Zionism is an Example of National Self-Determination

[jbg]

You're on your own with this one! Is Israel a white country?

No. The Ashkenazi Jews are mostly white. The Sephardic Jews and Oriental Jews (from Arab countries) not really. Its Western orientation marks it as "white".

Some sort of inferiority complex was set off, judging by their hostility to everything Western; but fighting the "Zionist Entity" seems to be the issue that gets everyone fighting on the same side. I don't know if Israel can ever be safe from the threat of attack, but if there is no possibility to reach a peace agreement, then it means a bleak future for Israel of border skirmishes and terrorist attacks, and the burden of maintaining a costly military for the unforeseeable future.

You are forgetting the alternative, which would be a devastating attack by Israel and other Western countries on the Muslim world. The West does not have to withstand barbarian-type attacks such as September 11 and pizza-parlor bombings without response.

[WIP]

Won't the next "rallying point" be (take your pick):

1. Mohamed cartoons;
   
2. Offensive McLeans articles;
   
3. Offensive Marc Steyn articles;
   
4. Offensive Ezra Levant articles;
   
5. Offensive U.S. Presidents;
   
6. Failure to provide separate swimming pool hours by gender; and/or
   
7. Prosecution of organizers of terror attacks
   

In short people can choose to be offended by anything, if they need a rallying cry. In the US we've had both "remember the Alamo" (directed at Mexico) or "54'40" or fight" (directed at Britain/Canada/BC). Has that obstructed either US peace with Canada or Mexico, or reform movements in the US? After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live. Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims?

Everything Western can be used as ammo by Islamic clerics looking to incite mob violence. But maybe there's some light at the end of the tunnel; did you notice in today's news, there is a story about a rally in Pakistan to protest the Danish cartoons and Geert Wilder's movie "Fitna", and nobody died! And the speakers apparently called on the government to sever ties with Denmark and Holland.......not assasinations and suicide bombings.........well I guess that's a start! I'll keep my hopes up! http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jtpvDI...-1YeIMW25ErQBOg

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments.

Yes, enshrining warrior culture as the highest values created a very successful fighting force, but for people living in cities, they ended up with a more violent, rigidly patriarchal society than they otherwise would have had. On a side note, I've pointed out to Christians who wave their bibles at me on issues of morality, that the Hebrews and the Israelites had the similar pattern of raiding villages and killing on behalf of Yahweh, and even in the First Century, the Zealots were the first terrorists - committing random killings of Romans and Jews identified as collaborators. If the kind of religion practised by the Zealots was still a factor in Judaism, there would Jewish suicide bombers; but somehow after the Temple was destroyed, Rabbinical Judaism was reformulated into a peaceful religion. What changed in Judaism that ended this "might makes right" mentality?

In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude.

I like to remind fundamentalist Christians of that point when they start on a roll about how much superior their religion is to Islam! Yes, up until fairly modern times, Christendom did not have any theological means to accomodate other religions. It took the 30 Years War and other skirmishes before Catholics and Protestants were even able to live together in the same countries! So, when it came to Jews and Gypsies, there wasn't a means to even allow 2nd class status. So the persecutions of the Jews in Europe were not led by the bad Christians, they were organized by the most devout Christians trying to carry out the rules!

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americans to crack down rather than pay tribute.

That is probably one of the biggest untold stories these days in the slave trade! If you watched Roots on T.V. 30 years ago, you would be led to believe that Americans sailed over to Africa and started loading West African villagers on to slave ships! Usually Africans ended up as slaves after being captured by enemy tribesmen and sold to Arab slave traders first. Many Arab nations didn't finally make slavery illegal until the 60's, and according to some of the horror stories of labourers and domestic workers in Saudi Arabia, it's still going on there today!

[WIP]

No. The Ashkenazi Jews are mostly white. The Sephardic Jews and Oriental Jews (from Arab countries) not really. Its Western orientation marks it as "white".

From what little I've read about Israel, the Sephardic Jews have a lot of differences with the Jews who came from Europe. The rise of Menachem Begin and the Likud Party was attributed to the dissatisfaction of the the Jews who came out of the Arab World. And what about the Ethiopian Jews who were air-lifted in several years ago? Are they considered equal by the rest of the Israeli population? Or something less?

You are forgetting the alternative, which would be a devastating attack by Israel and other Western countries on the Muslim world. The West does not have to withstand barbarian-type attacks such as September 11 and pizza-parlor bombings without response.

So you would start launching nukes if Hezbollah and Hamas doesn't stop their random rocket attacks?

[BC_chick]

What a pile of supremiscist BS this whole thread is. But convenient to lay blame on the inferiors eh?

Sickening....

I hear ya. The following post from Peter F summed it up perfectly:

Such reasoning only applies to non-muslims. We non-muslims do things motivated by greed, wealth, taxes, jealousy, anger, frustration, power, sex etc etc etc. Muslims are only motivated by thier religion.

I don't know why I bothered hanging around trying to reason after that.

[buffycat]

I hear ya. The following post from Peter F summed it up perfectly:

"Such reasoning only applies to non-muslims. We non-muslims do things motivated by greed, wealth, taxes, jealousy, anger, frustration, power, sex etc etc etc. Muslims are only motivated by thier religion."

I don't know why I bothered hanging around trying to reason after that.

Yeah, there is little point bothering with many on here.

Sad..

[WarBicycle]

Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations

With exception of Turkey most Muslim nations don't do very well and Israel's large Arab population probably accounts for its low score.

Edited May 5, 2008 by WarBicycle

[buffycat]

Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations

With exception of Turkey most Muslim nations don't do very well and Israel's large Arab population probably accounts for its low score.

So, lemme get this straight - you blame Israel's low showing soley on the Arab population there???

And you find this OK?

So - if Canada were to score low - who would you blame? The aboriginals? The French? The poor?

Gosh, if Germany's score was low in the 1930's would you have simply blamed the Jews?

Your post speaks for itself...

[WarBicycle]

The Jews would have kept Germany's score high. The Looney Left want Obama to be President, Kenya's average IQ is seventy-two.

[Peter F]

The Jews would have kept Germany's score high. The Looney Left want Obama to be President, Kenya's average IQ is seventy-two.

and Safeway is selling eggs for 3.00 per dozen. So you are wrong; the Queen really is a female

Edited May 6, 2008 by Peter F

[jbg]

Yeah, there is little point bothering with many on here.

Sad..

On this we agree heartily.

[jbg]

What a pile of supremiscist BS this whole thread is. But convenient to lay blame on the inferiors eh?

Sickening....

I guess you're saying that only exotic ethnics deserve self-determination?

[WIP]

Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations

With exception of Turkey most Muslim nations don't do very well and Israel's large Arab population probably accounts for its low score.

I don't know if this worth adding; but a large percentage of Israeli Jews are Sephardic, in other words they have come out of Arab countries, Many, if not most, were Arabs who converted to Judaism in the distant past, and declined converting to Islam after the time of Muhammed. So maybe you can blame them for bringing down Israel's test scores also!

Your link is to a chart provided by Richard Lynn on national averages of IQ test scores. Lynn claims there are differences between the races (and between men and women) in intelligence, and he apparently believes that these differences are virtually cast in stone, and "inferior" races should be "phased out" because they cannot be improved! Anyway you slice it, this is pure and simple Nazism, and it's easy to see how a society following this code could bring back everything from eugenics to gas chambers - which would take care of that pesky inferior race problem!

On that basis, Dr. Lynn's ideas should be rejected even if they are true! But regardless, modern neuroscience is showing us that intelligence, creativity, temperament etc., is not a matter of nature vs. nurture. Instead, genetics and environment are interwoven together, making it impossible to separate them into neat little categories.

Let's start with the Jews, since you already mentioned them as an example of exceptionally brainy people, and anecdotally, they punch well above their weight in academia, which could add credence to the notion that there is a Jewish advantage.......or at least a European Jewish advantage! Evolutionary psychologist Stephen Pinker discusses a published research paper that claims to identify the gene which gave Jews the intellectual advantage in Europe. But the study also indicates that it was a rapid adaptation, likely to environmental factors that denied Jews the opportunity to earn a living by farming or other common ways at the time; but conditions in dark ages Europe left opportunities in many professions that required intelligence. Natural selection would have favoured the genes which led to the increase in brain power:

The Utah researchers Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy, and Henry Harpending (henceforth CH&H) proposed that Ashkenazi Jews have a genetic advantage in intelligence, and that the advantage arose from natural selection for success in middleman occupations (moneylending, selling, and estate management) during the first millennium of their existence in northern Europe, from about 800 C.E. to 1600 C.E. Since rapid selection of a single trait often brings along deleterious by-products, this evolutionary history also bequeathed the genetic diseases known to be common among Ashkenazim, such as Tay-Sachs and Gaucher's.

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/med...ewrepublic.html

But what about Lynn's contention that some races are doomed to failure! If environmental factors could influence gene selection to create more intelligent people, logic suggests that this can work in reverse also! And many cognitive neuroscientists look at living conditions of the poor, and conclude that living in poverty has a negative effect on a child's brain development: http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~mfarah/farah_SES_05.pdf If just living in poverty is going to limit potential brain development, impairing cognitive ability and emotional stability, it's easy to see how the cycle of poverty becomes a vicious circle that's almost impossible to escape from!

Some links are obvious! A child living in poverty is more likely to be exposed to lead poisoning, which severely limits brain development in young children; but poor nutrition of the mother before birth and even afterwards, what she feeds her children in those early years, is another important factor. Malnutrition not only stunts a child's physical growth, it also stunts brain development as well! http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/nutr.html Living in poverty also increases the odds of depression and drug addiction problems. A mother who is either depressed or drug dependent, may not be able to provide enough interaction with her child. If there is little involvement from others, the child's brain will be stunted and not reach it's potential to develop the same number of dendritic connections between neurons that the same child would have if he or she grew up in a normal home environment.

So far, I haven't even gotten to the weaknesses of I.Q. testing in measuring intelligence in the first place.........but this is taking too long! Intelligence is made of a number of different abilities, and few people excel in every category! IQ tests may assess analytical and verbal aptitude well, but they are not regarded as very accurate in assessing creativity, practical knowledge, and other skills involved in problem solving.

[M.Dancer]

Many, if not most, were Arabs who converted to Judaism in the distant past, and declined converting to Islam after the time of Muhammed.

cite

[jbg]

cite

I don't have one but that's my understanding too. It's well known that Medina had a large Jewish community that Mohamed had some serious difficulties with. It is also true that Sephardim do not match Ashkenazi IQ levels. This is because until the 20th Century they were not persecute, and the trades to which they were restricted in the Islamic world were not as intellectual-intense, and high IQ didn't give any particular advantage.

[M.Dancer]

I don't have one but that's my understanding too. It's well known that Medina had a large Jewish community that Mohamed had some serious difficulties with. It is also true that Sephardim do not match Ashkenazi IQ levels. This is because until the 20th Century they were not persecute, and the trades to which they were restricted in the Islamic world were not as intellectual-intense, and high IQ didn't give any particular advantage.

Somehow I don't think the Shepardim would have the same understanding. As well, as you know, the sephardim of north africa have Spanish roots and from there after being exicled from spain moved throughout the Arab world where they enjoyed much more freedom than under Ctaholic rule.

[WIP]

cite

Santachiara noted in 1993 that mtDNA (female) studies had already been published, by Batsheva Bonne-Tamir et al (1986) and by Tikochenski et al (1991), but that genetic comparisons for male Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Y-chromosomes) had not been done (p. 56). Tikochinski, using Israeli samples, had analyzed twenty-one Ashkenazi women from Eastern Europe and thirty-eight Sephardi women (mostly from Morocco). Her data implied that these Jewish women descended from a diversity of maternal lineages that had been distinct for four to five thousand years. Thomas et al, in 2002, published data on Jewish women in nine geographically separated areas, and concluded that, contrary to non-Jews, there was greater differentiation for mtDNA than for the Y-chromosome, that “cultural practice–in this case, female-defined ethnicity–has had a pronounced effect on patterns of genetic variation” http://www.cryptojews.com/Comparing_DNA.htm

In other words, the close similarity of Y- chromosone DNA from Jewish men contrasted with the disparate sources of Mitochondrial DNA (which is traced through the mother's lineage) would indicate that most of the genetic variation between various Jewish populations was likely a result of Jewish men migrating to the new regions and marrying local women. But..................................

By the early 1990s, however, methodological advances were beginning to make it possible for Y-chromosome studies also to be conducted. In 1991, Livshits et al compared twelve pairs of Jewish and non-Jewish populations from the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe with each Jewish/non-Jewish pair sharing the same (or close) geographic area: Yemen, Iran, Iraq; Morocco and Libya; Poland, Russia, and Georgia; Germany and Czechoslovakia; Bulgaria and Turkey/Spain (Turkish Jews were compared to Spanish non-Jews because most Turkish Jews were exiled from Spain by the Inquisition). Their conclusion: modern Jewish populations in general derived from an earlier common gene pool which had undergone relatively little admixture with non-Jewish neighbors after dispersal from Israel. Somewhat differently, Kurdish Jews had experienced considerable interaction with non-Jewish Kurds, and Yemenite Jews may have had a substantial component of different genes from conversion into Judaism (p. 145)....Interestingly, Ethiopian Jews and the Lemba did not match closely with the cluster of Jewish groups (p. 6774)..........................Ashkenazim are not closely related to their Central and Eastern European neighbors or to any group outside the Middle East or Near East. Sephardim are more closely related to their neighbors than are the Ashkenazim, but the Sephardim still are much more closely related to the other two Jewish groups, the other Middle Easterners, and the Mediterraneans than they are to their western European neighbors. The Jewish community in the Netherlands is the most obvious example of genetic admixture, a pattern which will be seen more often due to major increases in intermarriages. http://www.cryptojews.com/Comparing_DNA.htm

Although most Jewish communities show close genetic similarities( except for Lemba and Ethiopian Jews), the Sephardim, especially the Kurdish and Yemenite Jews, show closer similarities to their non-Jewish neighbours than other Jews. This at least provides circumstantial evidence that they converted many locals to Judaism at some point in the past.

It's worth noting that modern DNA studies have blown some previous theories about Jewish origins out of the water! Especially the one that Ashkenazi Jews originated from Khazar converts to Judaism. Historical records showed Khazar rulers and at least the upper classes converted to Judaism, but the lack of a significant genetic legacy could indicate that the population as a whole kept their existing religions until converted to Islam. Likewise, the theory that Sephardic Jews were Berbers converted to Judaism doesn't hold much water..................

It pointed to the genetic unity of widespread Jewish populations and took issue with ideas that most Jewish communities were relatively recent converts like the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that embraced Judaism.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all

The evidence confirms at least one segment from Biblical history: the Y-chromosome evidence indicates that Jews and Arabs both would have had their origin in Mesopotamia about 4000 years ago.

The finding suggested that Jewish men who founded the communities traced their lineage back to the ancestral Mideastern population of 4,000 years ago from which Arabs, Jews and other people are descended. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all

Edited May 7, 2008 by WIP

[M.Dancer]

Although most Jewish communities show close genetic similarities, the Sephardim, especially the Kurdish and Yemenite Jews, show closer similarities to their non-Jewish neighbours than other Jews. This at least provides circumstantial evidence that they converted many locals to Judaism at some point in the past.

Except that, if it is correct, yemite and "kurdish"jews make up a small proportion of sephardic jewry

[WIP]

Except that, if it is correct, yemite and "kurdish"jews make up a small proportion of sephardic jewry

How many are there exactly? The genetic results would indicate that Sephardic Jews as a whole, blended in with the local populations better than the Jews who went to Europe. It seems logical, considering the greater degree with which they adopted local customs.

The big surprise to me from these recent studies is that the Khazar Jews seemed to have virtually disappeared! I never bought the KKK-promoted excuse that was used to excuse their antisemitism - namely that the Khazars replaced the Jews of the Bible before they moved to Europe (kind of an Invasion of the Body Snatchers story if you think about it), but I was surprised that they left no significant imprint on the Ashkenazi population, considering the widely held belief that the Jews travelled through this area on their way to Europe.

BTW, I added a couple of items to the first post.

[M.Dancer]

How many are there exactly? The genetic results would indicate that Sephardic Jews as a whole, blended in with the local populations better than the Jews who went to Europe. It seems logical, considering the greater degree with which they adopted local customs.

The big surprise to me from these recent studies is that the Khazar Jews seemed to have virtually disappeared! I never bought the KKK-promoted excuse that was used to excuse their antisemitism - namely that the Khazars replaced the Jews of the Bible before they moved to Europe (kind of an Invasion of the Body Snatchers story if you think about it), but I was surprised that they left no significant imprint on the Ashkenazi population, considering the widely held belief that the Jews travelled through this area on their way to Europe.

BTW, I added a couple of items to the first post.

I agree, the Kazar myth is entirly without merit.

[jbg]

It's worth noting that modern DNA studies have blown some previous theories about Jewish origins out of the water! Especially the one that Ashkenazi Jews originated from Khazar converts to Judaism. Historical records showed Khazar rulers and at least the upper classes converted to Judaism, but the lack of a significant genetic legacy could indicate that the population as a whole kept their existing religions until converted to Islam. Likewise, the theory that Sephardic Jews were Berbers converted to Judaism doesn't hold much water..................

The Khazar myth is a mischevious effort on the part of anti-Jews to demonize the State of Israel. While until the early portion of the Common Era (known as "A.C." to others) there were frequent conversions of polytheists to Judaism, most were eventually lost to Christianity or Islam, as a result of persecution, and the lack of circumcision requirement.

[M.Dancer]

(known as "A.C." to others)

What is that? Alternate Calendar? Is that an american usage? In canada and most of the christian world, we us A.D which is Anno Domini....year of the lord. Which is appropirate because that is the starting point of our calendar, the year Chjrist is thought to have been born. I find the C.E. usage silly....if someone was to ask, why is it 2008 and not 5768, the answer isn't "oh just because..."

[jbg]

What is that? Alternate Calendar? Is that an american usage? In canada and most of the christian world, we us A.D which is Anno Domini....year of the lord. Which is appropirate because that is the starting point of our calendar, the year Chjrist is thought to have been born. I find the C.E. usage silly....if someone was to ask, why is it 2008 and not 5768, the answer isn't "oh just because..."

"B.C.E." means "Before the Common Era" instead of "Before Christ". "C.E." means "during the Common Era: instead of "Anno Domini". 5768 is the Hebrew year. B.C.E. and C.E. are "religion-neutral" expressions for the same year as commonly useed. Good question though.

[M.Dancer]

Good question though.

Why did the common era start 2008 years ago?

[jbg]

Why did the common era start 2008 years ago?

Obviously to match the standard calendar and avoid Christian nomenclature in labeling it.

[M.Dancer]

Obviously to match the standard calendar and avoid Christian nomenclature in labeling it.

Are you saying it has nothing to do with Christianity?