Vietnam War, I dont see that as pissing on his fellow soldiers. I believe he was pissing on the two administrations who were running the war.

He did absolutely nothing to deserve that accusation. He had every right, and every reason, to be critical of the war and the administrations that were running it. Furthermore, he was speaking out for the many soldiers who were in Vietnam, who were sent to war through no choice of their own. They, too, served; and they deserved a voice.

[M.Dancer]

What exactly did Kerry do to be accused of pissing on those that served? If it was about his harsh criticim of the Vietnam War, I dont see that as pissing on his fellow soldiers. I believe he was pissing on the two administrations who were running the war.

A major criticism of kerry's winter soldier campaign were that some men who claimed to have committed atrocities in Vietnam who has in fact, never been closer than 1000 miles of the place and others who were pressured by Kerry to talk about atrocities they hadn't seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

[Born Free]

A major criticism of kerry's winter soldier campaign were that some men who claimed to have committed atrocities in Vietnam who has in fact, never been closer than 1000 miles of the place and others who were pressured by Kerry to talk about atrocities they hadn't seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

Thanks. Regardless of what Kerry has claimed, I have been under the impression that there were wide scale atrocities committed by the US in Vietam that were sanctioned by the military &/OR the CIA.