Open warfare in South Ossetia

[PoliticalCitizen]

And of course you were completely objective - talking about the right of self-determination for Ossetiand and Abkhazs and forgetting to mention that these regions were historically georgian where majority of population was georgian until Russia killed and forced most of them to leave. So, if I come to your house with the weapon and make you leave I have right to call it my house, right? Wrong! It will not be my house either legally or morally.

Consider your nation lucky as the Father of Nations was from Gori and he really liked his motherland so he assigned the 2 autonomous republics to Georgia. But it could have been the other way around... How many Germans live in the Kaliningrad (Königsberg) region?

I dont think anybody knows for 100% why it is called Georgia. I personally dont want to change it. Georgia is not the only country which is called differently in different languages. Armenia, for example, is Somkheti in Georgian and Hayastan in Armenian.

Here's some versions from Wikipedia:

"The origin of the name Georgia is still disputed and has been explained in the following ways:

- Linking it semantically to Greek and Latin roots (Greek: γεωργία, transliterated geōrgía, "agriculture", γεωργός, geōrgós, "tiller of the land", and γεωργικός, geōrgikós, Latin: georgicus, "agricultural").[12]

- The country took its name from that of Saint George, itself a derivative of the aforementioned Greek root. Or, at the very least, the popularity of the cult of Saint George in Georgia influenced the spread of the term.

- Under various Persian empires (536 BC-AD 638), Georgians were called Gurjhān (Gurzhan/Gurjan), or "Gurj/Gurzh people." The early Islamic/Arabic sources spelled the name Kurz/Gurz and the country Gurjistan (see Baladhuri, Tabari, Jayhani, Istakhri, Ibn Hawqal, etc.). The contemporary Russian name for the country, "Gruziya," is similar. This also could evolve or at least contribute to the later name of Georgia.[13]"

- There also was a Georgian king George (Grigori)...

[Kaisa]

Consider your nation lucky as the Father of Nations was from Gori and he really liked his motherland so he assigned the 2 autonomous republics to Georgia. But it could have been the other way around... How many Germans live in the Kaliningrad (Königsberg) region?

Are you trying to say that Abkhazia and Samachablo became part of Georgia in 20th century? Please explain.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Are you trying to say that Abkhazia and Samachablo became part of Georgia in 20th century? Please explain.

Look in the Putin interview thread - he gives us a history lesson

If you want to hear about a former USSR country with a sad story - my motherland was chopped into many pieces.

Stalin gave the territory that was linking us to the Black Sea to Ukraine. Same was done with a territory North of today's Moldova.

As if that wouldn't be enought, Transdniestria (with the capital of Tiraspol) separated and we fought a brief war (where Moldova had no chance of course, as the Soviet / Russian 14th Army was permanently stationed in Pridnestrovie (Transnistria)).

Moreover in the South of Moldova there's Gagauzia - an Authonomous Territory with the capital of Komrat.

That is after the biggest part of Moldova was left within Romania (where it is a purely agrarian province).

So trust me - I know how bad it feels...

But such is the fate of small countries.

At least we don't hate... and don't fight (anymore, anyway).

There will be a summit between Moldovan President Voronin, Transdniestrian "President" Smirnov and Medvedev soon.

Edited September 6, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[AngusThermopyle]

Look in the Putin interview thread - he gives us a history lesson

And I'm sure that coming from a highly reputable source like him its the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You'll have to do better than citeing Putin, its not like he has no stake at all in all of this.

[myata]

Now, this is an interesting development: EU urges independent probe into Ossetia.

Germany, Italy and several other European states called on Friday for an inquiry into who was to blame for last month's South Ossetia conflict, saying the outcome could shape ties with Russia and Georgia.

Could it be, that after already having made blank and wholesale condemnations, somebody may still be interested to actually find out the truth?

Note the ever twisting position of the UK (45 min ballistic missile threat):

...Foreign Secretary David Miliband said Britain had always called for verification of allegations of human rights abuses.

Apparently, the questions about who initiated escalation of the conflict and with what effect, are of less (no?) importance to the peacemongering Mr Milliband.

On which maybe this could shed some light:

The West has pledged support for the territorial integrity of former Soviet Georgia, but European and some U.S. officials have expressed dismay over President Mikheil Saakashvili's attempt to solve the long-frozen conflict with military force.

Georgia's leaders say they sent their forces into South Ossetia ... in response to what they called repeated armed provocations by Russia and its separatist allies.

At least there seems to be little doubt about who sent their forces and where. So, definitely a promising development. Lives open a possibility that somewhere in the far and obscure future we may yet come to a point where our decisions will be based on established and confirmed facts, rather than on block (pack) psychologies. At least, cne can always hope.

[Kaisa]

Look in the Putin interview thread - he gives us a history lesson

If you want to hear about a former USSR country with a sad story - my motherland was chopped into many pieces.

Stalin gave the territory that was linking us to the Black Sea to Ukraine. Same was done with a territory North of today's Moldova.

As if that wouldn't be enought, Transdniestria (with the capital of Tiraspol) separated and we fought a brief war (where Moldova had no chance of course, as the Soviet / Russian 14th Army was permanently stationed in Pridnestrovie (Transnistria)).

Moreover in the South of Moldova there's Gagauzia - an Authonomous Territory with the capital of Komrat.

That is after the biggest part of Moldova was left within Romania (where it is a purely agrarian province).

So trust me - I know how bad it feels...

But such is the fate of small countries.

At least we don't hate... and don't fight (anymore, anyway).

There will be a summit between Moldovan President Voronin, Transdniestrian "President" Smirnov and Medvedev soon.

Let me try to follow your logic:

1. You said that the West was not objective because it was calling Russia occupant and aggressor.

2. I asked if YOU were objective while advocating the right of "self-determination" for Ossetians on a historically Georgian territory which had had majority of Georgian population before ethnical cleansing was conducted by Russians and Ossetians.

3. Your answer was a story about how Moldova was torn up and your conclusion that this is a fate of small countries.

First of all this is wrong. There are many countries, much poorer than Georgia that survive independently and dont lose territories. Mind you, they dont border Russia.

Second: How does your story prove that Georgia is wrong and Russia is right i.e. the West is feeding BS, etc? In fact it shows that Russia always has similar methods and they are dirty and ugly.

[Kaisa]

Now, this is an interesting development: [url="http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL570025320080905?

I hope they are really after the truth which is not so difficult to see, honestly.

[myata]

Certainly shouldn't be, from this (from the abovementioned source):

... European and some U.S. officials have expressed dismay over President Mikheil Saakashvili's attempt to solve the long-frozen conflict with military force.

Edited September 7, 2008 by myata

[PoliticalCitizen]

Let me try to follow your logic:

1. You said that the West was not objective because it was calling Russia occupant and aggressor.

2. I asked if YOU were objective while advocating the right of "self-determination" for Ossetians on a historically Georgian territory which had had majority of Georgian population before ethnical cleansing was conducted by Russians and Ossetians.

3. Your answer was a story about how Moldova was torn up and your conclusion that this is a fate of small countries.

First of all this is wrong. There are many countries, much poorer than Georgia that survive independently and dont lose territories. Mind you, they dont border Russia.

Second: How does your story prove that Georgia is wrong and Russia is right i.e. the West is feeding BS, etc? In fact it shows that Russia always has similar methods and they are dirty and ugly.

I'm sorry if the main point of my post eluded you.

Georgia had a chance to learn how to tolerate authonomies within its territory without resorting to violence. They blew it.

Other small countries, such as Moldova, are more tolerant and have avoided war.

Whatever happened to Georgia is a result of Georgian government's actions.

The best thing that can happen to Georgia now is that a peace-loving government replaces the blood-crazed regime that's running the country now.

[jbg]

Georgia had a chance to learn how to tolerate authonomies within its territory without resorting to violence. They blew it.

Other small countries, such as Moldova, are more tolerant and have avoided war.

Whatever happened to Georgia is a result of Georgian government's actions.

Why don't we hear a drumbeat of peace-lovers demanding that Russia take its case to the UN rather than invade? Where are the people hysterically attacking the US for invading Iraq?

[Kaisa]

I'm sorry if the main point of my post eluded you.

Georgia had a chance to learn how to tolerate authonomies within its territory without resorting to violence. They blew it.

Other small countries, such as Moldova, are more tolerant and have avoided war.

Whatever happened to Georgia is a result of Georgian government's actions.

The best thing that can happen to Georgia now is that a peace-loving government replaces the blood-crazed regime that's running the country now.

I am sorry but your point is complete BS. If you dont stand up to a bully you will probably end up with fewer broken bones but you would not suggest to your son to quietly give his pocket money to a big guy, would you?

Abkhazia and Samachablo together are almost 20% of Georgian territory, more than 400,000 people or aprroximately 10% of Georgian population was displaced because of these conflicts - they lost absolutely everything. My best friend is originally from Ochamchire, she was so happy that she managed to take her photo album with her, she lost her house and everything else in it. Many children grew up in hotel rooms where sometimes 10-15 people lived together. Can you imagine what impact these numbers can have on a country's well being in every possible aspect? It would not have been easy even for a much stronger and richer country. Georgia offered Ossetians and Abkhazians very broad authonomy, we wanted dialogue. They, of course, did not accept anything. Also, dont forget about constant provocations, bombing, shelling, killing and destroying. We tolerated this for 17 years!!!

I know you dream of a georgian president that will be your puppet, no need to tell me over and over again.

You are avoiding my question about "self-determination" but that's ok, everyone knows the answer anyways.

You know, I listen to "Echo Moskvi" all the time. The discussions are very interesting, I learn so much. They dont care about what is going to happen with Georgia or Georgians. It is incredible to listen to people from country that started a war "to protect lives", "to avoid humanitarian catastrophe", etc, and see only concern about Russia's future and interests. They care about Abkhazians and Ossetians as much as they care about Georgians by the way, i.e. they dont give a **** if we all died today. I dont mind though. At least they are not pretending. Your posts revive my childhood memories - a soviet mentality, soviet propaganda. Unfortunately to all of us it is coming back to Russia.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Kaisa

[myata]

Why don't we hear a drumbeat of peace-lovers demanding that Russia take its case to the UN rather than invade? Where are the people hysterically attacking the US for invading Iraq?

Yeah I know, after Iraq attacked US peacekeepers and civilians (with WMD), US coalition had no choice but to resist, even despite UN's reluctance to authorise it! Bad Russians tried that too - that is, to get Security Council resolution for Georgia to pull back and denounce military resolution of conflict. It just didn't happen. Why didn't it happen? Did anybody actually support military resolution of etnic conflicts (by stalling resolution)? Good question...

Anyways, you seem to have answered your own question - they had no choice but to..., you know?

Edited September 8, 2008 by myata

[PoliticalCitizen]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL272497420080908

Russia ready for Georgia buffer pullout: Medvedev

re-copied article deleted by moderator

Edited September 11, 2008 by Charles Anthony
re-copied article deleted

[PoliticalCitizen]

I am sorry but your point is complete BS. If you dont stand up to a bully you will probably end up with fewer broken bones but you would not suggest to your son to quietly give his pocket money to a big guy, would you?

Your government had to be smarter than trying to take on a big local bully by force hoping to get help from a superbully across the ocean... That's exactly how you get the crap beat out of you...

Abkhazia and Samachablo together are almost 20% of Georgian territory, more than 400,000 people or aprroximately 10% of Georgian population was displaced because of these conflicts - they lost absolutely everything. My best friend is originally from Ochamchire, she was so happy that she managed to take her photo album with her, she lost her house and everything else in it. Many children grew up in hotel rooms where sometimes 10-15 people lived together. Can you imagine what impact these numbers can have on a country's well being in every possible aspect? It would not have been easy even for a much stronger and richer country. Georgia offered Ossetians and Abkhazians very broad authonomy, we wanted dialogue. They, of course, did not accept anything. Also, dont forget about constant provocations, bombing, shelling, killing and destroying. We tolerated this for 17 years!!!

You were training and building a stronger army for 17 years, while continuing military provocations in the 2 authonomous regions. That's a very strange interpretation of "Tolerance"...

I know you dream of a georgian president that will be your puppet, no need to tell me over and over again.

You are avoiding my question about "self-determination" but that's ok, everyone knows the answer anyways.

You know, I listen to "Echo Moskvi" all the time. The discussions are very interesting, I learn so much. They dont care about what is going to happen with Georgia or Georgians. It is incredible to listen to people from country that started a war "to protect lives", "to avoid humanitarian catastrophe", etc, and see only concern about Russia's future and interests. They care about Abkhazians and Ossetians as much as they care about Georgians by the way, i.e. they dont give a **** if we all died today. I dont mind though. At least they are not pretending. Your posts revive my childhood memories - a soviet mentality, soviet propaganda. Unfortunately to all of us it is coming back to Russia.

Well, USA has proven that not only they wouldn't give a flying f*ck about all South Ossetians being exterminated but the actually instructed all of their allies to do the same while your "Democratically Elected Government" butchered peacekeepers and civilians...

As for USSR - do you remember this kind of sh*t ever going on during the good old days? Chechen fighting Russians? Georgians fighting Ossetians and Abkhazians? Armenians fighting Azeris? Moldovans fighting other Moldovans? All this mess was made possible not without interference from USA...

[Kaisa]

You were training and building a stronger army for 17 years, while continuing military provocations in the 2 authonomous regions. That's a very strange interpretation of "Tolerance"...

You are really something, you know?

I even started enjoying this.

You have already mentioned this pearl - it is a crime to build an army, I got it from the first time

Now, let's analyze your allegation about the provocations. Georgia had nothing to gain from a military provocation which if succesful meant war with Russia. If Georgia wanted to start a war with Russia it could always start it by entering "South Ossetia" which was (and is) a Georgian territory. Russia however could not have entered Georgia without a formal excuse as it was not a Russian territory. So tell me, why would Georgia need provocations for 17 years?

[jbg]

Abkhazia and Samachablo together are almost 20% of Georgian territory, more than 400,000 people or aprroximately 10% of Georgian population was displaced because of these conflicts - they lost absolutely everything. My best friend is originally from Ochamchire, she was so happy that she managed to take her photo album with her, she lost her house and everything else in it. Many children grew up in hotel rooms where sometimes 10-15 people lived together. Can you imagine what impact these numbers can have on a country's well being in every possible aspect? It would not have been easy even for a much stronger and richer country. Georgia offered Ossetians and Abkhazians very broad authonomy, we wanted dialogue. They, of course, did not accept anything. Also, dont forget about constant provocations, bombing, shelling, killing and destroying. We tolerated this for 17 years!!!

No wonder that area is a sh**hole, as is much of the world. These areas always have their palms out for aid, and don't produce anything since they keep fighting senseless, ancestral values.

PC, is that how you wound up in Canada?

[jbg]

Anyways, you seem to have answered your own question - they had no choice but to..., you know?

I don't claim to be consistent; the leftards do.

[Kaisa]

No wonder that area is a sh**hole, as is much of the world. These areas always have their palms out for aid, and don't produce anything since they keep fighting senseless, ancestral values.

PC, is that how you wound up in Canada?

Well, Abkhazia was one of the most popular sea resorts during the soviet time, it is really beautuful. or was

No, it is not how I came to Canada.

I left a very succesful carier and happy life in Georgia, immigrated as a skilled worker and built everything from the scratch here (as many like me).

[PoliticalCitizen]

You are really something, you know?

I even started enjoying this.

You have already mentioned this pearl - it is a crime to build an army, I got it from the first time

Kaisa, I'm going to give you a link to an OFFICIAL RUSSIAN NEWS SOURCE (oh, no! ).

If you are genuine in your feelings and at least a bit open-minded check out the movie describing the "trophies" captured by Russian troops in Georgia and listen to the descriptions:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=149225

It is really FAR, FAR more than any little country THAT DOESN'T PLAN TO ATTACK ITS NEIGHBORS would ever need. You can ignore most comments as "Russian propaganda" BS, but just look at the hardware and plans.

US spy satellites provided Georgian military with maps pinpointing the exact location of the peacekeepers - I'm sure that was to send them flowers or chocolates as a reward for their effort.

Now, let's analyze your allegation about the provocations. Georgia had nothing to gain from a military provocation which if succesful meant war with Russia. If Georgia wanted to start a war with Russia it could always start it by entering "South Ossetia" which was (and is) a Georgian territory. Russia however could not have entered Georgia without a formal excuse as it was not a Russian territory. So tell me, why would Georgia need provocations for 17 years?

That's exactly what Georgia did - entered South Ossetia after bombing Tshinval via air, artillery and GRAD.

No, they were not trying to FIGHT RUSSIA. Georgian government was given the euphoric feeling by the US that they can do whatever they want to and get support from NATO - they hoped to execute a "blitzkrieg" and re-capture the lost provinces with no regard to human life, then declare the war won and over BEFORE the slow Russian army with an outdated command system would have gotten a chance to respond.

They either grossly underestimated the level of preparedness of Russian forces specifically for this operation OR were purposely misled by the American friends, who are always happy to create chaos on Russia's turf to serve their "National" interests.

I will say this again - you may consider Russia as an enemy of Georgia (at this point they're clearly not friends); but to USA Georgia is just a tool. Your motherland is on is way to become America's military instrument in Caucasus.

[PoliticalCitizen]

No wonder that area is a sh**hole, as is much of the world. These areas always have their palms out for aid, and don't produce anything since they keep fighting senseless, ancestral values.

PC, is that how you wound up in Canada?

You haven't travelled much, have you? And why would you? The rest of the world is a sh*thole anyway, right?

LOL

Anohter fine example of signature American pride of being ignorant.

Anyway, I got to Canada as a result of the Moldovan conflict, which was about language, not ancestral values.

Speaking of sh*tholes - I had the misfortune of visiting Niagara Falls, USA not so long ago and - oh, boy...

Edited September 9, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[jbg]

Well, Abkhazia was one of the most popular sea resorts during the soviet time, it is really beautuful. or was

I also distinctly remember an article, in one of the last two Sunday (New York )Times Magazine sections of 1971 featuring Akbazia and the fact that at the time they had some of the worlds oldest people.

a

No, it is not how I came to Canada.

I left a very succesful carier and happy life in Georgia, immigrated as a skilled worker and built everything from the scratch here (as many like me).

That question was directed at Political Citizen. He answered it. My response below.

You haven't travelled much, have you? And why would you? The rest of the world is a sh*thole anyway, right?

LOL

Anohter fine example of signature American pride of being ignorant.

************

Speaking of sh*tholes - I had the misfortune of visiting Niagara Falls, USA not so long ago and - oh, boy...

No question, Niagara Falls, New York (like many upstate NY cities) is a sh**hole. This followed the replacement of the Erie Canal by the Saint Lawrence Seaway as the major corridor of water transportation in the area. The Canadian side has always been better, even before the decline of upstate New York. As far as the rest of your remark, yes, I, like most Americans, are very proud of my country. We have accomplished a lot here. We have banished most inter-ethnic conflicts, and harnessed people's energies to work together. We do not have a Quebec. We do not have a Russia-Georgia-Ossetia-Ahkazia. We do not have a Russia-Chechnya.

Anyway, I got to Canada as a result of the Moldovan conflict, which was about language, not ancestral values.

Explain the difference.

[myata]

I don't claim to be consistent; the leftards do.

The flip side of which is of course, relativity. Moral, legal, etc. I do something because I can; they do something else because they can; everybody can do what they want because (and if) they can.

[moderateamericain]

You haven't travelled much, have you? And why would you? The rest of the world is a sh*thole anyway, right?

LOL

Anohter fine example of signature American pride of being ignorant.

Anyway, I got to Canada as a result of the Moldovan conflict, which was about language, not ancestral values.

Speaking of sh*tholes - I had the misfortune of visiting Niagara Falls, USA not so long ago and - oh, boy...

I have done a bit of travelling. And yes, most of the rest of the world is a shit hole by civilized Standards (US, Europe, Russia, Japan as my basis)

[GostHacked]

I, like most Americans, are very proud of my country. We have accomplished a lot here. We have banished most inter-ethnic conflicts, and harnessed people's energies to work together. We do not have a Quebec. We do not have a Russia-Georgia-Ossetia-Ahkazia. We do not have a Russia-Chechnya.

Explain the difference.

If you think that most inter-ethnic conflicts have been banished, then why is gang warefare (which for the most part is very ethnic) such a problem in most major cities in North American. Gang wars are very ethnic and cause much trouble in Toronto, and I also see some of it here in Ottawa. Los Angeles is a major center for ethnic gangs.

Having a 'Quebec' is not necessary to have ethnic conflicts.

[Kaisa]

Kaisa, I'm going to give you a link to an OFFICIAL RUSSIAN NEWS SOURCE (oh, no! ).

If you are genuine in your feelings and at least a bit open-minded check out the movie describing the "trophies" captured by Russian troops in Georgia and listen to the descriptions:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=149225

It is really FAR, FAR more than any little country THAT DOESN'T PLAN TO ATTACK ITS NEIGHBORS would ever need. You can ignore most comments as "Russian propaganda" BS, but just look at the hardware and plans.

US spy satellites provided Georgian military with maps pinpointing the exact location of the peacekeepers - I'm sure that was to send them flowers or chocolates as a reward for their effort.

I am not arguing the facts, but we have different interpretation.

I think that no Russian neighbour is 100% safe and it is wise to build an army when you are in a situation Georgia was.

I hope that we will rebuild an even stronger army and learn from our mistakes.

That's exactly what Georgia did - entered South Ossetia after bombing Tshinval via air, artillery and GRAD.

Wait, I said we tolerated a very difficult situation for 17 years, you said we havent been tolerating since we were provoking (militarily) constantly. I hope you realize that you cannot prove your false point with the argument above because the time horizon is different.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Kaisa