Open warfare in South Ossetia

[M.Dancer]

Well if you're right then apparently they WISHED not to tell the truth... in which case they're worse than state-controlled media...

I seriuosly doubt you are in a position to know what thenTRVTH is...and if you get your TRVTH from the notoriously UNTRVTHFVL russian press....'nuff said.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I seriuosly doubt you are in a position to know what thenTRVTH is...and if you get your TRVTH from the notoriously UNTRVTHFVL russian press....'nuff said.

You don't even have to look at the Russian press to see how you were lied to by western press... just compare what they were saying in the beginning and what they are saying now... except, of course, US administration - they keep lying...

[myata]

As for them having a respectable sized force who can blame them? Just look at who their neighbour is. Yep, Russia has always been a first class neighbour, no need for any military with those dudes living next door,

Size itself has nothing to do with using the army against the civilians. In a peacekeeping zone.

after all their track record as the worlds leading humanitarians speaks for itself.

I'm getting tired of this old boring regurgitated cud. What about Germany's track record? Japan's? Israel's? And yeah, that one, too...

Now, having observed the fact that you are incapable of admitting you are wrong I expect you to continue with your ridiculous premise that the Georgians have a "massive" armed forces.

Indeed, having nothing to say against the facts, the only honourable out is to keep a straight face and pretend nobody noticed.

Edited August 23, 2008 by myata

[bush_cheney2004]

You don't even have to look at the Russian press to see how you were lied to by western press... just compare what they were saying in the beginning and what they are saying now... except, of course, US administration - they keep lying...

Could be, but anything from Russia in the way of "truth" is devalued.....Russia's truth is worth less than Western lies.

[AngusThermopyle]

Indeed, having nothing to say against the facts

What facts? The fact that the numbers you posted all indicate a small armed forces for a small country, hardly "massive", as you continue to claim. Or are you under the impression that Canada has a large armed forces so Georgias must be huge?

Now lets go back to your other statement, you know, the ludicrous one about "massive missile launchers", that one. How are they any more "massive" than any number of comparable systems owned by any number of countries around the world? Please do explain these mysteriously "massive" launchers to me, are they way more massive than the hundreds that the Russians have? Did the Georgians get the jumbo version?

Come on now, you made all these dramatic claims about "massive" this and "massive" that so the least you can do is show this massiveness. Maybe you were refering to the Deorgian navy as massive, after all they do have what...three gunboats I think. Wait a minute! Wasn't one of them sunk? Well two gunboats are still a pretty massive navy I guess.

Maybe you meant their Airforce. I must admit, it is a huge Airforce, roughly equivalent to their navy.

Now I think about it you're right! The magnitude and power of the Georgian Armed Forces is truly "massive".

Contemplating it leaves me with a feeling of awe that can only be described as "massive".

[myata]

Contemplating it leaves me with a feeling of awe that can only be described as "massive".

Because it's the only point you're making, I'm ready to concede it to you. The correct term is multiple rocket launcher (MRL).

We could argue for a while whether concentration of ground forces, heavy artillery, tanks, aircraft and MRLs where the opposition is armed only with light arms, can be interpreted as "massive" build up.

I'm not in the mood though, as you've accepted (by never challenging) the main points, that military build up on this scale, whether "massive" or not, could not have happened in a matter of few hours, that the attacks were launched from Georgia's side and maybe even that NATO's position in this incident is a complete and obvious pile of hypocrisy and bs.

[AngusThermopyle]

Because it's the only point you're making,

Of course. The only thing I objected to was your free use of the word massive. I wont deny that they prepared themselves and planned to secure this province that was breaking away with outside influence and assistance. That would be the only prudent thing to do in that situation and I'd wager that a lot more countries would do the same thing in that kind of scenario.

If you want to know I actually don't think NATO should be involved at all. It should be a UN problem, however the UN has repeatedly shown itself to be useless and in most cases a hinderance so some official body has to replace them and act.

On the other hand if Georgia wants to join NATO to help secure their safety why should they be denied?

All I can say with certainty is that we live in interesting times. Very interesting.

[myata]

I wont deny that they prepared themselves and planned to secure this province that was breaking away with outside influence and assistance.

If you read a bit more on the background of the conflict, you'd find out (from a number of independent sources) that there's been a history of conflicts between Ossetia and Georgia, that it was never a province of Georgia (in modern times) and that Georgia had some 15 years to promote peaceful reintegration.

That would be the only prudent thing to do in that situation and I'd wager that a lot more countries would do the same thing in that kind of scenario.

Sure, like e.g Serbia, in Kosovo?

On the other hand if Georgia wants to join NATO to help secure their safety why should they be denied

Does safety of Georgia go over their obligation to observe the agreements they themselves have made? The principles we like to trumpet around (peace, democratic right to self determination)? Our own safety? Let's find out. Interesting times, indeed.

My take is that NATO's claims to principles or impartiality in the international affairs now came out as complete hypocrisy (not that after Iraq, many were still in doubt). NATO showed itself as a pack, that will say and do whatever's in the pack's interests, regardless of standards or principles. Everybody better get busy building (or rebuilding) packs of their own. We may be in for a rerun (hopefully, in a softer mode) of the not so long and hardly forgotten past.

[Argus]

Argus,

BBC's numbers are about as right as their reports on who attacked whom in the beginning of the conflict.

A "sense of responsibility", hey?

Well, that's exactly what prompted Russia to create a buffer zone and create additional peacekeeping checkpoints.

Apparently their "sense of responsibility" is going to lead them to continue to occupy Georgia's main port as well, though they have yet to figure out how to explain this as being acceptable to the peace agreement they signed. Then again, "keeping your word" is not something Russian leaders appear capable of understanding.

"There's no free press in Russia"?

I have personally witnessed how most major western news agencies: CNN, BBC, CBC, FOXnews etc. LIED about what happened and what is happening during almost a whole week from the beginning of the conflict. Who doesn't have "Free" press again?

Oh you have personally witnessed this, eh? So you're saying that you were in Georgia, as, like, an observer, and traveled all through it during the fighting with South Ossetia and Georgia and then Russia and Georgia, and so you can verify which side is telling the truth?

No. You simply believe, without thought, without doubt, without hesitation, everything the Russians say. Because, forgive me, you clearly come from an unsophisticated backwater culture affiliated with Russia, and, like native Russians, are so gullible you never question what your leaders tell you. Nor, in fact, do you care. As far as you're concerned it's Russia against - whoever, and you will always choose Russia, and believe in Russia, and support Russia, no matter what it does. Russians could be lining up five year old kindergarten kids for execution and you'd be on here parotting the Russian government line that they were Muslim terrorists who were involved in genocide against South Ossetians.

[Argus]

Size itself has nothing to do with using the army against the civilians. In a peacekeeping zone.

I'm getting tired of this old boring regurgitated cud. What about Germany's track record? Japan's? Israel's? And yeah, that one, too...

Indeed, having nothing to say against the facts, the only honourable out is to keep a straight face and pretend nobody noticed.

Is that what you're doing? Then again, honour is clearly not high on the list of Russian apologists.

[Argus]

Does safety of Georgia go over their obligation to observe the agreements they themselves have made?

You Russians don't seem to care much about observing agreements. Why should the Georgians?

The principles we like to trumpet around (peace, democratic right to self determination)?

We like to trumpet? I don't see Russia trumpeting any of those.

My take is that NATO's claims to principles or impartiality in the international affairs now came out as complete hypocrisy (not that after Iraq, many were still in doubt).

What does Nato have to do with Iraq? What has Emperor Putin been saying, little Comrade?

NATO showed itself as a pack, that will say and do whatever's in the pack's interests, regardless of standards or principles. Everybody better get busy building (or rebuilding) packs of their own. We may be in for a rerun (hopefully, in a softer mode) of the not so long and hardly forgotten past.

Yes, they're much worse than noble Russia, that bastion of freedom and integrity and respect for human rights. Oh if only Russia would come and save us from these evil capitalist, running dog imperialistic warmongers, eh, comrade!?

[AngusThermopyle]

Does safety of Georgia go over their obligation to observe the agreements they themselves have made?

Actually it does, anything else would be out and out stupid.

It wouldn't work too well if they allowed themselves to be destroyed as a country because of a matter of principle.

An analogy would be if your home was invaded and the lives of your family were in peril. Would you just say go ahead and kill all of us, I wont do anything to stop you because I believe in non violence.

[myata]

Here's another fine example of our brazen, unapologetic hypocrisy:

BBC: Afghan civilians killed in US operation

The Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission said initial findings were that 78 civilians had been killed in the US raid, including women and children, but this could not be fully verified and a delegation was investigating.

More civilians perished in just one (out of countless) NATO operation than in the whole incident in Ossetia, on Georgia's side.

And? Where's the indignation of the free world? Free nations standing in one voice to condemn and demand? Free democratic media sending hundreds of reporters to find out the truth? Think of it, did you even hear about it?

This pretty much summarizes the whole affair (on the NATO, and specifically, Canada's, side) as a big, steaming, and stinking pile of hypocritical bs.

[PoliticalCitizen]

It appears that Russia's claim of complete withdrawal is an "incomplete" truth

[Rue]

The truth is that South Osetia belongs to Georgia. They maintain their right to regain full control over it. The truth is that Russia wanted to control that mountain region because of transit of Chechen oil in exchange of illegally produced Osetian's alcohol back to Russia (even Georgia was against Russia's presence in there).

Also, check my previous post http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=11598 (McCain + Osetia = Russia without Caucasus).

It's really well planned and executed campaign with long term interests of one main player - USA.

I am not sure what truth is in any given situation. The only thing I know that is true is that no human can say for sure with 100% certainty he or she knows what truth is, that is just not truthful. At best we come up with what we think is he "truth".

In this case I 100% agree with your above and other stated positions. I am sure Myata and other Russian apologists who tend to see the world in different terms, i.e., anything Western bad, anything anti-Western good,

think their version is the true one.

I think myself, anyone who can not see that Russia's interest in this area is based on oil pipelines is missing the point.

I also think Vladimir Putin is nothing more then a professional hitman whose KGB found themselves unemployed when the state went bankrupt and so have now gotten into bed with the Russian mob to get their paycheque.

Anyone who is quick to call the US and George Bush evil need to spend 5 minutes with Vlad. He is a classic sociopath. No emotion. Cold, calculated and someone with high intelligence and great cognitive skills. He is more then a match for the emerging Asian economies, the European Union and the U.S.

The fact I consider him to be a facist thug does not mean I do not appreciate his intelligence or cunning.

I personally think when this is over, Russia permanently leaves a military presence in Georgia and demands a shake down for not interfering with the pipelines that by-pass them through Georgia. That is all this is, a shakedown.

Or as my friend Tony would say " you wanna do bizness in dis naybuhgood, yooz gotta understand therez people yah have to showz some considurayshun too- its all about considurayshun and we wouldn't wanna have no misunderstanding about dat now would we someone'z lyabel tuh get hurt and dat would be such a shame."

[PoliticalCitizen]

I am not sure what truth is in any given situation. The only thing I know that is true is that no human can say for sure with 100% certainty he or she knows what truth is, that is just not truthful. At best we come up with what we think is he "truth".

In this case I 100% agree with your above and other stated positions. I am sure Myata and other Russian apologists who tend to see the world in different terms, i.e., anything Western bad, anything anti-Western good,

think their version is the true one.

I think myself, anyone who can not see that Russia's interest in this area is based on oil pipelines is missing the point.

I also think Vladimir Putin is nothing more then a professional hitman whose KGB found themselves unemployed when the state went bankrupt and so have now gotten into bed with the Russian mob to get their paycheque.

Anyone who is quick to call the US and George Bush evil need to spend 5 minutes with Vlad. He is a classic sociopath. No emotion. Cold, calculated and someone with high intelligence and great cognitive skills. He is more then a match for the emerging Asian economies, the European Union and the U.S.

The fact I consider him to be a facist thug does not mean I do not appreciate his intelligence or cunning.

I personally think when this is over, Russia permanently leaves a military presence in Georgia and demands a shake down for not interfering with the pipelines that by-pass them through Georgia. That is all this is, a shakedown.

Or as my friend Tony would say " you wanna do bizness in dis naybuhgood, yooz gotta understand therez people yah have to showz some considurayshun too- its all about considurayshun and we wouldn't wanna have no misunderstanding about dat now would we someone'z lyabel tuh get hurt and dat would be such a shame."

LOL

I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of high-crime neighborhoods. Caucasus - not so much...

Russia already owned the Georgian pipeline. Now because of the conflict Georgia may choose to expropriate it...

Is it so hard to admit that for once someone who doesn't follow US orders is actually doing something good?

Further genocide was prevented by the Russian invasion. Believe it or not - Georgia was preparing to attack Abkhazia as well - both from land and sea. That's not gonna happen now...

Putin is a very intelligent ruler who walks a very thin line between democracy and authocracy. So far he has succeeded.

Bush is a tool. I would have called him "fascist" but you need a certain degree of intelligence for that...

Oh, coming back to the "hood" politics - isn't that what US is in Iraq for - a shakedown?

Edited August 24, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[bush_cheney2004]

Putin is a very intelligent ruler who walks a very thin line between democracy and authocracy. So far he has succeeded.

Bush is a tool. I would have called him "fascist" but you need a certain degree of intelligence for that...

Nah...Putin is a tiny twit that has watched the Americans encircle his pretend democracy. The Americans cross oceans while the Russians can barely cross the street close to home.

Edited August 24, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[PoliticalCitizen]

The Americans cross oceans...

Hehehe... true... at least used to...

Welcome to the Black Sea, Americans

Hope you'll enjoy your stay in the Russian-patrolled Poti.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hehehe... true... at least used to...

Welcome to the Black Sea, Americans

Hope you'll enjoy your stay in the Russian-patrolled Poti.

Indeed, long gone are the days when a Soviet navy tasted true blue water. Messing with the Russians is now just sport.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Indeed, long gone are the days when a Soviet navy tasted true blue water. Messing with the Russians is now just sport.

Sure, sure...

And messing with Chinese - sport too?

http://www.nukestrat.com/china/subcave.htm

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure, sure...

And messing with Chinese - sport too?

Yes...mere sport. The Americans have decommissioned and scrapped for nuclear subs than China will ever build. They can't even take taiwan yet. Don't call us....we'll call you.

[Kaisa]

PoliticalCitizen

Could you please answer why "South Ossetia" has a right to "self-determination" and Chechnya does not?

To "help" you, here are major differences: Chechnya was occupied by Russia about 200 years ago. Samachablo ("South Ossetia" is a name imposed by Russians less than a hundred years ago) was not. Ossetians (Russians) killed many Georgians in Samachablo. Russians killed many Chechens in Chechnya.

By the way are you still looking for a proof that Georgian President Gamsakhurdia said "Georgians for Georgia"? I know it is not a simple task as proof does not exist. Meanwhile why don't we watch an election campaign video of Ragozin, Russian Ambassador to NATO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Rogozin

(I am sorry I don't have an English version of the movie. I will try to get it though. You can hear three languages at the same time and even though English is the most difficult of the three to hear you can still get an idea. DON'T MISS IT! by the way the whole movie is very interesting and, of course, banned in Russia.)

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPN3heRTvo&...9C1&index=0

Everything is symbolic in this video: the music, the way the people look, even watermelon! You don't need to be genius to guess that those bums are most likely Caucasians (from Caucasian region). Ragozin offers to clean Moscow of trash. Do you know what he means?

Georgians have never been hostile towards non-Georgian friends - ask Jews, who lived in Georgia for 26 centuries, if they have ever been discriminated. You made Ukrainians speak only Russian in Ukraine. Abkhazs, Armenians, Azeris, Ossetians... had their schools, theaters, universities, churches and mosques in Georgia.

This is a huge sculpture in Tbilisi:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5640/qdgq5.jpg

Our message is: if you come as a friend, we will meet you with wine but if you come as an enemy we will defend ourselves with a sword.

A Georgian classic story "Host-Guest" is about a men who dies defending his guest - a man who had killed the host's brother. The only reason the host defends him is that he is a guest in his house. This is in high school curriculum. Another classical poem we study in schools is about a battle between a tiger and a young hunter (loose translation) where both of them die. The mother of a young man gets devastated by the news but she says: it is very difficult for a tiger's mother too, she also lost her son. I need to go to her to console her.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1050/vefxi2tk8.jpg

So while I am not arguing that we are angels and saints, at least we are taught to love people, be noble and respect even enemies. This is part of Georgian propaganda, not racism, nationalism and hatred.

Oh, I know how you wished there were no sculptures, no ancient writings, nothing that would prove that Georgians were there for a very long time, that Abkhazia and Samachablo ("South Ossetia") were part of Georgia, that Georgians are not occupants. You still managed to rewrite Georgian history and convince your brainwashed population that Georgians are your #1 enemy, the worst people in the world. And by the way, even if we were the ugliest, dumbest, laziest people in the world it is still irrelevant. You still have as much right to occupy our land as I have to kill an obnoxious neighbour who everyone hates.

Russians are responsible for what's going on in Georgia now. Ossetians were fully integrated in Georgian society, there were tons of mixed families. It was not easy to make them an enemy but Russia managed that. They try to make sure we will not be friends again. Here are some of the representatives of the "South Ossetian" government:

Customs Security Chief - Anayolij Baranov (Russian) - Former head of FSB Service of Moldova

Minister of Defense - Vasily Lunev (Russian) - Former Military Commissar from Perm (Russia)

Chief of Security Council - Anatoly Barankevich (Russian) - From Stavropol (Russia)

Prime Minister - Yuri Morozov (Russian) - From ??? (Not "South or North Ossetia")

No wonder there is no peace between Georgians and Ossetians. Georgians did not want Ossetians to leave the region. We wanted to forget, forgive and try to heal wound. We still want that. It will not be easy and it will take time, but it is doable. Georgia was occupied by Turkey many times but we are friends now. We want to be friends with Ossetians. "South Ossetian Government" surely does not want that.

Now lets move away from sentiments and get back to reality.

Did you know that Russia conducted full scale military training less than a month before fighting started?

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080705/113174665.html

Did you know that Russians launched Cyberwar two weeks before the fighting started?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-...0,5922456.story

Did you know that Ossetians evacuated women and children just a day before the fighting started? I wonder why would they do that? Could it be because they knew they would do anything to start a war? I think you mentioned evacuation of Grozni...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7539282.stm

And finally did you know that Russia reduced the number of casualties to only 133(!)? No 2000, not even 1500 but there are only 133 victims of "genocide". And even this number is under question mark. It's been more than a week after the end of fighting and they still have not presented evidence of a single civilian killed by georgian military until now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm

Edited August 24, 2008 by Kaisa

[Kaisa]

http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/213663.html

Sooo interesting..

I wish it were in English but it will be one day.

I love my Russian friends.

[Isomorphic]

Russians are responsible for what's going on in Georgia now. Ossetians were fully integrated in Georgian society, there were tons of mixed families. It was not easy to make them an enemy but Russia managed that. They try to make sure we will not be friends again...

So was that before or after this happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%93...uth_Ossetia_War

Edited August 24, 2008 by Isomorphic

[Kaisa]

So was that before or after this happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%93...uth_Ossetia_War

Do you really think this proves that I am wrong in blaming Russia in the conflict? And by the way, "South Ossetians" were not Russian citizens then, were they? Also, Russians were not peacekeepers. How come Russian military units were involved in the war?

Let's forget about the fact that I can edit this page and write whatever I want to right now and let me copy the beginning of the article otherwise tomorrow people might not know what I am commenting on:

"The 1991–1992 South Ossetian War was fought as part of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict from 1991 to 1992 between the Georgian government forces and ethnic Georgian militias on one side and South Ossetian secessionists and North Ossetian volunteers on the other, with sporadic involvement of the Russian military units. The war ended through a Russian-brokered ceasefire that established a joint peacekeeping force and left South Ossetia divided between the rivaling authorities.

On the night of 5 January 1991, Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali. The Ossetian militants responded by firing at Georgian schools and houses in the city, while Georgians attacked Ossetian villages."

What an in-depth analysis! So, this is how the war started - one night Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali (Georgian territory by the way), nothing else happened before, nobody expected anything but Ossetians were ready to "fire at Georgian schools and houses in the city" and later 70,000 Ossetians (and probably 10,000 more North Ossetians and Russians, eh? ) defeated 5,000,000 Georgians.

By the way, the fact that there was a war does not mean that Ossetians and Georgians were not friends before Russia did everything to provoke fighting. Not only there are many examples of war between different ethnic groups that used to be friends, but it is also very easy to find cases of civil wars between representatives of the same ethnic groups - for example Russians.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Kaisa