Harper announces 20-year

[August1991]

As for Al-Queda and Hamas...we should be using our still formidable power of moral suasion to pressure the super-powers and other likeminded wannabes to stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and inspiring the development of groups like Al-Queda and Hamas. In the meantime, good old fashioned police-work is the only defense you'll ever have against a terrorist attack against Canada. All the military will ever be able to do is react to an attack after the fact..

Eyeball, we are bound to "interfere" in the affairs of other countries for the simple reason that Westerners travel about the world and act like, well, westerners.

As for your general argument about the pointlessness of buying big boats to protect Canada's endless coast line against refugees and pirates, I agree with you. I don't know enough about all this to say what we should buy but I know about the male fascination for big, expensive toys. It seems obvious to me that we will not be fighting any "conventional" wars in the near future. OTOH, I can see our troops fighting insurgencies in places like Afghanistan for many more years. Wouldn't better technology, small tanks and helicopters be more useful?

Can someone here explain to me why we need "big platform" destroyers?

[WarBicycle]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/12/canada-first.html

It is important no doubt to come up with a plan to replace aging aircraft and ships and will re-build the Forces.

I doubt the costs quoted though. $30 billion sounds like a program for the new destroyers alone.

With the exception of its tankers Canada's surface fleet is about ten years old.

[WarBicycle]

What's with the knee jerk reaction about nukes?

I don't know too much about you, are you aware of the decade of slashing our military that the Liberal party did in the 90s? Our military had to drive and fly crap (risking their lives to do so) so the Liberals could claim a balanced budget. The Sea Kings should have been burned long ago.

I served in Canada's navy for just over 23 years, the Liberals started slashing Canada's military in the 1960's. Despite being on IPS and guaranteed a job until age fifty-five I chose early retirement at age forty in 1987 because I was tired of repairing junk thanks to nearly twenty-five years of Liberal neglect.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[WarBicycle]

You're going to surround the CN Tower with 100,00 soldiers or use them to clean up the mess if it falls over? Are you suggesting these will be used to retaliate against a non-state? How does that work?

Easy, you attack the State that is providing them a safe haven.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[White Doors]

With the exception of its tankers Canada's surface fleet is about ten years old.

How do you figure that?

The newest ships, the frigates are all older than 10 years old...

the destroyers are like 40 years old..

[WarBicycle]

It is quite the achievement. This is her last year at RMC?

She must be a natural leader, I specialized in recruiting candidates for ROTP when I worked in recruitment.

[WarBicycle]

You are corrct. We can buy them cheaper from the US or Brits....well...probably not the Brits unless they want a trade in for the subs....

Why would be buy ships from another nation when we have the ability to design-build ourselves. In the early 1980's the Americans offered us its Spruance-class destroyers, we turned down and built our own destroyers because had we accepted the American offer we would have had to do all refits in the US at the cost of Canadian jobs. Halifax, St. John and Quebec city have world class ship building facilities.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[WarBicycle]

Just because you build a freighter doesn't mean you can handle the job of constructing a destroyer. They're quite a bit more complicated. And as we have no plans and no team, so far as I know, capable of designing plans, perhaps we can get the plans off the Aussies and have someone else build them.

Canada has been designing and building its own destroyers for the more than sixty years, when the American Spruance-class destroyers was launched it looked a lot like our 280-class destroyers built in the 1970's.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[WarBicycle]

How do you figure that?

The newest ships, the frigates are all older than 10 years old...

the destroyers are like 40 years old..

I'm retired from the Navy, most of our newer ships were commissioned in the mid 1990's. Three 280's will be 40-years-old in 2012, the

Americans are using similar type destroyers that are nearly as old. When I was in Australian in 1986 we tied up behind the USS Missouri, a WWII era battleship, it was armed with cruise missiles. It's is the equipment in a ship that matters, not the ship's age.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[White Doors]

I'm retired from the Navy, most of our newer ships were commissioned in the mid 1990's. Three 280's will be 40-years-old in 2012, the

Americans are using similar type destroyers that are nearly as old.

We got 12 frigates in the early to mid 1990's, but that;s it. all other ships are older than that. Thus, the average age of our surface fleet is much older than 10 years.

I don't need to have been in the navy to know that.

[M.Dancer]

Ahem...we have a shipbuilding industry out here in BC and I'm sure there's an industry on the East coast that could benefit from constructing these ships. Aside from the possible economic spin-offs of building these ships at home, what if the US and Britain are destroyed by an enemy attack? We need the capability to build and repair our own military ourselves. You would rather we depend on other countries to provide for our defence?

I'm sure they would. I have no doubt that some if not most construction to Canadainize the work would be done in Canada.....but defense doesn't exist to create jobs..I would rather we have the best for our dollar.

[M.Dancer]

For sea patrols and rescuing fishermen and refugee's that wash ashore we have the Coast Guard and the RCMP have boats on the coast as well. What pirates are you talking about?

There are about 300 incidents of piracy on the high seas each year, many in areas patrolled by Canadian warships including the Caribbean, Panama, Straits of Malacca, Gulf of Aden and others.

[M.Dancer]

I wonder if we could get the Aussies to sell us the plans to theirs.

I thought the plans were American>?

[M.Dancer]

Can someone here explain to me why we need "big platform" destroyers?

There's more than one reason but....

Better to ask, Aren't we happy with tagging along instead of leading?

Destroyers can act as flag ships for flotillas, which would give leadership to Canada ina particular mission. Unles of course simply following another nations leadership is good enough.

[bush_cheney2004]

I thought the plans were American>?

Yes and no....the Aussies would like their new Hobart class to be upscale Arleigh Burkes, but the cheaper Spanish F100 design also beckens. I think it would be ironic that Spanish designed hulls would patrol for Canada in the next Great Turbot War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_4000_Project

Either way, lots of American kit would be incorporated (e.g. Aegis sensor/combat system)

[Argus]

Canada has been designing and building its own destroyers for the more than sixty years, when the American Spruance-class destroyers was launched it looked a lot like our 280-class destroyers built in the 1970's.

The last time Canada designed a warship - the current halifax class frigates - we paid about twice what we woul d have paid to buy them from the US or UK, and they were flawed. I presume the same pattern would hold true if we designed destroyers.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Argus

[M.Dancer]

The last time Canada designed a warship - the current city class frigates - we paid about twice what we woul d have paid to buy them from the US or UK, and they were flawed. I presume the same pattern would hold true if we designed destroyers.

What flaws are you talking about and what modern ship has ever been launched that didn't have something not to spec...?

[Argus]

What flaws are you talking about and what modern ship has ever been launched that didn't have something not to spec...?

I'm not talking about little bugs. Among the major problems, if I'm recalling correctly, were that they made too much noise, there was interference between the radar and the communications, and they had a lot of difficulty accomodating the kind of large, long-range helicopters they were supposed to carry.

And yes, there are inevitably bugs in launching a new line of ships. That's why it's expensive to launch a new line of ships, and why you should avoid it if you're only going to produce four of them.

Let the Americans work out the kinks while building dozens of theirs, then buy a few.

[WarBicycle]

All new ships have design flaws that are eventually corrected, why would be give up well paying jobs to the US or Britain?

[WarBicycle]

We got 12 frigates in the early to mid 1990's, but that;s it. all other ships are older than that. Thus, the average age of our surface fleet is much older than 10 years.

I don't need to have been in the navy to know that.

Canada has 3 Iroquois class destroyers (280's) that were built in 1972/73, these are similar to the American Spruance class destroyer still in use today; we have 12 Halifax class frigates that were built between 1992 and 1996; 4 Victoria class submarines the Liberals purchased from the RN built between 1990 and 1993; 12 Kingston class coastal defense ships built between 1996 and 1999; 2 repleshment ships built in 1969/70 (replacements are on the drawing boards); auxilary vessels: HMCS Quest built in 1969, HMCS Orca built in 2006; and 21 tugs and diving tenders that are relatively new. Equally important, both coasts have modern dockyards with top notch facilities. Where are all the 40-year-old rusted out destroyers? What the Canadian military needs is modern aircraft.

Edited May 13, 2008 by WarBicycle

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has 3 Iroquois class destroyers (280's) that were built in 1972/73, these are similar to the American Spruance class destroyer still in use today....

The Americans decommissioned their last Spruance class destroyer in 2005....most have been sunk as targets. The hull design lives on in a super-size version as the USS Ticonderoga class cruiser. First used on Iroquois, the Spruance demonstrated the viability of dedicated gas tubine (turbo shaft) propulsion for extended periods for the US Navy, which is now the standard for American frigates and destroyers. From my limited time on tin cans, it is so much better than oil fired boilers and 1200 psi steam plant.

So yeah, Iroquois was important, and it would be a shame if Canada lost this domestic capability.

Edited May 13, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[M.Dancer]

12 Kingston class coastal defense ships built between 1996 and 1999 ....

These are best described by the acronym SLABS

slow, lightly armed pleasure boats.

[White Doors]

Canada has 3 Iroquois class destroyers (280's) that were built in 1972/73, these are similar to the American Spruance class destroyer still in use today; we have 12 Halifax class frigates that were built between 1992 and 1996; 4 Victoria class submarines the Liberals purchased from the RN built between 1990 and 1993; 12 Kingston class coastal defense ships built between 1996 and 1999; 2 repleshment ships built in 1969/70 (replacements are on the drawing boards); auxilary vessels: HMCS Quest built in 1969, HMCS Orca built in 2006; and 21 tugs and diving tenders that are relatively new. Equally important, both coasts have modern dockyards with top notch facilities. Where are all the 40-year-old rusted out destroyers? What the Canadian military needs is modern aircraft.

Where is the rusted out destroyers?

umm...

has 3 Iroquois class destroyers (280's) that were built in 1972/73,

You also forgot the re-supply ships.

the coastal defnce vessels are really coast guard class ships. And again, the average age is much older than 10 years old.

Edited May 13, 2008 by White Doors

[WarBicycle]

Ten years is not considered old for a warship, these are not GM built vehicles.

[M.Dancer]

Ten years is not considered old for a warship, these are not GM built vehicles.

30 years on the otherhand....