Open warfare in South Ossetia

Kaisa · September 9, 2008

I also distinctly remember an article, in one of the last two Sunday (New York )Times Magazine sections of 1971 featuring Akbazia and the fact that at the time they had some of the worlds oldest people.

That's right

PoliticalCitizen · September 10, 2008

No question, Niagara Falls, New York (like many upstate NY cities) is a sh**hole. This followed the replacement of the Erie Canal by the Saint Lawrence Seaway as the major corridor of water transportation in the area. The Canadian side has always been better, even before the decline of upstate New York. As far as the rest of your remark, yes, I, like most Americans, are very proud of my country. We have accomplished a lot here. We have banished most inter-ethnic conflicts, and harnessed people's energies to work together. We do not have a Quebec. We do not have a Russia-Georgia-Ossetia-Ahkazia. We do not have a Russia-Chechnya.

Hey jbg, I honestly am proud of America too (not as a citizen but as part of the human race).

For a long while, back when I live in USSR it was a clandestine symbol of freedom and progress and all things that are cool, like jeans, rock'n'roll, Coca-Cola and chewing gum. Then - cars, computers, space shuttles... lots of things to be proud of.

But believe me that inter-ethnic conflicts are possible everywhere, especially once the central government fails as it did in USSR.

Let me give you a scenario:

- Imagine the colonists have not exterminated all Indians but instead gave them 2 or 3 states, enforced the federal laws and build infrastructure etc.

- At the same time imagine that a few state at the South are Spanish-speaking and one at the North is French, but all of them have English as the state language

- Now imagine that because of an crysis of unknown nature (I don't want to give anybody any ideas) the US government fails and most states decide to go independent

- The 3 Indian states immediately begin fighting one another and the rest of the neighboring states

- The Spanish states unite and start ethnic cleansing to get rid of English-speaking population

- The French state gets invaded by neigboring English states to pay back for some last-century conflict

- Etc. etc. etc.

You get the picture...

Edited September 10, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

PoliticalCitizen · September 10, 2008

I am not arguing the facts, but we have different interpretation.
I think that no Russian neighbour is 100% safe and it is wise to build an army when you are in a situation Georgia was.

It appears that you're ignoring simple logic - even if ALL of Georgia's population that can fight would be drafted Russia would still crush this army without too much of an effort.

Georgian army was assembled, trained and equipped specifically for the purpose of taking the 2 provinces back BY FORCE.

I hope that we will rebuild an even stronger army and learn from our mistakes.
Wait, I said we tolerated a very difficult situation for 17 years, you said we havent been tolerating since we were provoking (militarily) constantly. I hope you realize that you cannot prove your false point with the argument above because the time horizon is different.

Russia is asking EU to introduce an arms embargo for Georgia.

No amount of provocations can justify the military onslaught of Georgian army on Tshinval.

myata · September 18, 2008

It may have warranted a thread of its own, but for the sake of saving space let it just go here.

Rice - On Russia/Ossetia (BBC).

Highlights:

"The Georgian government launched a major military operation into Tskhinvali [the capital of South Ossetia] and other areas of that separatist region," she said.
"Regrettably, several Russian peacekeepers were killed in the fighting," she added.

At last, an admission. Hopefully to settle all doubts about who's responsible.

"Russia's leaders violated Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity and launched a full-scale invasion across an internationally recognised border,"

OMG. After all, "violation of sovereignty" is not OK? Even with a super strong case like non-existent WMD in Iraq (see above for Russia's in Ossetia)? Who could have thought!

The promise of Nato membership had been a positive incentive for states to build democratic institutions and reform their economies, she added.
And she insisted that Russia would not be allowed to dictate who joined the Nato alliance.

Now let's remember that unlike EU, NATO is a defense allegiance. Promise of military involvement as instrument of peace? Trying to follow the logic. And of course there were committments to hold off expansion of NATO, given to Russia at the time of perestroika. Which can be also interpreted as responding to Russia's concerns of being surrounded by a huge military block on virtually all sides (save North). But our committments, they are a funny thing. They work in one direction - one that suits us and us only.

That one is at least is clear:

"are putting Russia on a one-way path to self-imposed isolation and international irrelevance".

Play to our tune, or face our wrath (oops not much to show for it, at this time - but at least we tried). Of course "isolation" only exists in Ms.Rice's vivid imagination. As was already noted, outside of West's immediate proximity, not a single country condemned Russia for its actions (but many expressed support, of a varying degree).

PoliticalCitizen · September 19, 2008

As far as the conflict goes - it's over.

Russian troops have begun withdrawing from the buffer zones and should complete that in October, as the EU peacekeepers start coming in to replace the Russians.

Oleg Bach · September 19, 2008

As far as the conflict goes - it's over.
Russian troops have begun withdrawing from the buffer zones and should complete that in October, as the EU peacekeepers start coming in to replace the Russians.

So what's really happening is that the EU as an authoritarian force in the region is simply taking the place of Russian troops. In plain English - The EU is saying that WE are the rule of international European law and Russia had better step aside and fall in line. Looks like the EU is simply pulling rank and displacing the Russians are invaders....IF Russia is gone from the area - then why do they need peace keepers? Supposedly peace should be attained by the removal of Russian troops - looks like the EU is just pushing Russia aside as a show of force...so it's either Russia or the EU to control the disputed area - or maybe the EU does not like those attempting to create an atonomous region? Maybe the EU has a globalist mentality as now does NATO - Maybe Russia wants a private empire? :rolleyes:

AngusThermopyle · September 19, 2008

Imagine the colonists have not exterminated all Indians

I hate to throw water on your little fantasy but here's a news flash. The colonists have not and did not exterminate all Indians. Thats why they still live in North America (Natives that is) because they weren't exterminated. Or were there some other Indians perhaps, you know, the exterminated ones.

Oleg Bach · September 19, 2008

I hate to throw water on your little fantasy but here's a news flash. The colonists have not and did not exterminate all Indians. Thats why they still live in North America (Natives that is) because they weren't exterminated. Or were there some other Indians perhaps, you know, the exterminated ones.

Natives are still here but most are suffering like prisoners of war - fourth generation prisoners..as in a zoo enviornment - some animals thrive in captivity and some do not take well to being controled in what is an un-natural state. Remember, the white devils waged a cultural and territorial war against the natives and practiced an insidious form of internal displacement on the native populace - much like our politicals and buisness leaders practice a type of globalist internal displacement of the whites and their decendants that established our little empire. Ever wonder why when you are the only white guy on the subway ....

- that you are called a majority - while those that have displaced you by sheer volume of numbers are the "visable minority"? Sounds like a lie to me - so as we displaced the indians - now we are being displaced by our disloyal and heartless elite that bring in what they believe to be cheap labour to maintain the status quo - good for the goose good for the gander - we double crossed the natives and now we are being double crossed by the same guys - our own extended family of cruel and greedy elite.

PoliticalCitizen · September 19, 2008

I hate to throw water on your little fantasy but here's a news flash. The colonists have not and did not exterminate all Indians. Thats why they still live in North America (Natives that is) because they weren't exterminated. Or were there some other Indians perhaps, you know, the exterminated ones.

You know what I meant - as in they would have 2 states of their own.

Oleg Bach · September 19, 2008

You know what I meant - as in they would have 2 states of their own.

The native elders that prosper in Canada are the ones that finally realized that government and buisness run by whites is just a fancey dancey high level crimminal enterprise...why do you thing Caladonia has taken so long? It's because the native elders have the dirt on their white mafia counterparts - good old fashioned blackmail... :lol:

jbg · September 20, 2008

If you think that most inter-ethnic conflicts have been banished, then why is gang warefare (which for the most part is very ethnic) such a problem in most major cities in North American. Gang wars are very ethnic and cause much trouble in Toronto, and I also see some of it here in Ottawa. Los Angeles is a major center for ethnic gangs.
Having a 'Quebec' is not necessary to have ethnic conflicts.

With all due respect, the Crips and the Bloods and similar conflict occur in ethnic communities but are not "inter-ethnic". I am not saying we are a paradise with no strife; I am saying that ethnic strife is far less than present in the examples I gave.

Perhaps the American Civil War proved to be an example for groups that want the benefits but not the drawbacks of being part of the US.

jbg · September 20, 2008

- The 3 Indian states immediately begin fighting one another and the rest of the neighboring states
- The Spanish states unite and start ethnic cleansing to get rid of English-speaking population

- The French state gets invaded by neigboring English states to pay back for some last-century conflict

- Etc. etc. etc.

You get the picture...

I sure do. Which is why the US has never allowed that to happen.

PoliticalCitizen · September 20, 2008

I sure do. Which is why the US has never allowed that to happen.

I was not trying to paint a realistic scenario - just one that would show what happened with the dissolution of USSR on the example of dissolution of USA.

Brezhnev · September 21, 2008

To me laziness to re-read all 40 pages. The first page has sufficed me! There one mister has expressed opinion that in Georgia representative democracy! Whom does it represent? Democracy means elections! However Saakashvili has come to power on a crest of a wave of revolution! <_<

Brezhnev · September 22, 2008

I wish to agitate nobody! But in my understanding this conflict looks approximately so!

Other sight at events

P.S.: Pictures are not displayed at a forum (((So should be?

Kaisa · September 25, 2008

To me laziness to re-read all 40 pages. The first page has sufficed me! There one mister has expressed opinion that in Georgia representative democracy! Whom does it represent? Democracy means elections! However Saakashvili has come to power on a crest of a wave of revolution!

This is not true, of course.

Shevardnadze lost power after the revolution in November 2003.

Saakashvili was elected in January 2004.

Burjanadze was in charge between November-January.

Brezhnev · September 25, 2008

This is not true, of course.
Shevardnadze lost power after the revolution in November 2003.

Saakashvili was elected in January 2004.

Burjanadze was in charge between November-January.

Revolution of roses in Georgia. Orange revolution in Ukraine.

As do not name revolution - it remains revolution!

In these cases nobody spent elections!

Than these colour revolutions differ from revolution of banana republics? Differences are not present! Slogans others!

Kaisa · September 26, 2008

Revolution of roses in Georgia. Orange revolution in Ukraine.
As do not name revolution - it remains revolution!

In these cases nobody spent elections!

Than these colour revolutions differ from revolution of banana republics? Differences are not present! Slogans others!

If I did not speak Russian I would not understand what you meant by: "As do not name revolution". You sound just like my friend who asked someone "not to powder her mind". My english is far from being perfect but at least I dont translate every word of an idiom (in her case).

As for the rest, I already told you there were elections but you ignored that.

Brezhnev · September 26, 2008

If I did not speak Russian I would not understand what you meant by: "As do not name revolution". You sound just like my friend who asked someone "not to powder her mind". My english is far from being perfect but at least I dont translate every word of an idiom (in her case).
As for the rest, I already told you there were elections but you ignored that.

The first part has understood hardly!))) :lol:

My English too is not perfect! I should apply many efforts to understand about what there is a speech!)))

How many your video weighs?

myata · September 26, 2008

I think everybody should make an effort to keep their published artifacts intelligible (or else, avoid publishing them altogether till that possibiliity can be assured). If nobody can understand what you're saying, what would be the point of saying it?

Edited September 26, 2008 by myata

jbg · September 28, 2008

If nobody can understand what you're saying, what would be the point of saying it?

Ask Celine Stephane Dion that question on October 2, 2008.

myata · September 29, 2008

Yes I see the notorious US-style campaigning (kick your opponent whatever way possible at all, nobody will care once the election's over). The only patented way to get mental giants like Bush and Chaney at the helm with nuke buttons, and ,00,000 of ready to go wherever and for whatever reason (or no reason) commandos at fingertips. Now coming to a riding near you courtesy of CPC of Canada. Enjoy (your democracy) (while you still can).

bush_cheney2004 · September 29, 2008

Yes I see the notorious US-style campaigning (kick your opponent whatever way possible at all, nobody will care once the election's over).

As opposed to the notorious Canadian-style campaigning where constituents are bored to death and even less informed. Nobody will care even before the election.

The only patented way to get mental giants like Bush and Chaney at the helm with nuke buttons, and ,00,000 of ready to go wherever and for whatever reason (or no reason) commandos at fingertips.

Yea, just like JTF2! Let's go to Haiti and Afghanistan, eh? Meet new people...and kill them!

Rue · September 29, 2008

Ask Celine Stephane Dion that question on October 2, 2008.

I believe thta is what they refer to as a beeyitch slap. Ouch. Which reminds me, I am not sure what's worse, a politician no one understands, or a politician everyone things they understand. Both equally as problematic if you ask moi.

myata · September 29, 2008

Many of these terms: "information"; "understands" need to be put in the context, understood, taken critically, etc. E.g would the colour of underwear contender likes to wear be a meaningful information input to make an informed election decision? Or how he/she would appear in different colour schemes with varyingly suggestive backdrop? What about making them say something they never said, or take it out of context?

Now there was already a comment posted somewhere about the nature of "understanding". E.g if I don't understand (and am proud of it) basic grade 3 math, is there a problem with the math? Or with "everybodys"?

We may want to be careful as to how far we want to go in admiring our newly found stup(en)dity. The wish may just be granted, in a way of a self fulfilling prophecy.