Mechanics Right To Repair

[bk59]

This strikes at the core of the question: if I sell you something, should I be able to include in the contract of sale a stipulation of what you can do with the property?

If I'm a fanatical Christian and you buy my old car, can I stipulate that the car cannot be driven on Sundays? What happens if you sell the car to another person? Does the Sunday restriction still apply?

This may seem absurd but it exists with land - the ultimate property. An easement means that someone else has access to your land for a specific purpose (usually the right to cross the land). An easement remains part of the deed. IOW, a current seller can stipulate how future owners can use a piece of property. If you sell land with an easement, future owners must respect it.

Your Christian car example is not really analogous to an easement though. It is more analogous to a covenant that runs with land. That is, when someone sells land they could have you promise to not do something with that land (e.g. promise not to build a building over 30 feet tall). To my knowledge, if a buyer purchases the land without being told about the covenant then the new buyer is not held to that promise.

What is the rule of law? A civilized society requires two body of laws: property law and contract law. Neither are simple.

If we were to answer your core question from above then you need to consider competition law as well. It overlaps with aspects of property and contract law perhaps, but it is unique enough that it deserves to be mentioned on its own. Look at the Microsoft example in the US. Microsoft was not allowed to tell users what they could do with the property they bought (the Windows OS), at least with respect to internet browsing software. Microsoft was not allowed to lock users into one particular browser.

[Bryan]

But in no way should someone be able to say that I'm not allowed to modify my computer and how it functions. While I cannot attempt to use for a commercial purpose the code of say Vista - there is nothing stopping me from downloading software that modifies the function of Vista. Likewise nothing is stopping me from executing code that modifies microsoft code, exe files etc.. since MS disclaims itself anyway.

No law exists to stop people from moifyng their own computer.

The problem - what if it is used/old, and their is no one from the company - or place that sell that brand or the company goes out of business, and there are no "brand" sales / tune up centers.... why can't joe blow do what the other guy does, since joe blow is the only one. Or why have to pay 10x the price for the service someone else will do.. is the monopolization fair? What if now your car has no resale value because the computer system so vital now can't be fixed legally?

Computer companies seem to think otherwise. Apple is currently suing a small computer maker for installing legally purchased copies of OS X on the machines they make. This is an after sale value added transaction, and yet Apple clearly has a case that their end user agreement has been violated because installing the OS on anything other than an Apple brand computer is forbidden.

[fellowtraveller]

We arent , but the same rule applies. No one but a dealer, barring of course a satellite dealer approved by the mfg'er, can touch the car. Anyone else voids the warranty.

And dont believe it isnt done in other market goods. For instance, Bombardier has a clause that says you must return the Sea-Doo to the dealer after 10 hours of operation for an inspection. That will be $200 please. Voids the warrant if you dont.

Due to the remote location of lakes in this province that can well be more than 200 or even 300km tow.

That is simply not true.

All that is required to maintain a vehicle warranty is proof that scheduled maintenance has been performed, there is no requirement whatsoever for the work to be performed at a dealer. None. Zero. You will note that scheduled maintenance for most new cars during the warranty period consists of fluid changes and a variety of inspections, none of which require any codes or special technology.

If you want the manufacturer to pay for repairs done under warranty, they must be done at an authorized shop- which may or may not be a dealer. I have been far from a dealer, required urgent repairs, and the manufacturer authorized the repair at a neighbourhood garage- and paid for all of it.

[gullyfourmyle]

Disagree.

Manufacturers of any equipment have the right to not allow access to their proprietary software, they paid the money to develop it and it belongs to them under intellectual copyright. If that means you have to take your Volvo(a prime culprit btw) to the Volvo dealer to get thoroughly cheated for repairs- then so be it.

Of course, ifyour brand is labelled as 'expensive to fix', the maker will eventually have trouble selling them.

Comsumers are cluing into the reality that the main sources of income for dealers are financing and service/repairs. selling the vehicles does not make a lot, especially now.

I agree with fellowtraveller. Software comes under the heading of intellectual property. All manufacturers protect their logos and other forms of intellectual property rigorously. There is no chance an automobile manufacturer is going to let 3rd parties play with code. If they did, there would be all sorts of variations out there and these codes directly affect performance levels of the vehicles. If the codes could be tampered with, emissions testing would soon be compromised. No government could tolerate that.

Try replicating a Chrysler emblem on a hat you want to take to market. That little stunt would land you in court. But you can change what your car or truck looks like radically. You can make your Toyota look like a Ford if you want. But don't mess with the logos or the computer chips.

It depends on what is protected and why.

Who owns the vehicle or how old it is has no bearing on the intellectual property tied to the vehicle. That's why you can see all sorts of variations of Chevys, Fords, Chryslers, AMCs, Studebakers and Packards out there. But one thing you won't see is the logo tampered with on any of them.

Fellowtraveller also said you don't own things, you own rights. Those rights determine how commodities such as land, vehicles and intellectual property are dealt with from a legal perspective. We are merely custodians of the physical effects until we sell it or otherwise dispose of it.

That's why I made such a big deal about the street racing legislation. It is legislation that denies rights illegally and directly affects how our ability to own material things, earn a living and maintain our freedom. That law has a profound negative impact on your ability to live a free life whether you drive a vehicle or not. It is legislation that destabilizes all Ontario legislation. That is a big deal. You should go to that thread and read it if you haven't yet.

Without your guaranteed rights, you have nothing worthwhile beyond your own life. You can't even depend on the quality of that life. What kind of life is that?

[bk59]

Software comes under the heading of intellectual property.

Simply saying "this is software and protected as intellectual property" does not mean you get to do whatever you want. Just as Microsoft about their antitrust cases.

All manufacturers protect their logos and other forms of intellectual property rigorously. There is no chance an automobile manufacturer is going to let 3rd parties play with code. If they did, there would be all sorts of variations out there and these codes directly affect performance levels of the vehicles. If the codes could be tampered with, emissions testing would soon be compromised. No government could tolerate that.

This is not what the issue is about. Mechanics don't want to go reprogramming the car. We are not talking about programming code (i.e. programming language instructions), we are talking about diagnostic codes. I pointed this out above: all mechanics need is the file definition for the signal coming out of the car and a list of what the diagnostic code means (e.g. 100 = part X is bad, 200 = part Y is bad). The list doesn't even have to be electronic, it can be written on paper.

So there is absolutely no chance of someone playing with the software inside the car and no chance of performance levels being compromised (aside from whatever the mechanic is doing to repair the car of course).

Now the bill might be talking about forcing manufacturers to give their diagnostic programs to mechanics, but I think that would be wrong. Even though this still would not be giving mechanics the software code it would go too far in helping other businesses. For a right to repair all you need to do is give a file definition and a list of the diagnostic code meanings. Neither of those things needs to be in electronic form. Then people can go off and program their own diagnostic tools if they want.

Try replicating a Chrysler emblem on a hat you want to take to market. That little stunt would land you in court. But you can change what your car or truck looks like radically. You can make your Toyota look like a Ford if you want. But don't mess with the logos or the computer chips.

It depends on what is protected and why.

Exactly, these things depend on what is protected and why. Your example with the logo has nothing to do with this since that is trademark not copyright. Software is copyright. Or patents. Even if the file definition could be copyrighted (which is questionable) then you could justify giving the file definition to mechanics under competition laws.

And again, a right to repair does not need to have anyone messing with computer chips.

Fellowtraveller also said you don't own things, you own rights. Those rights determine how commodities such as land, vehicles and intellectual property are dealt with from a legal perspective. We are merely custodians of the physical effects until we sell it or otherwise dispose of it.

And many of those rights are legislated. So introducing a right to repair isn't that different than what has been done in many other cases.

That's why I made such a big deal about the street racing legislation. It is legislation that denies rights illegally and directly affects how our ability to own material things, earn a living and maintain our freedom. That law has a profound negative impact on your ability to live a free life whether you drive a vehicle or not. It is legislation that destabilizes all Ontario legislation. That is a big deal. You should go to that thread and read it if you haven't yet.

Without your guaranteed rights, you have nothing worthwhile beyond your own life. You can't even depend on the quality of that life. What kind of life is that?

I am really not sure about this mini rant. How did street racing legislation deny you a right or destabilize all Ontario legislation? I guess I will check out that thread, but you may have to face the fact that all laws limit freedoms in some way. I am sure there are some people who would love to go get totally smashed and then jump in a car to drive home, but that is a freedom we happily take away from people.

[Wilber]

Good God, I'm finding myself agreeing with bk59. One can buy a maintenance manual for just about any vehicle they own. In that manual will be all the diagnostic codes for that vehicle. Not much good if you can't read them however. I have one vehicle where cycling the ignition key three times will show in the odometer readout most PCU or ECU codes that have been stored. I can then find out what those codes mean in a Haynes manual that I bought at Canadian Tire. Any other codes not accessible through the odometer can be read with an OBDII reader that can be bought at any automotive parts store. What's the problem with these other donkeys?

[Chuck U. Farlie]

I have to admit, I didn't read every posting in this thread... but I read a fair bit.

In my opinion, you can buy what you want that works for you.

For example... I ride motorcycles. I have a choice of 1000's of japanese bikes that allow for very little creativity. What do I ride? I have a Royal Enfield which is a 50 year old design. This design keeps the gearbox separate from the engine, this allows me to change to almost any engine I like....

My Enfield is fitted with a diesel motor from a gen set... I get about 170mpg and as far as I know it is the only on the road diesel bike in ontario. I can put any engine I want in this bike, and parts are cheap since its made in India, so I will likely keep it as long as possible. I can replace every part on this bike myself... and that is my idea of independence.

If car companies go the route that I can't do anything on them myself, then I won't buy that brand of car. Some may try it, but if the only place you can service them is the dealership then they won't be popular cars. They don't need to be regulated to do this... demand itself will take care of it.

By the way... I also run linux exclusively. I have no problem with ripping off microsoft, but i figure I may as well get used to what is going to take over now rather than later.

[gullyfourmyle]

What you explained in that post bk59 was not clear to me before. So if there is no chance the code can be tampered with, I'm okay with your points.

But yes go read the street racing legislation post and you'll see how it relates.

[madmax]

Right To Repair Part 2

After all the political dancing, phoney election followed by a self inflicted political crises....

A BILL has come forward again, and hopefully Stupid Political Antics won't derail the progress on this BILL a 3rd time.

I am happy it hasn't been dropped or lost.

Industry, others support NDP auto repair bill

5 hours ago

OTTAWA — Car mechanics, the auto association and Pollution Probe are backing an NDP private-member's bill which would provide greater access to auto-repair technology.

The bill, introduced by Windsor, Ont., MP Brian Masse, aims to make it easier for auto-repair shops to obtain the tools and technology needed to work on modern, computerized vehicles.

Marc Brazeau, president of the Automotive Industries Association said the industry has always promoted strong competition.

"This bill makes sure it stays that way."

This is a good Private Members bill. Its important that all parties recognise this and get back into the business of governing the country.

[Progressive Tory]

It sounds good but I feel like there is something being left out here. Is it a monopoly thing or a patent thing?

What if the car manufacturer implemented a small user fee? I really wouldn't want to see independant mechanics and small garages lose out.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Any other codes not accessible through the odometer can be read with an OBDII reader that can be bought at any automotive parts store. What's the problem with these other donkeys?

Spot on...I am amazed at the electrical and mechanical ignorance of automobile owners today. I use a laptop as an OBDII scan tool to get the codes and reset CEL/MIL lights for friends who haven't a clue.

"Donkeys" deserve the un-lubricated reaming they will get at a dealer.

[85RZ500]

Have three vehicles, a `90, `97, 03.

The OBD1 is onboard, the OBD2's need a scanner and I have one. Luckily I've had no problems that I can't find and fix myself.

That said, I'm at an age where I doubt that I'll ever buy another vehicle but the "dealer only " thing woud definitely halt any purchase.

[Progressive Tory]

That said, I'm at an age where I doubt that I'll ever buy another vehicle but the "dealer only " thing woud definitely halt any purchase.

I'd never really thought about asking. We still have warrantly, but when it's off I'd like to know we have options.

[robert_viera]

I had a look at the bill in question, bill C-273. It proposes to define "technical information" as a "product" under section 75 of the Competition Act. Section 75 falls under the heading of "Restrictive Trade Practices" and specifically "Refusal to Deal".

From the Competition Act:

75. (1) Where, on application by the Commissioner or a person granted leave under section 103.1, the Tribunal finds that

(a) a person is substantially affected in his business or is precluded from carrying on business due to his inability to obtain adequate supplies of a product anywhere in a market on usual trade terms,

( the person referred to in paragraph (a) is unable to obtain adequate supplies of the product because of insufficient competition among suppliers of the product in the market,

© the person referred to in paragraph (a) is willing and able to meet the usual trade terms of the supplier or suppliers of the product,

(d) the product is in ample supply, and

(e) the refusal to deal is having or is likely to have an adverse effect on competition in a market,

the Tribunal may order that one or more suppliers of the product in the market accept the person as a customer within a specified time on usual trade terms unless, within the specified time, in the case of an article, any customs duties on the article are removed, reduced or remitted and the effect of the removal, reduction or remission is to place the person on an equal footing with other persons who are able to obtain adequate supplies of the article in Canada.

If I understand this correctly, the bill aims to prevent motor vehicle manufacturers from refusing to sell a product, namely the technical information needed to "repair, service, and diagnose" a motor vehicle, to motor vehicle owners and independent repair shops, because that would "substantially" affect the independent's business or even preclude them from carrying on their business, and that would have an adverse effect on competition in the market.

The actual "Right to Repair" part of the bill comes in the form of an amendment to the Canadian Environmental Protection Act:

(3) In order to facilitate compliance with section 153, every company that manufactures a motor vehicle in Canada or that imports a motor vehicle into Canada shall

(a) provide, in a standard format via the Internet, motor vehicle owners and repair facilities with unrestricted access to all the service and training information relating to a motor vehicle manufactured by the company, including information necessary to activate the controls of that motor vehicle; and

( on the request of a motor vehicle owner or a repair facility, promptly make available to the motor vehicle owner or repair facility, through reasonable business means, all the diagnostic tools and capabilities necessary to diagnose, service and repair the motor vehicle.

(4) For greater certainty, a company referred to in subsection (3) shall provide to motor vehicle owners and independent repair facilities the same information, and make available to them the same tools and capabilities, that it provides and makes available to franchised dealerships of the company, at the same time that they are provided and made available to those dealerships.

(5) Nothing in this section is deemed to require the disclosure of trade secrets or the public disclosure of any information related exclusively to the design and manufacture of motor vehicle parts.

Section 153 concerns emissions standards compliance. The bill also includes provisions for regulating fees and how the information is provided.

[GostHacked]

Spot on...I am amazed at the electrical and mechanical ignorance of automobile owners today. I use a laptop as an OBDII scan tool to get the codes and reset CEL/MIL lights for friends who haven't a clue.

"Donkeys" deserve the un-lubricated reaming they will get at a dealer.

Look under a hood. Most of my old school gear heads are lost on the new vehicles. Those are the hands on guys who can work with the physical. These same people may not have the mindset for the virtual computer world and how it works with a car. I have a pal who works at a Ford dealership. He needs constant training on the new technology that is in the cars these days. The car is packed with more electronics now than ever. You need to have your A+ PC cert almost to work on the car along with your Class A mechanics license.

Some people are not mechanically or electronically inclined. That does not mean they deserve that reaming they get from the dealer.

I know much about computers, but little about car mechanics. I'd be half screwed. Then again, I have not owned a vehicle in about 8 years, so that eliminates that problem

QUOTE (Wilber @ Sep 5 2008, 08:26 PM) *

....Any other codes not accessible through the odometer can be read with an OBDII reader that can be bought at any automotive parts store. What's the problem with these other donkeys?

Any place that makes their money on diagnostics are not going to tell you that this stuff is available. You have to be aware that the option exists before you can even think of taking it.

[fellowtraveller]

I'd never really thought about asking. We still have warrantly, but when it's off I'd like to know we have options.

You have options right now.

There is no requiremtn to have routine maintenance work done at any dealer.

You are required to maintain records of all maintenance performed, by yourself and non-dealers, to keep the warranty in effect.

[guyser]

There is no requiremtn to have routine maintenance work done at any dealer.

You are required to maintain records of all maintenance performed, by yourself and non-dealers, to keep the warranty in effect.

...and to add that the work performed by the non dealer is not covered by warranty if other than OEM parts are used or cause the damage.

[Wilber]

Any place that makes their money on diagnostics are not going to tell you that this stuff is available. You have to be aware that the option exists before you can even think of taking it.

Maybe not but most of this information is readily available on the net. Almost every vehicle built has a user forum out there somewhere with people who know more about the things than you will ever want to.

I have learned a ton about the vehicles I own from these forums.

[Wilber]

...and to add that the work performed by the non dealer is not covered by warranty if other than OEM parts are used or cause the damage.

Of course not, that is only reasonable. Why should a manufacturer warranty parts they didn't make?

[guyser]

Of course not, that is only reasonable. Why should a manufacturer warranty parts they didn't make?

They shouldnt, but they can link causation to a part that isnt theres and they get off the hook.

[bush_cheney2004]

Look under a hood. Most of my old school gear heads are lost on the new vehicles. Those are the hands on guys who can work with the physical. These same people may not have the mindset for the virtual computer world and how it works with a car. I have a pal who works at a Ford dealership. He needs constant training on the new technology that is in the cars these days. The car is packed with more electronics now than ever. You need to have your A+ PC cert almost to work on the car along with your Class A mechanics license.

I agree that anybody who offers such services for sale at premium rates with warranty should be so trained, but old timers like me who made the leap from old technology to the latest in engine and drivetrain control have nothing to fear once the warranty period is over. As Wilber stated, there is a huge resource base available on the Web. For those not so inclined, they must face......THE DEALER or repair shop.

Some people are not mechanically or electronically inclined. That does not mean they deserve that reaming they get from the dealer.

But they do....I tell my own son to learn the "ways of the force" or be forced to pay someone else to do it.

I know much about computers, but little about car mechanics. I'd be half screwed. Then again, I have not owned a vehicle in about 8 years, so that eliminates that problem

Sure, but if I told you that today's cars have a LAN with serial interface bus you would be right at home. I used to make LED monitors at home for Volvo's Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection for cars made in 1975. You have to want to do it, and find personal reward in the task. My relatives wonder why in hell would a guy want to swap out half-shafts or replace a head gasket in an unheated garage during January in MN....because I can.

Any place that makes their money on diagnostics are not going to tell you that this stuff is available. You have to be aware that the option exists before you can even think of taking it.

True...but the buyer is always responsible for getting informed.

[madmax]

Maybe not but most of this information is readily available on the net. Almost every vehicle built has a user forum out there somewhere with people who know more about the things than you will ever want to.

I have learned a ton about the vehicles I own from these forums.

It is some of the best troubleshooting I have come across. The knowledge on these sites blows me away.

[madmax]

But they do....I tell my own son to learn the "ways of the force" or be forced to pay someone else to do it.

Very clever. I will have to remember that one.

[guyser]

It is some of the best troubleshooting I have come across. The knowledge on these sites blows me away.

Concur.

I had a faulty heater blower where it would only work on 'high' , or #4, and while that is fine in Jan and Feb, it gets a bit stupid the rest of the year. But I left it.

Until one day decided to google auto repair forums. Holy shite, what a relief, every single problem I had was there in black and white with repair estimates, whether it should be done, recall notices that were not announced , just tons fo great things.

Resulted in me getting 2 warranty jobs done and getting through the BS I was gettin from the service advisor. Now these forums are the first place to look.

But I wont change my oil, nor any other part, save for maybe...maybe...the wipers. Thats what mechanics are for.

[Topaz]

Let's face it, when the automakers, start to put codes in, it was to get those cars back into THEIR garages and not let people go else where. Well, not all of us can pay the 80-90 Hrly rates! If I can get the car serviced as good as the BIG dealer can, else where, why should I go to dealer?