HisSelf Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 (edited) Zionism is silly - It started in about 1890...Half the Jews meeting in Austria wanted to wait for goodness to occur via a messiah..the other half were materialistic and wanted to gain security and a "homeland' by controling and having great wealth... Ziomism was a response to a repressive environment. You and I would do the same given the conditions that Jews were dealing with at the time. Israel is a legitimate state with a very big challenge. It needs to recognize the reality that can make it great or destroy it. Israel is the key to Middle East relations and it has so far failed to come to grips with its biggest opportunity. Edited April 29, 2008 by HisSelf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socred Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 (edited) Like you, I agree that Jews make excellent tenants bringing about a world of success (and inturn jealousy) everywhere they go. Yes, they are "God's chosen people". Talk about selective history. Oh I forgot, those countries wanted to expel Jews because they were jealous. They must have been jealous of the ghettos. . I wonder if the people in this thread who think that countries were made so much better by the Jews are in fact Jews themselves? Edited April 29, 2008 by socred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Well fine. Instead of focussng on the Jews, why don't you focus on the situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Well fine. Instead of focussng on the Jews, why don't you focus on the situation? Who cares - but you are right - this Jew thing clouds the mind...besides...we have to take care of humanity and we are all in the same small boat at this time history..good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Who cares - but you are right - this Jew thing clouds the mind...besides...we have to take care of humanity and we are all in the same small boat at this time history..good luck! So you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 So you agree? Yes - easily...comes a time to find solutions and a time to leave the past behind. Yes National Socialism was a nightmare - Yes Zionism has become what they hate..if you hate something long enough you become that object..I do believe we have learned our lessons - extremism and reactionary attitudes and hate that clouds judgement must be put aside- If not..we are doomed..all of us. This is not a problem that is specific to one group - this is a human difficulty born in human frailty and the worst parts of our nature - Joy to the world buddy..let their be a new day and peace..let the dead bury the dead as a great Jew once said- Time to live again- one and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Yes, they are "God's chosen people".Talk about selective history. Oh I forgot, those countries wanted to expel Jews because they were jealous. They must have been jealous of the ghettos. . I wonder if the people in this thread who think that countries were made so much better by the Jews are in fact Jews themselves? You really need to read past the first sentence of a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 You really need to read past the first sentence of a post. Hey God does not choose any person or group over another..that would be like me sitting on a huge golden throne and looking down at a swamp and choosing and favouring one leopard frog or germ above another - besides..the contract or covenant between the Jews and God is null and void...to have a contract between God and the Jews must go both ways to be sound...Israel is secularized as are 90% of Jews - no contract - no covenant no deal - no choosen people - secularization is the great debaser and equalizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hey God does not choose any person or group over another..that would be like me sitting on a huge golden throne and looking down at a swamp and choosing and favouring one leopard frog or germ above another - besides..the contract or covenant between the Jews and God is null and void...to have a contract between God and the Jews must go both ways to be sound...Israel is secularized as are 90% of Jews - no contract - no covenant no deal - no choosen people - secularization is the great debaser and equalizer. I'm not sure if I ever gave the impression that I disagree, but ok. Thanks for sharing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socred Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 (edited) You really need to read past the first sentence of a post. I read your entire post. And I spent as much time in response as it deserved. Edited April 29, 2008 by socred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 I read your entire post. And I spent as much time in response as it deserved. Say what you want about Israel, but there is statistical data showing a higher average IQ amongst Ashkenazi Jews, along with higher social demographics compared to other ethnic groups. It's people like you who make it impossible to criticise Israel without being labelled anti-semitic. It's very frustrating to say the least when people like me bring up valid points yet we get lumped with the likes of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socred Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 (edited) Say what you want about Israel, but there is statistical data showing a higher average IQ amongst Ashkenazi Jews, along with higher social demographics compared to other ethnic groups. That's exactly what Adolph Hitler said about the Germans compared to other "races", and he had all sorts of German scientists doing studies to prove it. Seems the Zionists and the Nazis have something else in common. It's people like you who make it impossible to criticise Israel without being labelled anti-semitic. It's very frustrating to say the least when people like me bring up valid points yet we get lumped with the likes of you. I'm not anti-semitic. Are all semites Jews? Are all Jews semites? Are all Zionists Jews? Are all Jews Zionists? Seems you need to take an introductory course in set theory. Edited April 29, 2008 by socred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 However, that's where the similarity between our sentiments ends. Despite the jealousy, brutality and historical misfortune that has been bestowed upon your people, I cannot bring myself to agree with you that "your right to self-determination" should be granted...... on someone else's land. The Jewish expulsion from different countries seems to be very close to your heart. Yet close to a million Palestinians were met with the same fate in the creation of the state of Israel. Their right to self-determination doesn't seem to matter though.... I must extend my respect for the first part of your post.On the merits though there is a tension. The same way that the Jews helped bring prosperity and industry to their host European and American countries, they turned what's now Israel into a garden spot from being a mixture of swamps and deserts. This required hired labor and the (now so-called) Palestinians were happy to oblige. Some of them fled, largely under the spur of their demagogic leaders. The Arabs that remained are now, aside from royalty, the most prosperous Arabs in the Middle East and certainly the freeest. There is no real distinction between what the Jews did for Europe and America and what they did for the Middle East. Understood that way, the Jews in fact "got there first" (even if you discount Biblical-era history) and have the right to self-determination. By your logic, the Jews would never have the same right to self-determination given Czechs and Poles, because of their brutally forced dispersions, first from the Holy Land and later from sanctuary countries such as Moorish Spain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 (edited) Oh I forgot, those countries wanted to expel Jews because they were jealous. They must have been jealous of the ghettos. . I wonder if the people in this thread who think that countries were made so much better by the Jews are in fact Jews themselves? The following are true facts and verified statistics: The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1957 - Albert Camus (I doubt that he even was a Moslem) 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 or about 0.02% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Physics: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles DE Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 2000 - Alan J. Heeger Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Mars! hall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini] 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1995 - Edwrd B. Lewis Physics: 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1995 - Martin Perl The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge, the Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economical strength of the Petroleum, nor the possibilities To force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal education and less in blaming The Jews for all their problems, we could all live in a better world. THINK ABOUT IT! Edited April 30, 2008 by jbg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestViking Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 (edited) Partially agreed. Like you, I agree that Jews make excellent tenants bringing about a world of success (and inturn jealousy) everywhere they go.The naysayers would have us believe that Jews migrate to successful countries *in order* to prosper. I think that's putting the chicken before the egg... I firmly believe wherever Jews go *ends up* very prosperous as a result of your contributions to fields like science, humanities and technology. We've seen this time and time again from the Roman Empire to the expulsion of Jews in 20th century from different countries. The ratio of Jewish under-achievers is statistically very low compared to other groups, and from my personal experiences, I also believe Jews are incredibly warm, family-oriented, hard-working and successful. Some of you may end up with a big head about it, but hey, I can't say it's not well deserved. However, that's where the similarity between our sentiments ends. Despite the jealousy, brutality and historical misfortune that has been bestowed upon your people, (1) I cannot bring myself to agree with you that "your right to self-determination" should be granted...... on someone else's land. (2) The Jewish expulsion from different countries seems to be very close to your heart. Yet close to a million Palestinians were met with the same fate in the creation of the state of Israel. Their right to self-determination doesn't seem to matter though.... (1) The lands on which Israel was formed was owned and controlled by the British Government following WW-I (starting in 1918) and prior to that had been part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The British did not want to make good their promised to the Jews of Europe and turned the lands over to the United Nations. The UN created two nations; Israel and Palestine. Local Arabs refused to accept Palestine and vowed to destroy Israel. They are still trying 60 years later. (2) Nowhere near a million Palestinians left Israel. Those who did leave, did so at the urging of neighboring nations who set out to destroy Israel in 1948 and told their countrymen to flee the immanent slaughter. Turned out they were wrong, Israel survived and most of the adults who fled Israel 60 years ago are now dead. Edited April 30, 2008 by WestViking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 The following are true facts and verified statistics: Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal education and less in blaming The Jews for all their problems, we could all live in a better world. THINK ABOUT IT! Is this turning into one of those "Muslims are bad...except for the one's who aren't" threads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Is this turning into one of those "Muslims are bad...except for the one's who aren't" threads?Huh?I was rebutting someone who was saying that there's little to envy about the Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Huh?I was rebutting someone who was saying that there's little to envy about the Jews. Ah. So you used Nobel Prizes won by Muslims as the benchmark to show that he should envy Jews. Wouldn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Interesting -but - I don’t understand - why did Your mother’s family lose their farm ?? Were they evicted ? When and why ?? My mother never talked about it much since she had no direct memory of this experience. But from what I gather, it had something to do with men with guns knocking on the door and saying you've got 48 hours to get out! It probably had nothing to do with any legal notice, but during the chaos of the time, most of the Germans living in that area left. Supposedly, they were guaranteed the right to stay if they adopted Polish citizenship and accepted Polish as their language, but few, if any Germans stayed behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Ah. So you used Nobel Prizes won by Muslims as the benchmark to show that he should envy Jews.Wouldn't work for me. It does beg the question: instead of being filled with homicidal jealousy, why isn't the Muslim World achieving academic greatness instead of achieving their aims through belligerence and aggression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 Say what you want about Israel, but there is statistical data showing a higher average IQ amongst Ashkenazi Jews, along with higher social demographics compared to other ethnic groups. One recent study posited that the Ashkenazi advantage developed because of the persecution and restrictions in Europe. Primarily because Jews weren't allowed to own land in most European nations and therefore could not take up farming like the majority of people did a thousand years ago. So, they had to develop their intellectual resources and learn trades that were valued by the general population. I think the academic achievements by Jews were downplayed because of the influence of many socialist intellectuals who had a default belief that everyone has equal abilities. Unfortunately, this reluctance left the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists to claim that the reason for the disproportionate success of Jews in business was some secret conspiracy like the "Elders of Zion." It may have been rude, but it probably would have been better to say: "yeah, we have lots of doctors, lawyers and bankers because we're a little smarter than everyone else!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socred Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 The following are true facts and verified statistics: The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1957 - Albert Camus (I doubt that he even was a Moslem) 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 or about 0.02% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Physics: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles DE Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 2000 - Alan J. Heeger Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Mars! hall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini] 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1995 - Edwrd B. Lewis Physics: 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1995 - Martin Perl The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge, the Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economical strength of the Petroleum, nor the possibilities To force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal education and less in blaming The Jews for all their problems, we could all live in a better world. THINK ABOUT IT! Wow! Too bad I'm not Muslim, so I'm not sure what your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socred Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 (edited) It may have been rude, but it probably would have been better to say: "yeah, we have lots of doctors, lawyers and bankers because we're a little smarter than everyone else!' Of course you are, Jews are the master race don't you know? Christians forbid the charging of interest, or usury, so did Muslims. Jews did as well, but only to fellow Jews. That's why the Jews were bankers. And we all know about Jewish "legalism", and the following of the "law". That's why there's so many Jewish lawyers. You know what they say about lawyers? Edited April 30, 2008 by socred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 You know what they say about lawyers? Besides being officers of the court and sworn servants of the Crown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 It does beg the question: instead of being filled with homicidal jealousy, why isn't the Muslim World achieving academic greatness instead of achieving their aims through belligerence and aggression? No need to demonize. Muslims aren't filled with homicidal jealousy. Acedemic greatness will not achieve thier aims? Whose aims? What aims? Jordan's aims? Syria's aims? Egypt's aims? Indonesia's aims? Irans aims? Osama bin Laden's aims? Libya's? Iraq's? Turkey's? The Grand Mufti's? Sudan? Afghanistan? The Taliban? Or maybe you mean the aims of Hamas or maybe Palestinians in general or maybe Hezbollah or maybe someone else. To say they all have the same aim and that aim that they all have they are attempting to achieve through belligerence and aggression is obviously not true. So please define whose aim's you are talking about; what those aims are and how acedemic greatness will achieve them and then perhaps we can have a rational discussion on another thread instead of hijacking this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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