Cold War II

[Wild Bill]

Medvedev just said in an interview that there will be no negative consequences for Russia if the NATO - Russia relationship disappears. He said that during this relation Russia was continuously told not to worry while NATO kept absorbing countries and building military bases closer and closer to its borders.

Actually, from a games theory viewpoint Russia is being quite astute. They don't fear a western invasion. That's not what the West does! They might find the US to be a rival for some resource or the political support of a particular county but Uncle Sam is very unlikely to initiate a military invasion. They tend to RESPOND to attacks like 911 or Saddam's bluffing about WMD's but otherwise they tend to be "nice".

Meanwhile, Russia can and has used their military as their first tool, as with Georgia. Obviously they have assessed the US and NATO as unlikely to respond to any but the most outrageous provocation. They MIGHT go to war over Poland but never for Georgia. The Baltics remain to be seen.

It's basically just taking advantage of the biblical Golden Rule. If you know that your opponent is more likely to just "turn the other cheek" and will first respond to you in the way they themselves would like to be treated then you have a great advantage if you rely on this to do whatever you want. As long as you keep from pushing your opponent too far and cornering him into a response you can get away with a helluva lot!

Steyn is right. Those who are willing to fight usually win. Those who will not stand up for themselves tend to become victims.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Wild Bill

[Rue]

Kudos to China! They are the only Socialists who have done it right.

If that is your idea of what socialism is I have one word for you-oy.

There is nothing socialist about China. The fact that the state has a monopoly on all its economic activities does not mean its socialist. You need to be sent to reducation camp.

I am telling Hugo Chavez what you said.

[Rue]

Steyn is right. Those who are willing to fight usually win. Those who will not stand up for themselves tend to become victims.

Here is where I disagree. I believe history probably could be used to show you might make a strong argument for the above but only with conventional wars.

What history has also shown is that if the fighting is not carried out according to convential rules of war, but instead becomes prolonged terrorist attacks and guerilla war, the above comment is dead wrong.

In fact the tactics of Mandela, Ghandi and Martin Luther King appear to be the more tactical way to go if you can't engage in a conventional war-that or the MacDonald's Coca Cola formula. In the former you appeal to people's idealism and there is no short term dramatic change but in the long term the society collapses from within forcing the change as more and more people passively take on the behaviour of resistance. In the latter formula, you take over countries appealing to their vices. Either way appears far more effective then terrorism or guerilla war where no conventional war can be carried out.

So let us get down to the pith and substance of this current conflict. We have on the one hand a Western economic alliance and that is all NATO symbolizes, between the US and the European Union who are reluctant allies with Japan because of their shared dependency on oil and inter-connected corporate economic activities. On the other hand you have Russia, essentially the remainder of a collapsed failed government monopoly economic system whose former enforcers the KGB still run the country only now they have formed an alliance with the only organized economic entity in Russia, the MOB.

Russia is nothing but the MOB using its alliance with the KGB's ability to control the state, to have a complete stranglehold on all economic activity and prevent any competition within Russia. In that respect Russia is no different then China, a state monopoly. In Russia's case the MOB is just not as subtle as the Chinese government in its brutality and predatory pricing and economic control. Unlike China it sees no need to pretend.

Russia wants to sell its oil to the West and regain its superstar power status. To regain its status it needs to be able to sell that oil. As long as the West can get it from somewhere else, it stalls Russia's quest to become a superstar. So its obvious and blatant what is happening. The economic constellation of Japan, the US and the European Union and those former Eastern block countries wishing to get out from Russian control which to find an alternative way not to have to deal with Russia. So we have a war in Afghanistan which is all about trying to secure oil pipelines. We have a war in Iraq which we all know is over securing pipelines.

The conflict in Georgia its over pipelines. Doesn't take a genius to see these conflicts arise around pipelines.

Georgia is a threat to Russia for one real reason, it provides pipelines that would by-pass Russia. In theory if Afghanistan on the ground and Iraq on the ground were secured, those pipelines would make there way to Europe without the need to get oil from Russia.

Russia is not stupid. So they do what they do. They incite Iran to trade in the Euro dollar not the American dollar and create havoic in the would oil market which directly causes the West to need Russian oil. Russia encourages Iran to send all their oil to China. Why not. By fueling China's economy it fuels the largest predatory pricing monster on world markets which again destabilize the Western economy.

The World has divided into 3 economic constellations. The West which technically for now is the European Union, NATO members, Israel, Japan and North America. Then there is China and then there is India.

Russia doesn't no where to place itself. It wants to be an economic power on its own and feels with its strategic oil and other natural resource reserves it could easily be. The problem is it has no infrastructure. The MOB does not invest in Russia. They do not invest in roads, buildings, education so unlike China and India which do exactly that its not going to be able to compete with their state run/dominated economies or the free enterprise economy of the West. It is an economic outlaw and as the Mafia can tell you, if the Russian MOB is to survive it has to legitimize itself. It can't hook up with the Vatican to launder its money, that is already been done by the Mafia.

It can't hook up with the Columbian and Latin American drug cartels because in Latin America, you only deal with your own kind certainly not the Russian mob. As much as Hugo Chavez spews off at the mouth, he certainly isn't re-routing his oil to China or North Korea to assist his socialist bretheren nor is he telling the drug cartels who have made his country their Switzerland banking centre, to spend the money on the masses.

Its all about strategic positioning to protect economic interests.

Everyone is a whore. The only difference is some people think the Americans are the only ones to engage in prostitution. When anyone else does it, we get this sanctimonious talk about who started it and how Russia feels alienated. Right. Russia is not some pathetic victim lashing out in frustration. It is a country run by cold, calculated, professional killers that would snap your head off in seconds and not shed a tear.

As far as I am concerned if Russia's MOB had any intelligence, instead of acting like the typical head strung potatoe vodka drunken brutes they love to embrace culturally they should learn to stop drinking and t raping and learn to engage in foreplay. Russia just does not understand you need to have foreplay before you have economic intercourse.

Foreplay in this case means inviting Western captialists into your country and not being afraid of them and letting them operate and instead of trying to control everything they do with a sledgehammer, simply take a heft percentage of it and get them dependent on your market, then slowly yank up your taxes on them once they get hooked.

They are the classic thug who thinks they can rule by brute force. Chicago style went out years ago and was replaced by the more subtle Myer Lansky Tony Soprano approach. Today's criminals set up elaborate trade networks and do not resort to the blowing off of heads as much. Its far easier to pay someone off and give them a direct vested financial interest in cooperating. The need for brute force has given way to elaborate webs of international corporate networks.

Now in Western material society when the masses put on their chains of slavery, they welcome them. Each chain or debt rung up from the addiction to material gratification is welcomed as evidence of their freedom.

You want me to pontificate and say all we Westerners are slaves controlled by the illusion of freedom by corupting our souls with material addiction? Don't imagine that will be a best seller.

Me I see different systems of criminals controlling the masses. One uses Big Macs, Cokes, and vices to do it, the other brutal physical violence.

Excuse me if I prefer the American vice approach. I have found in the American system I can spit out the pill when no one is looking. In the other systems they shove it down your throat and up your butt at the same time.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go ring up another debt then go to psychoanalysis to discuss why these debts chase me in the form of Angelina Jolie with fangs in my dreams and then morphs into Madonna laughing at me hysterically as I try hold in my stomach. Its a cruel world.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Rue

[PoliticalCitizen]

From Russia Today:

Medvedev exclusive: We’re not afraid of Cold War

With the Russian parliament backing the independence of the breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, President Dmitry Medvedev gives his views on the issue in an exclusive interview with RT.

RT: Immediately after Kosovo’s independence was recognised, Moscow said this could become a precedent for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Today, you made a decision to support these republics’ independence. Why did Russia do it? Does this square with international law?

Medvedev: I'll start with your second question. This is fully in line with international law. When the case of Kosovo arose, my colleagues said this was a special case, or, as experts in international affairs say, casus sui generis. Well, each case of such recognition is a special case. The situation in Kosovo was special, and the situation in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is special as well.

In our situation, it is quite obvious that we made this decision in order to prevent genocide and annihilation of these peoples, and to help them to come to their feet. These unrecognised republics have been struggling for their independence for seventeen years now. Despite all attempts by the international community, no progress was made during this time. Until just recently, we tried to help restore the state unite of Georgia. However, it didn’t work.

The decision to launch an aggression buried all hopes of achieving an agreement. Thus, under current circumstances, the only way to preserve these peoples is to recognise them as subjects of international law, to recognize their state independence.

That is why our decision is fully in line with international law, the UN Charter, Helsinki declarations and other international documents.

RT: Is Russia prepared for a long and tough confrontation with leading world powers that the decision it made today may lead to? And, in general, aren’t we afraid of the prospect to enter another Cold War?

Medvedev: We are not afraid of anything, the prospect of another Cold War included. Of course, we don't want that. In this situation, everything depends on the stand of our partners in the world community, our partners in the West. If they want to preserve good relations with Russia, they will understand the reason for making such a decision, and the situation will be calm. But if they choose a confrontational scenario, well, we‘ve been through all kinds of situations, and we’ll survive.

RT: You have signed the six-point agreement. One of the points says Russia should pull its troops out of Georgia. Nevertheless, Russia is still being accused of not meeting this obligation. Is this true? Are there Russian troops left in Georgia?

Medvedev: That's not true. Russia has fully met its obligations stemming from the six principles of the so-called Medvedev-Sarkozi agreement. Our troops have been withdrawn from Georgia, except for the so-called security corridor.

RT: The presidential campaign is underway in the US. Both candidates have spoken more than once on Russia’s actions in Georgia. Don’t you think this situation is being used as an instrument for the political struggle inside the US?

Medvedev: Well, as far as I know, usually during the elections in the United States of America, voters are quite indifferent to what is happening abroad. But if one of the candidates managed to use this question, well, godspeed him. The main thing is that it should not lead to international tensions. I have no doubt that both candidates will try to spin this situation for his purposes. But such are the rules of the election campaign.

[PoliticalCitizen]

If that is your idea of what socialism is I have one word for you-oy.

There is nothing socialist about China. The fact that the state has a monopoly on all its economic activities does not mean its socialist. You need to be sent to reducation camp.

I am telling Hugo Chavez what you said.

LOL

Are you trying to teach me Socialism, Rue?

What I meant is the way China handled the transition from a dysfunctional “Socialist economy” that had no chance to a very successful Capitalist economy in an intelligently planned, gracefully organized way that was very much unlike drunk Eltsin’s “Steal what you can while you can!” privatization of national goods that happened in Russia.

Tell Hugo his country can get Russian rockets deployed now due to a change in climate

[PoliticalCitizen]

A very interesting and detailed speach explaining your views, Rue, thank you for that.

Here is where I disagree. I believe history probably could be used to show you might make a strong argument for the above but only with conventional wars.

What history has also shown is that if the fighting is not carried out according to convential rules of war, but instead becomes prolonged terrorist attacks and guerilla war, the above comment is dead wrong.

In fact the tactics of Mandela, Ghandi and Martin Luther King appear to be the more tactical way to go if you can't engage in a conventional war-that or the MacDonald's Coca Cola formula. In the former you appeal to people's idealism and there is no short term dramatic change but in the long term the society collapses from within forcing the change as more and more people passively take on the behavior of resistance. In the latter formula, you take over countries appealing to their vices. Either way appears far more effective then terrorism or guerilla war where no conventional war can be carried out.

Contrary to your beliefs you will find that in a guerilla war the indigenous population usually wins. Who do you think you're fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq? Afghanis and Iraqis. Who do you think Russia fought in Chechnya? Chechens. Not Taliban or "Terror", or terrorists, or Muslim extremists or any other notions that were used. In the end indigenous people prevails if not fully exterminated or displaced.

So let us get down to the pith and substance of this current conflict. We have on the one hand a Western economic alliance and that is all NATO symbolizes, between the US and the European Union who are reluctant allies with Japan because of their shared dependency on oil and inter-connected corporate economic activities. On the other hand you have Russia, essentially the remainder of a collapsed failed government monopoly economic system whose former enforcers the KGB still run the country only now they have formed an alliance with the only organized economic entity in Russia, the MOB.

Russia is nothing but the MOB using its alliance with the KGB's ability to control the state, to have a complete stranglehold on all economic activity and prevent any competition within Russia. In that respect Russia is no different then China, a state monopoly. In Russia's case the MOB is just not as subtle as the Chinese government in its brutality and predatory pricing and economic control. Unlike China it sees no need to pretend.

I disagree about the Mob part. Putin took from the Mob some of what was stolen during the "Privatization" and gave back to the State.

I could also argue that US is run by the mob / military complex and only using "Democracy" and "Freedom" as a ruse. In fact, it is not even trying too mask the true nature of the power that hard anymore - it is being inherited by a stupid son from a mediocre father with the help of a brother... or from frisky husband to ice-cold wife... Obviously, none of these candidates were selected by the people. They were selected by money and relations, just like in a Monarchy.

Russia is extremely lucky that after a rotten drunk the power got into the hands of a strong leader.

I still regard China as a better model… but we are different people. Russians like more freedom than Chinese, they are less obedient. That’s why Putin, as I said before, has to walk a thin line between an authoritarian ruler and a “Democratically Elected” Prime Minister.

Russia wants to sell its oil to the West and regain its superstar power status. To regain its status it needs to be able to sell that oil. As long as the West can get it from somewhere else, it stalls Russia's quest to become a superstar. So its obvious and blatant what is happening. The economic constellation of Japan, the US and the European Union and those former Eastern block countries wishing to get out from Russian control which to find an alternative way not to have to deal with Russia. So we have a war in Afghanistan which is all about trying to secure oil pipelines. We have a war in Iraq which we all know is over securing pipelines.

The conflict in Georgia its over pipelines. Doesn't take a genius to see these conflicts arise around pipelines.

Georgia is a threat to Russia for one real reason, it provides pipelines that would by-pass Russia. In theory if Afghanistan on the ground and Iraq on the ground were secured, those pipelines would make there way to Europe without the need to get oil from Russia.

Russia is not stupid. So they do what they do. They incite Iran to trade in the Euro dollar not the American dollar and create havoic in the would oil market which directly causes the West to need Russian oil. Russia encourages Iran to send all their oil to China. Why not. By fueling China's economy it fuels the largest predatory pricing monster on world markets which again destabilize the Western economy.

Oil, huh? So we’re in the same boat then? Except Russia did not attack Georgia but stepped in to protect its citizens from genocide. A much nobler pretext than “WMD”, don’t you find?

Oh, and you see someone can actually TALK to Iran, not just threaten it (which is the only foreign policy method Bush's administration appears to possess)?

The World has divided into 3 economic constellations. The West which technically for now is the European Union, NATO members, Israel, Japan and North America. Then there is China and then there is India.

Russia doesn't no where to place itself. It wants to be an economic power on its own and feels with its strategic oil and other natural resource reserves it could easily be. The problem is it has no infrastructure. The MOB does not invest in Russia. They do not invest in roads, buildings, education so unlike China and India which do exactly that its not going to be able to compete with their state run/dominated economies or the free enterprise economy of the West. It is an economic outlaw and as the Mafia can tell you, if the Russian MOB is to survive it has to legitimize itself. It can't hook up with the Vatican to launder its money, that is already been done by the Mafia.

It can't hook up with the Columbian and Latin American drug cartels because in Latin America, you only deal with your own kind certainly not the Russian mob. As much as Hugo Chavez spews off at the mouth, he certainly isn't re-routing his oil to China or North Korea to assist his socialist bretheren nor is he telling the drug cartels who have made his country their Switzerland banking centre, to spend the money on the masses.

Its all about strategic positioning to protect economic interests.

Everyone is a whore. The only difference is some people think the Americans are the only ones to engage in prostitution. When anyone else does it, we get this sanctimonious talk about who started it and how Russia feels alienated. Right. Russia is not some pathetic victim lashing out in frustration. It is a country run by cold, calculated, professional killers that would snap your head off in seconds and not shed a tear.

As far as I am concerned if Russia's MOB had any intelligence, instead of acting like the typical head strung potatoe vodka drunken brutes they love to embrace culturally they should learn to stop drinking and t raping and learn to engage in foreplay. Russia just does not understand you need to have foreplay before you have economic intercourse.

Foreplay in this case means inviting Western captialists into your country and not being afraid of them and letting them operate and instead of trying to control everything they do with a sledgehammer, simply take a heft percentage of it and get them dependent on your market, then slowly yank up your taxes on them once they get hooked.

They are the classic thug who thinks they can rule by brute force. Chicago style went out years ago and was replaced by the more subtle Myer Lansky Tony Soprano approach. Today's criminals set up elaborate trade networks and do not resort to the blowing off of heads as much. Its far easier to pay someone off and give them a direct vested financial interest in cooperating. The need for brute force has given way to elaborate webs of international corporate networks.

My first remark is off-topic and we can continue discussing it in another thread if you wish: The only "constellation" that Israel could be placed in is the Apartheid constellation, right up there with the US, South Africa and Nazi Germany.

Not only Russia “knows” where to place itself – it is already very well placed on world’s largest piece of land and in good position to sell its military technology and natural products to the whole of Eurasia.

Russia’s infrastructure is well ahead of Chinese (still mostly a rural country) and light-years ahead of Indian (which doesn’t exist).

“Foreplay” as in “Why don’t you get raped for a few decades, eventually you’ll start enjoying our relationship” kind of deal?

The “elaborate webs of international corporate networks” is a western approach.

Chinese approach is state company buys your “intricate networks” deal at a wholesale price.

Russian approach is a few oligarchs buy big stakes in whatever they like (Magna corporation, for example).

Each has their methods.

Calling Russians “brutes” and “thugs” doesn’t help us love each other…

Now in Western material society when the masses put on their chains of slavery, they welcome them. Each chain or debt rung up from the addiction to material gratification is welcomed as evidence of their freedom.

You want me to pontificate and say all we Westerners are slaves controlled by the illusion of freedom by corupting our souls with material addiction? Don't imagine that will be a best seller.

Me I see different systems of criminals controlling the masses. One uses Big Macs, Cokes, and vices to do it, the other brutal physical violence.

Excuse me if I prefer the American vice approach. I have found in the American system I can spit out the pill when no one is looking. In the other systems they shove it down your throat and up your butt at the same time.

Everyone is subject to material goods addiction, but to a different degree.

Americans have been blind to their 10 Trillion in national debt as they fight the “War on Terror”.

Russians may be blind to the economic abyss that the fallout from the Georgian war may bring.

Vice approach is working very well for Afghanistan with their Heroin Superstar status.

I am pretty sure that scientists could come up with a drug that has minimal side-effects with a maximal “high” effect (kind of like ecstasy). Maybe they already did… And a certain country that doesn’t have the fake moral scruples (jailtime for ganja) of most western countries could legalize and export it… Wouldn’t be so “American” anymore, would it?

Now if you will excuse me I have to go ring up another debt then go to psychoanalysis to discuss why these debts chase me in the form of Angelina Jolie with fangs in my dreams and then morphs into Madonna laughing at me hysterically as I try hold in my stomach. Its a cruel world.

And I need to get back to my bottle of vodka, beating my wife and shooting posters of Bush and Saakashvili in the basement...

I'm glad to see you keep your sense of humor.

But we also need to get rid of our stereotypes.

Cheers!

[blueblood]

Here is where I disagree. I believe history probably could be used to show you might make a strong argument for the above but only with conventional wars.

What history has also shown is that if the fighting is not carried out according to convential rules of war, but instead becomes prolonged terrorist attacks and guerilla war, the above comment is dead wrong.

In fact the tactics of Mandela, Ghandi and Martin Luther King appear to be the more tactical way to go if you can't engage in a conventional war-that or the MacDonald's Coca Cola formula. In the former you appeal to people's idealism and there is no short term dramatic change but in the long term the society collapses from within forcing the change as more and more people passively take on the behaviour of resistance. In the latter formula, you take over countries appealing to their vices. Either way appears far more effective then terrorism or guerilla war where no conventional war can be carried out.

So let us get down to the pith and substance of this current conflict. We have on the one hand a Western economic alliance and that is all NATO symbolizes, between the US and the European Union who are reluctant allies with Japan because of their shared dependency on oil and inter-connected corporate economic activities. On the other hand you have Russia, essentially the remainder of a collapsed failed government monopoly economic system whose former enforcers the KGB still run the country only now they have formed an alliance with the only organized economic entity in Russia, the MOB.

Russia is nothing but the MOB using its alliance with the KGB's ability to control the state, to have a complete stranglehold on all economic activity and prevent any competition within Russia. In that respect Russia is no different then China, a state monopoly. In Russia's case the MOB is just not as subtle as the Chinese government in its brutality and predatory pricing and economic control. Unlike China it sees no need to pretend.

Russia wants to sell its oil to the West and regain its superstar power status. To regain its status it needs to be able to sell that oil. As long as the West can get it from somewhere else, it stalls Russia's quest to become a superstar. So its obvious and blatant what is happening. The economic constellation of Japan, the US and the European Union and those former Eastern block countries wishing to get out from Russian control which to find an alternative way not to have to deal with Russia. So we have a war in Afghanistan which is all about trying to secure oil pipelines. We have a war in Iraq which we all know is over securing pipelines.

The conflict in Georgia its over pipelines. Doesn't take a genius to see these conflicts arise around pipelines.

Georgia is a threat to Russia for one real reason, it provides pipelines that would by-pass Russia. In theory if Afghanistan on the ground and Iraq on the ground were secured, those pipelines would make there way to Europe without the need to get oil from Russia.

Russia is not stupid. So they do what they do. They incite Iran to trade in the Euro dollar not the American dollar and create havoic in the would oil market which directly causes the West to need Russian oil. Russia encourages Iran to send all their oil to China. Why not. By fueling China's economy it fuels the largest predatory pricing monster on world markets which again destabilize the Western economy.

The World has divided into 3 economic constellations. The West which technically for now is the European Union, NATO members, Israel, Japan and North America. Then there is China and then there is India.

Russia doesn't no where to place itself. It wants to be an economic power on its own and feels with its strategic oil and other natural resource reserves it could easily be. The problem is it has no infrastructure. The MOB does not invest in Russia. They do not invest in roads, buildings, education so unlike China and India which do exactly that its not going to be able to compete with their state run/dominated economies or the free enterprise economy of the West. It is an economic outlaw and as the Mafia can tell you, if the Russian MOB is to survive it has to legitimize itself. It can't hook up with the Vatican to launder its money, that is already been done by the Mafia.

It can't hook up with the Columbian and Latin American drug cartels because in Latin America, you only deal with your own kind certainly not the Russian mob. As much as Hugo Chavez spews off at the mouth, he certainly isn't re-routing his oil to China or North Korea to assist his socialist bretheren nor is he telling the drug cartels who have made his country their Switzerland banking centre, to spend the money on the masses.

Its all about strategic positioning to protect economic interests.

Everyone is a whore. The only difference is some people think the Americans are the only ones to engage in prostitution. When anyone else does it, we get this sanctimonious talk about who started it and how Russia feels alienated. Right. Russia is not some pathetic victim lashing out in frustration. It is a country run by cold, calculated, professional killers that would snap your head off in seconds and not shed a tear.

As far as I am concerned if Russia's MOB had any intelligence, instead of acting like the typical head strung potatoe vodka drunken brutes they love to embrace culturally they should learn to stop drinking and t raping and learn to engage in foreplay. Russia just does not understand you need to have foreplay before you have economic intercourse.

Foreplay in this case means inviting Western captialists into your country and not being afraid of them and letting them operate and instead of trying to control everything they do with a sledgehammer, simply take a heft percentage of it and get them dependent on your market, then slowly yank up your taxes on them once they get hooked.

They are the classic thug who thinks they can rule by brute force. Chicago style went out years ago and was replaced by the more subtle Myer Lansky Tony Soprano approach. Today's criminals set up elaborate trade networks and do not resort to the blowing off of heads as much. Its far easier to pay someone off and give them a direct vested financial interest in cooperating. The need for brute force has given way to elaborate webs of international corporate networks.

Now in Western material society when the masses put on their chains of slavery, they welcome them. Each chain or debt rung up from the addiction to material gratification is welcomed as evidence of their freedom.

You want me to pontificate and say all we Westerners are slaves controlled by the illusion of freedom by corupting our souls with material addiction? Don't imagine that will be a best seller.

Me I see different systems of criminals controlling the masses. One uses Big Macs, Cokes, and vices to do it, the other brutal physical violence.

Excuse me if I prefer the American vice approach. I have found in the American system I can spit out the pill when no one is looking. In the other systems they shove it down your throat and up your butt at the same time.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go ring up another debt then go to psychoanalysis to discuss why these debts chase me in the form of Angelina Jolie with fangs in my dreams and then morphs into Madonna laughing at me hysterically as I try hold in my stomach. Its a cruel world.

Very interesting, my question is, if the US is seeming to plan an energy independance initiative on the same level as the space race of the 60's, what will happen then???

I believe that if the US pulls this off, Russia is royally screwed.

Edited August 27, 2008 by blueblood

[Argus]

That’s why Putin, as I said before, has to walk a thin line between an authoritarian ruler and a “Democratically Elected” Prime Minister.

What line are you talking about? It seems to me that when you imprison or murder anyone who doesn't do what you tell them you are completely across that line into authoritarianism.

Oil, huh? So we’re in the same boat then? Except Russia did not attack Georgia but stepped in to protect its citizens from genocide. A much nobler pretext than “WMD”, don’t you find?

Russia had no citizens in Georgia. Giving another country's citizens passports does not make them your citizens nor give you a pretext to invade that other country to protect them from the police when they rob banks.

[PoliticalCitizen]

What line are you talking about? It seems to me that when you imprison or murder anyone who doesn't do what you tell them you are completely across that line into authoritarianism.

What are you referring to?

Wikipedia:

According to the Constitution, which was adopted by national referendum on 12 December 1993 following the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis, Russia is a federation and formally a semi-presidential republic, wherein the President is the head of state[85] and the Prime Minister is the head of government. The Russian Federation is fundamentally structured as a representative democracy. Executive power is exercised by the government.[86] Legislative power is vested in the two chambers of the Federal Assembly.[87] The government is regulated by a system of checks and balances defined by the Constitution of the Russian Federation, which serves as the country's supreme legal document and as a social contract for the people of the Russian Federation.

It's one of the younger democracies but even the established ones kill someone inconvenient every once in a while (Kennedy).

Russia had no citizens in Georgia. Giving another country's citizens passports does not make them your citizens nor give you a pretext to invade that other country to protect them from the police when they rob banks.

Your statement reflects the ass-backwards image that Western mass media has been sucessfully projecting.

The 2 regions were Autonomous before first Georgian president Gamsakhurdia "dissolved" them thus igniting the civil war.

Georgia has NEVER controlled these 2 regions. Georigian "unification" solution was to exterminate the indigenous population. Russia offered Abkhazians and Ossetians citizenship to give them some kind of protection as well as a posibility to find refuge in Russia.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I guess you guys were right saying that Russian "brutes" and "thugs" know nothing about diplomacy.

Indeed, they have a lot to learn from the West - just check out the monumental peace efforts below:

1) Bush may (or already is) provide Georgia with Stinger and Javelin missles:

WASHINGTON, Aug 27 (Reuters) - U.S. military planners have begun pondering the thorny question of how Georgia's shattered armed forces might be rebuilt without provoking a Russian backlash that could risk direct confrontation with Moscow....

NO 'FREE RIDE' FOR RUSSIA

Some analysts say the Bush administration could deter further Russian action by quickly sending sophisticated Stinger anti-aircraft missiles and portable anti-tank guided-missile systems known as Javelins to Georgia...

2) Miliband is working to build an Anti-Russian alliance, starting with Ukraine:

BBC: UK urges tough response to Russia

UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called on the EU and Nato to initiate "hard-headed engagement" with Russia in response to its actions in Georgia. In a speech in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he urged them to bolster their allies, rebalance the energy relationship with Russia and defend international law.

3) McCain is ready to free Chechnya:

IA Regnum reports that Senator McCain, after hearing about Russia’s recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states, said today that Western states should now think seriously about the independence of the North Caucasus and Chechnya. “I think in the next week or so we will have a serious discussion about this. Russia accuses the West of double standards. We also accuse the Kremlin of double standards when it comes to Chechnya and the North Caucasus.”

Yes, there's still a lot to learn about fine diplomacy...

[jbg]

Georgia has NEVER controlled these 2 regions. Georigian "unification" solution was to exterminate the indigenous population. Russia offered Abkhazians and Ossetians citizenship to give them some kind of protection as well as a posibility to find refuge in Russia.

How many Ossetians and/or Ahbazians (sp) did Georgia "exterminate"?

[blueblood]

I guess you guys were right saying that Russian "brutes" and "thugs" know nothing about diplomacy.

Indeed, they have a lot to learn from the West - just check out the monumental peace efforts below:

1) Bush may (or already is) provide Georgia with Stinger and Javelin missles:

WASHINGTON, Aug 27 (Reuters) - U.S. military planners have begun pondering the thorny question of how Georgia's shattered armed forces might be rebuilt without provoking a Russian backlash that could risk direct confrontation with Moscow....

NO 'FREE RIDE' FOR RUSSIA

Some analysts say the Bush administration could deter further Russian action by quickly sending sophisticated Stinger anti-aircraft missiles and portable anti-tank guided-missile systems known as Javelins to Georgia...

2) Miliband is working to build an Anti-Russian alliance, starting with Ukraine:

BBC: UK urges tough response to Russia

UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called on the EU and Nato to initiate "hard-headed engagement" with Russia in response to its actions in Georgia. In a speech in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he urged them to bolster their allies, rebalance the energy relationship with Russia and defend international law.

3) McCain is ready to free Chechnya:

IA Regnum reports that Senator McCain, after hearing about Russia’s recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states, said today that Western states should now think seriously about the independence of the North Caucasus and Chechnya. “I think in the next week or so we will have a serious discussion about this. Russia accuses the West of double standards. We also accuse the Kremlin of double standards when it comes to Chechnya and the North Caucasus.”

Yes, there's still a lot to learn about fine diplomacy...

I'm accusing you of a big double standard. You chose to live in the "evil west". If Russia is the light of the world hop on a plane. Your arguments have as much credibility as Chretien during sponsorship. It's funny you defend Russia, but you chose to flee from there, priceless.

MikeDavid00 would have a bird if he read this thread.

[jbg]

I'm accusing you of a big double standard. You chose to live in the "evil west". If Russia is the light of the world hop on a plane. Your arguments have as much credibility as Chretien during sponsorship. It's funny you defend Russia, but you chose to flee from there, priceless.

I'll tell you one thing about fleeing to Russia. They might return to a policy of having a "one-way door", making fleeing from there difficult.

PoliticalCitizen wouldn't want to be stuck in that wonderful country.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'll tell you one thing about fleeing to Russia. They might return to a policy of having a "one-way door", making fleeing from there difficult.

PoliticalCitizen wouldn't want to be stuck in that wonderful country.

That would be Russian "Roach Motel"......people check in, but they don't check out.

[Wild Bill]

I guess you guys were right saying that Russian "brutes" and "thugs" know nothing about diplomacy.

Indeed, they have a lot to learn from the West - just check out the monumental peace efforts below:

1) Bush may (or already is) provide Georgia with Stinger and Javelin missles:

WASHINGTON, Aug 27 (Reuters) - U.S. military planners have begun pondering the thorny question of how Georgia's shattered armed forces might be rebuilt without provoking a Russian backlash that could risk direct confrontation with Moscow....

NO 'FREE RIDE' FOR RUSSIA

Some analysts say the Bush administration could deter further Russian action by quickly sending sophisticated Stinger anti-aircraft missiles and portable anti-tank guided-missile systems known as Javelins to Georgia...

2) Miliband is working to build an Anti-Russian alliance, starting with Ukraine:

BBC: UK urges tough response to Russia

UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called on the EU and Nato to initiate "hard-headed engagement" with Russia in response to its actions in Georgia. In a speech in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he urged them to bolster their allies, rebalance the energy relationship with Russia and defend international law.

3) McCain is ready to free Chechnya:

IA Regnum reports that Senator McCain, after hearing about Russia’s recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states, said today that Western states should now think seriously about the independence of the North Caucasus and Chechnya. “I think in the next week or so we will have a serious discussion about this. Russia accuses the West of double standards. We also accuse the Kremlin of double standards when it comes to Chechnya and the North Caucasus.”

Yes, there's still a lot to learn about fine diplomacy...

Forgive me, but are you not essentially trying to refute good points with: "I know you are but what am I?"

I used to use this tactic when I was a child. My mother would accuse me of doing something and I would try to divert her by pointing out something one of my brothers had done, hoping she would forget about my own actions.

It did work on occasion but only once in a while. It also cost me support from my brothers that later I could have used.

[PoliticalCitizen]

How many Ossetians and/or Ahbazians (sp) did Georgia "exterminate"?

Since the numbers are being disputed I'll just say the plan was to kill enough to make the others flee, possibly to kill as much as they can.

[PoliticalCitizen]

That would be Russian "Roach Motel"......people check in, but they don't check out.

That was the case with Soviet Union, not Russia.

Hey, that sleazy CNN reporter who got an exclusive interview from Putin himself but chose to share with you only about 5% of it is still alive, isn't he?

[PoliticalCitizen]

Forgive me, but are you not essentially trying to refute good points with: "I know you are but what am I?"

I used to use this tactic when I was a child. My mother would accuse me of doing something and I would try to divert her by pointing out something one of my brothers had done, hoping she would forget about my own actions.

It did work on occasion but only once in a while. It also cost me support from my brothers that later I could have used.

I'm not trying to refute anything. Russia needs no excuse for its actions, and in the long run will be praised for saving 2 ethnic groups from slaugter.

The point of my post was that even though everybody keeps saying "We don't want another Cold War" they are trying their hardest to do exactly that, and maybe even more.

What is up with the concentration of NATO ships in the Black Sea? They have no business being there.

Is NATO really trying to THREATEN Russia militarily?

And are you, critics of Russian politics, OK with that?

[AngusThermopyle]

Is NATO really trying to THREATEN Russia militarily?

They don't have to threaten Russia. Putin is well aware that Russia is no longer a match for the west.

[PoliticalCitizen]

They don't have to threaten Russia. Putin is well aware that Russia is no longer a match for the west.

And the West is aware they're no match for Russia on Russia's home turf.

[M.Dancer]

What is up with the concentration of NATO ships in the Black Sea? They have no business being there.

Really? I guess No one told Turkey.

Then in that case if Russian vessels vacate the Med, Altlantic, Arctic, Indian and Pacific Oceans, I;m sure NATO ships delivering humainitarian aid kind finds a better route.

Edited August 28, 2008 by M.Dancer

[PoliticalCitizen]

Really? I guess No one told Turkey.

Then in that case if Russian vessels vacate the Med, Altlantic, Arctic, Indian and Pacific Oceans, I;m sure NATO ships delivering humainitarian aid kind finds a better route.

Delivering "Vigurous Humanitarian Aid" using warships? Hmmm.. Right.

Well "Goods" delivered - get out

[AngusThermopyle]

Delivering "Vigurous Humanitarian Aid" using warships? Hmmm.. Right.

Well "Goods" delivered - get out

Its common practice to use Naval ships for humanitarian aid, Canada does it all the time.

Why the hell should they get out of a port that is not Russian, especially when they are welcomed by the government that owns the port?

[PoliticalCitizen]

Its common practice to use Naval ships for humanitarian aid, Canada does it all the time.

Why the hell should they get out of a port that is not Russian, especially when they are welcomed by the government that owns the port?

They appear to be on a planned exercise (let's hope that's what it really is):

http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2008/p08-110e.html

NATO ships in Black Sea on routine visit, unrelated to Georgia crisis

The Standing NATO Maritime Group One (SNMG1), a group of NATO warships, conducts routine port visits and exercises with NATO member nations bordering the Black Sea since 21 August.

This deployment is routine in nature and has been planned for over a year, notification of the requirement to transit the Turkish Straits was given in June well before the current Georgia crisis and is completely unrelated. In accordance with the terms of the Montreux Convention, the ships will stay no longer than 21 days in the Black Sea.

SNMG 1 currently comprises the Spanish SPS Adm Juan de Borbon, the German, FGS Luebeck and the Polish, ORP General K Pulaski and the US frigate, USS Taylor.

A fifth member of SNMG1, the Canadian frigate HMCS Ville de Quebec, was recently detached from the group to escort World Food Programme shipping off the coast of Somalia under Canadian national authority.

The ships are currently in Constanta, Romania and will conduct exercises with Bulgarian and Romanian ships as well as paying a port visit to Varna, Bulgaria before leaving the Black Sea.

SNMG 1 is one of NATO’s standing elements, a group of member nations' frigates and destroyers, who exercise together year round to promote interoperability.

Vice-Admiral Pim Bedet, Deputy Commander Allied Maritime Component Command Headquarters Northwood stated “SNMG1, as a standing core element of the NATO Response Force, is conducting a pre-planned routine visit to the Black Sea region to interact and exercise with our NATO partners Romania and Bulgaria, which is an important feature of our routine planning in order to maintain high levels of interoperability and cohesion within the Alliance."

[bush_cheney2004]

They appear to be on a planned exercise (let's hope that's what it really is):

So what if they aren't? Back during Cold War, US Navy has big fun by sending nuclear cruisers into the Black Sea just to exercise the right to do so (international waters).....and tweak Ivan's nose.