Open warfare in South Ossetia

[PoliticalCitizen]

I hate to do this to you man...but can you provide a reference for that? a link, a cite, a remebered quote based on what your friend said when you guys were having a few wets last weekend?

How do you know what China agree's to or not? Thats just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

All that really counts is what appears on the stage of world opinion. In this case what appears is not at all what you would like to convince people of, instead what is appearing is a steady stream of condemnation and lack of support from even those most likely to support the USSR (sorry, couldn't resist that).

Just for you, my friend - a Chinese source (not Russian):

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/...ent_9727998.htm

As you can see, there's almost NOTHING about Abkhazia or South Ossetia, but there's a lot about friendly relations between Russia and China.

That's what I call (you are correct - it's an opinion that can be considered personal) silent agreement. As in: "We both know sh*t happened, it doesn't matter whose fault it was, you did what you needed to do. When it will be our turn to do what we need we expect you to be silent about it as well. "

[Argus]

I'll try to contribute as much as possible to the noble task of rasing public education above the junior high level, but only to the extent of my limited resources of which time is the most essential.

From what I've seen so far your resources are indeed limited, too limited, in fact, to even raise the level up to junior high level.

[Argus]

As I said before, according to both Russian media and an analysis published by Reuters, Abkhazia can do it on its own (with Russia being the biggest and for now the only economic partner). Its economy is mostly fueled by tourism to the Black Sea resorts.

South Ossetia is to small and lacks the necessary structures to make it on its own. In the future it may opt to join North Ossetia within Russian Federation.

And now that they've murdered or driven out all the ethnic georgians they can even hold a free vote on it!

If they can find anyone in Russia who knows how those work.

[Argus]

Another nice long post from you.

Medvedev said there are 25 million Russians that ended up locked in foreign countries after the break-up of USSR. Most of them are probably in Ukraine (Krimea was never really "Ukrainian").

So yeah, it is a clear message - you f*ck with our citizens - we f*ck you up real good and let the West watch madly and helplessly as you're hung out to dry...

I just HOPE Ukraine got the lesson...

Do you really think the likes of Putin or Medvedev (Putin's errand boy) give a crap about the welfare of Russian citizens in our outside of Russia?

Edited August 29, 2008 by Argus

[AngusThermopyle]

Oh, the map that you checked - you may need to check it again in a couple of months or so. After the recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by Russia Georgia will be attacking another country if they try to "re-unite" again. And the retaliation will be much more powerful than this time.

I'll bet you'll have to check it again, now that Putin is showing his true colours and getting Russia back on the road to becoming the USSR again. So which small country will he invade next? What blatantly overt ruse will he use this time, more passports of convenience?

we f*ck you up real good and let the West watch madly and helplessly as you're hung out to dry...

Sure, Russia is good at f*cking up small countries with small militaries. The West standing by helplessly is just needless rhetoric, actually it almost sounds like you relish the prospect of a scrap between Russia and the West. If things warranted the west stepping in the best thing Russia could do would be to capitulate. Thats better than having their asses handed to them anyway.

Edited August 29, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[myata]

This is the kind of democratic action we support, defend and cover up for:

BBC: eyewitnesses of the conflict

After Kosovo, "operations" in Afghanistan and Iraq, nobody should be surprised. Democracy appears to be a bloody business.

[bush_cheney2004]

After Kosovo, "operations" in Afghanistan and Iraq, nobody should be surprised. Democracy appears to be a bloody business.

Indeed....just ask the British. How do you like us now?

There is no direct correlation between "democracy" and "peace".

Edited August 29, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Kaisa]

Did you miss me?

You can read this excellent article until I come back (probably tomorrow) to post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../georgia.russia

[AngusThermopyle]

That is an excellent article.

Hey Myata! Read this article. It will be interesting to see what spin can be put on it to make it into a Russia good Georgia bad article.

[Argus]

This is the kind of democratic action we support, defend and cover up for:

BBC: eyewitnesses of the conflict

After Kosovo, "operations" in Afghanistan and Iraq, nobody should be surprised. Democracy appears to be a bloody business.

If a Russian told you the the moon was made of Green cheese you'd get out your fork and try to jump, wouldn't you? Maybe you are a Russian, for all I know. Your gullibility would be astounding in a westerner.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Status update:

Georgia has severed all diplomatic ties with Russia.

Earlier Georgian parliament ruled to consider all Russian troops on the territory of Georgia "proper", South Ossetia and Abkhazia "occupational".

[PoliticalCitizen]

Did you miss me?

You can read this excellent article until I come back (probably tomorrow) to post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20.../georgia.russia

Of course...

Let's use some commentaries from FOX News as well - those shoud also be objective and unbiased.

Oh yes - ask Miliband if the Iraqis voted for UK and Georgian soldiers on their land...

[PoliticalCitizen]

If a Russian told you the the moon was made of Green cheese you'd get out your fork and try to jump, wouldn't you? Maybe you are a Russian, for all I know. Your gullibility would be astounding in a westerner.

If you choose to see only black noone can make you believe it is white or there are colors...

[PoliticalCitizen]

I'll bet you'll have to check it again, now that Putin is showing his true colours and getting Russia back on the road to becoming the USSR again. So which small country will he invade next? What blatantly overt ruse will he use this time, more passports of convenience?

Well, you know what happened to the country of Yugoslavia...

Sure, Russia is good at f*cking up small countries with small militaries. The West standing by helplessly is just needless rhetoric, actually it almost sounds like you relish the prospect of a scrap between Russia and the West. If things warranted the west stepping in the best thing Russia could do would be to capitulate. Thats better than having their asses handed to them anyway.

Same can be said about NATO. Well, actually NATO does much, much worse... It is an alliance that picked on little countries and ripped them appart... f*cked them up real good... hanged them out to dry... while Russia was watching madly and helplessly.

It's payback time.

[myata]

Hey Myata! Read this article. It will be interesting to see what spin can be put on it to make it into a Russia good Georgia bad article.

I did. Unlike the first hand eyewitness accounts collected by a reputable news provider, which were posted here for everybody's consideration, it's a comment on another comment. Containing a number of factual errors, too many to point out; and of course I never said that you're ascribing to me.

But.... at some point, one has to wash their hands. You'll see what you want to see, and no amount of impartial information, facts, etc will change that. Amen.

[AngusThermopyle]

I did. Unlike the first hand eyewitness accounts collected by a reputable news provider, which were posted here for everybody's consideration, it's a comment on another comment.

Sure it is, nonetheless I believe it to be far more credible than for instance someone posting someone else's comment from some other Forum.

After all, what kind of person would believe an opinion in a forum post to be a credible source?

[PoliticalCitizen]

Sure it is, nonetheless I believe it to be far more credible than for instance someone posting someone else's comment from some other Forum.

After all, what kind of person would believe an opinion in a forum post to be a credible source?

Are you talking about that Croatian crap post?

[myata]

Sure it is, nonetheless I believe it to be far more credible than for instance someone posting someone else's comment from some other Forum.

Why is it "far more credible"? Because you happen to think so? Try to argument your statements - for a change.

After all, what kind of person would believe an opinion in a forum post to be a credible source?

What, "source"? Or, "source" of what? If one can't grasp the difference between a reference to a source of information, and a quote as an expression of an opinion to cite, - sorry, I won't be able to help. Finishing junior high might.

[AngusThermopyle]

Finishing junior high might.

Well you missed the boat on that one, pretty standard from what I've seen so far.

So you don't like it when the criticism you level against others turns around and bites you in the ass. That goes hand in hand with your inability to admit you're wrong. The really interesting aspect to all this is the fact that I cannot recall one single time when I've seen you admit to being wrong, not one. That in itself speaks volumes as to your character, it also happens to be a very serious weakness. You should try to address that.

[myata]

So you don't like it when the criticism you level against others turns around and bites you in the ass. That goes hand in hand with your inability to admit you're wrong. The really interesting aspect to all this is the fact that I cannot recall one single time when I've seen you admit to being wrong, not one. That in itself speaks volumes as to your character, it also happens to be a very serious weakness. You should try to address that.

Don't worry, I've heard it all. But, think for a moment, why do you want to share your wisdom with everybody? Do you honestly believe that you're adding anything new - to whatever you've already said, and long, long time back?

[AngusThermopyle]

Don't worry, I've heard it all. But, think for a moment, why do you want to share your wisdom with everybody? Do you honestly believe that you're adding anything new - to whatever you've already said, and long, long time back?

Yeah yeah whatever. The above statement could fit you as easily as anyone else, so go ahead and answer it, after all you're never wrong.

Speaking of which. Why is it that you do not possess the ability to admit when you're wrong. Or are you now going to seriously state that you are never wrong? Comming from you that wouldn't surprise me one little bit.

[myata]

I'd like to summarize my take on this complex situation, including parts played by parties so far, and based on the information I've been able to find. Most sources have been already referenced in this thread, only new ones will be linked. Factual and/or argumented corrections and/or comments are welcome.

#1 The conflict is a typical post empire collaps aftershock. Historical roots go well beyond recent times.

#2 Escalation of the conlift to a large scale military action by Georgia was not justifiable. Preferable approach to resolving ethnic conflicts would be negotiation based on free democratic expression of will by people (where people represent a "distinct" society), aka Canada model; if that were inacceptable to one of the parties at the time, the situation should have remained "frozen" until such time as when all parties are prepared to negotiate a peaceful resolution. This position is confirmed by NATO's role in the Kosovo conflict (when Serbia's strong response to a real terrorist insurgency has been rejected and suppressed by force).

#3 Russia's initial response to the escalation of the conflict has been peaceful and legitimate (request for UN resolution demanding end of attacks and withdrawal of Georgia's troops from the peacekeeping zone).

#4 This request has not met with understanding from some Western partners, effectively blocking international security framework from playing any role in deescalation of the conflict. This was the first window of opportunity for the West to demonstrate a genuine committment to the same principles of peace it likes everybody else to follow.

#4 In the absence of international response, Russia's military intervention in the peacekeeping zone was justified. If civilians of any Western country fell under a direct military attack, appropriate actions to protect population and restore its security would be fully justified and executed. Precedents: UK in Folkland/Malvinas, France in Chad.

#5 Specifically, Russian military actions to remove Georgia's forces from the peacekeeping zone were justified. In the situation of intense fighting that continued for two days (Aug 8th to 10th), removing the offending forces may have been the only effective way to minimize civilian casualties in the conflict and restore minimum security. Minimal civilian casualties (outside of the initial offense by Georgia on the night of Aug. 7th) appear to confirm validity of that strategy.

#6 The period of heavy fighting in the peacekeeping zone was the second window of opportunity for the West to take a principled strong position on the conflict and demand withdrawal of all forces from the zone of peacekeeping and restoration of the status quo.

#7 After provisional ceasefire has been reached: Russia's actions to disarm, dismantle and remove offensive military capabilities of Georgia in the areas of immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict were justified by the need to guarantee minimum security for the population in the zone of conflict.

#8 Russia's actions outside of the immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict are highly questionnable; the only legitimate intervention would have been to remove a real and present threat of attack against any of the peacekeeping zones, by disarming, dismantling, and removing offensive capability of the offending forces. Specifically, advances into Georgia proper, outside of immediate vicinity to the area of conflict, or peacekeeping zones, were not justifiable.

And now, some general observations:

- The West once againg has shown its inherent inablity to abide by its own proclaimed norms and standards; it was not able to play strong impartial role in deescalating the conflict, and on the contrary, took a strong stance on one side of the conflict.

- As a result, credibility of the West as an international agent of peace in general, and in this conflict in particular, has been diminished (with Canada being no exception either). Again, the West has shown pack behaviour and any of its future claims to objectivity, peace and justice would be met with increasing skepticism.

- Russia has received a strong momentum to seek and strengthen the allegiances with the authoritarian, less democratic regimes of Asia. Democratic opposition in Russia is probably one of the biggest losers of the incident.

- International cooperation, and specifically, security framework has received a strong setback. UNSC will see more of the old style block tradeoff politics, and its efficiency will be diminished even further (if that is still possible).

- The situation provides opportunities for other international players, untaineted by unilateral actions, to step forward and start playing the role of trusted mediator of peace and security, which neither Western block, nor emerging China-Asia-Russia organisation will be able to play for quite some time.

[edited for style - m.]

Edited August 30, 2008 by myata

[Oleg Bach]

Awh - any nation (family) that generated Joe Stalin needs a bit of belated punishment.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Once again, the West exhibited pack style of behaviour and any of its future claims to objectivity, peace and justice would be met with increasing skepticism.

Circular reference...why do you think it is called "the West".

-2

[Oleg Bach]

Circular reference...why do you think it is called "the West".

-2

The west are pale eyed wolf men called anglos - cruel and stiff upper lipped ready to subjugate and get rich doing it...that's the west - now the east are parroting.