Zionism is an Example of National Self-Determination

[Peter F]

So... many non-Muslims have felt the same way about hosting a different people vs. living under their rule. First Nations are a perfect example of that.

Think also what would happen if the doom-filled prophecies of Muslims penetrating and taking over a land do come true in Canada or any other western nation. People would take up arms... and it would have absolutely zero to do with being a "homocidal Muslim" (your words which triggered this debate).

The common denominator in each of these scenarios is therefore human-nature, not Islam.

Such reasoning only applies to non-muslims. We non-muslims do things motivated by greed, wealth, taxes, jealousy, anger, frustration, power, sex etc etc etc. Muslims are only motivated by thier religion.

[BC_chick]

I must extend my respect for the first part of your post.

On the merits though there is a tension. The same way that the Jews helped bring prosperity and industry to their host European and American countries, they turned what's now Israel into a garden spot from being a mixture of swamps and deserts. This required hired labor and the (now so-called) Palestinians were happy to oblige. Some of them fled, largely under the spur of their demagogic leaders. The Arabs that remained are now, aside from royalty, the most prosperous Arabs in the Middle East and certainly the freeest.

So if Chinese or Muslim immigrants came to the US in huge numbers where one day they declared themselves the rulers of the land, you'd be a-okay with that.... as long as they make the place all nice?

Edited May 1, 2008 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

(1) The lands on which Israel was formed was owned and controlled by the British Government following WW-I (starting in 1918) and prior to that had been part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The British did not want to make good their promised to the Jews of Europe and turned the lands over to the United Nations. The UN created two nations; Israel and Palestine. Local Arabs refused to accept Palestine and vowed to destroy Israel. They are still trying 60 years later.

I'm sure you would do the exact same thing if Canada went to war with China, lost, and the Chinese (begrudgingly) gave the land to North Korea because they had promised to do so.

My point here is that this was the land they have lived on for centuries according to their own rules and customs. Vowing to destroy Israel has a terrible stigma attached to it, but it's not any different than what you or anyone else would do in the same situation.

Nevertheless, the Palestinians are finally coming around to accepting their fate. See my thread about Hamas accepting Israel's right to exist in peace. Incidentally, not too many Israeli-supporters commenting there, it's much easier to keep repeating the mantra that Israel wants peace, Hamas are all animals.

(2) Nowhere near a million Palestinians left Israel. Those who did leave, did so at the urging of neighboring nations who set out to destroy Israel in 1948 and told their countrymen to flee the immanent slaughter. Turned out they were wrong, Israel survived and most of the adults who fled Israel 60 years ago are now dead.

You're right, the figure is closer to 800,000. Some may have left on their own, but only someone completely devoid of objectivity would argue that Israelis did not burn, loot, and force any Palestinians out. Numerous Israelis have even written extensively on the subject.

Edited May 1, 2008 by BC_chick

[jbg]

So if Chinese or Muslim immigrants came to the US in huge numbers where one day they declared themselves the rulers of the land, you'd be a-okay with that.... as long as they make the place all nice?

Isn't that basically what happened? The original whitebread Mayflower descendants are now "ruled" by Italians, Irish, Jews, etc. in the US.

[Jerry Galinda]

Isn't that basically what happened? The original whitebread Mayflower descendants are now "ruled" by Italians, Irish, Jews, etc. in the US.

He “forgets” that Jews lived in e.g. Jerusalem -all the time.

That they have - historical rights - to this land (similar as a Palestinians).

Of course - they weren’t the majority inhabitants in e.g. XIX century.

The problem is that everybody has his Rights - but nobody has political will to real compromise.

Jews in Israel (Palestine) -are real fact - and Palestinians must “agree” with it.

[WIP]

So... many non-Muslims have felt the same way about hosting a different people vs. living under their rule. First Nations are a perfect example of that.

To be exact, the Arabs in Palestine and the bordering nations were not willing to allow Jews to rule themselves either! Some ended up under Israeli rule because of their bad habit of starting wars and proceeding to lose them each time!

Think also what would happen if the doom-filled prophecies of Muslims penetrating and taking over a land do come true in Canada or any other western nation. People would take up arms... and it would have absolutely zero to do with being a "homocidal Muslim" (your words which triggered this debate).

LIAR! That is a deliberate misquotation. You just pulled a couple of words out for the purpose of character assasination.

These were my exact words earlier:"It does beg the question: instead of being filled with homicidal jealousy, why isn't the Muslim World achieving academic greatness instead of achieving their aims through belligerence and aggression?" Apr 30 2008, 07:09 AM

Post #70

The common denominator in each of these scenarios is therefore human-nature, not Islam.

The common denominator is a religion that ultimately demands control of religious life, law and government, while making apostasy a capital offence. No doubt the religious authorities, who were considered backward and antiquated at the turn of the last century, had their hand strengthened by European invasions and attempts to control oil development and production; but ignoring the religion is ignoring the 800 pound gorilla that features Mullahs regularly calling for "martyrdom attacks" and teaching their children that Jews are apes and pigs. Just as religion was the foundation for European antisemitism that revisionists try to contend was a creation of Hitler and the Nazis, the same attitude exists among politically correct analysts of the Middle East, who are afraid to mention the religious leaders who incite racism and terrorism.

[WIP]

and not wanting to lose power is un-natural for Muslims but ok for all other folks? Is that the contention here?

Whether it's okay or not okay, the facts remain that the Arabs would not accept Jewish self-rule in the areas they controlled. The original plan drawn up by the British and rejected by the Arabs, didn't even include Jerusalem. The Western half of the city was gained in the war for Israeli independence.

[WIP]

Hmmm- I’m not sure if I understand You but from what I know - Germans lived in Pommern in Poland - all the time between First World War and WWII (as my family).They had farms, tenement houses, factories, schools, political parties and so on. In Bromberg almost 10 % inhabitants were Germans. Political emigration didn’t exist.

Germans were ethnic minority with all the laws of the Poland’s ordinary citizens. What’s more - they were good organized and usually wealthy -e.g. my family.

I couldn't find much information on the Polish Corridor except for this wikipedia article. It says the percentage of Germans living in the corridor dropped, but it doesn't say how much; and it has a chart of the numbers of Germans living in each county in 1921. According to the article, Germans who refused to switch to Polish citizenship were expelled, former public officials were denied the opportunity for Polish citizenship and subsequently expelled; and the properties of former German residents were confiscated. Doesn't sound to me like everything was exactly all hunky dory! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor

[Peter F]

Whether it's okay or not okay, the facts remain that the Arabs would not accept Jewish self-rule in the areas they controlled.

Okay. I'm not contesting that or trying to revise histyory. What I am contesting is your claim that Muslims are " filled with homicidal jealousy". I contend that statement is a disgusting attempt to demonize all Muslims as murderers. That "homicidal jealousy" is thier motiviation to not allow a jewish state.

Yet, you also direct us to the fact that Muslims allowed Jews to live under thier rule for centuries. Obviously "homicidal jealousy" was not functioning within muslims all those years....but suddenly in 1948 Muslims became homicidaly jealous and have remained so ever since.

Muslims have no other motivation but thier religion? Human emotions don't apply to Muslims?

You rightly point out that various Mullahs teach thier followers that jews are apes and pigs. You find that an undesireable aspect of Islam. Fine.Would it be okay then for these Mullahs to teach that Jews are homicidally jealous? Not just three jews,mind, but all Jews. That would be okay to describe why history unfolded as it has?

You're claims of what makes Muslims do what they do are complete bullshit.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Peter F

[socred]

Are you asking, are there nations where the State religion is a form of christianity?

I'm glad you asked that question.

There are about 19 nations whose sole official religion is "christian"

Thanks for asking.

That's not what I asked, so you did not answer my question.

Which country has the right of return for all Christians in the world?

[JB Globe]

Of course. It happens all the time. The modern Czech Republic includes some German-speaking people, for example. Canada has some French-speaking people.

The thing is, the Czech Republic and Canada aren't illegally occupying German communities and Quebec, as is the case with Israel. Both communities are part of a bi-national state, Palestinians are not - they are denied their self-determination, unlike Quebecois who could separate from Canada if a majority wanted to. They're both part of a bi-national state, unlike the Palestinians, who are even denied the right to create their own nation-state.

In addition, Quebecois and the Germans in Czech were there before the creation of either Canada or Czech - on the flipside, most Israelis were foreigners to the land when Israel was created. It was only in the past 30 years that a majority of Israelis have been born in Israel. It is a country that was created by foreigners in a region that was inhabited by another people for centuries.

Not the same - I think this comparison of yours is a little ridiculous.

Borders are, by their own definition, not perfect.

This doesn't excuse bad borders however - some borders are better than others.

It seems that your problems with self-determination denying other people their own self-determination begin and end with the Jewish state. This is typical thinking over the years.

Actually my problem stems from the fact that the Israeli occupation of Palestine is illegal under international law. That and it only increases violence against Israel, and is a barrier to Israel's prospects for peace.

Last post I made I asked you why you left out of your original post the fact that Israeli self-determination has come at the expense of Palestinian self-determination. You haven't answered that question so I'm going to have to make assumptions.

I'm going to have to assume that you are incapable of reconciling your Zionist-nationalist views with the fact that it conflicts with your support of the self-determination of all peoples, and you're choosing to ignore this fact. You're choosing to ignore that while you trumpet Israel's self-determination, you seek to deny the self-determination of Palestinians - even going as far as denying there is such a thing as a Palestinian nation, (because then, you can't be against Palestinian self-determination if there is no Palestine? Right? - How convenient).

[HisSelf]

(1) The lands on which Israel was formed was owned and controlled by the British Government following WW-I (starting in 1918) and prior to that had been part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The British did not want to make good their promised to the Jews of Europe and turned the lands over to the United Nations. The UN created two nations; Israel and Palestine. Local Arabs refused to accept Palestine and vowed to destroy Israel. They are still trying 60 years later.

The UN officially recognized the Nation of Israel in 1948 (moved by the US, seconded by Russia). It has never officially recognized a state called Palestine. A partitioned state has been proposed by the British and the UN. One was rejedted by the Jews, the other by the Arabs.

(2) Nowhere near a million Palestinians left Israel. Those who did leave, did so at the urging of neighboring nations who set out to destroy Israel in 1948 and told their countrymen to flee the immanent slaughter. Turned out they were wrong, Israel survived and most of the adults who fled Israel 60 years ago are now dead.

The majority of the Palestinian Arabs who left were driven out by armed Zionists insurgents who had suddenly morphed into the Israeli army on the founding of the State of Israel 1948. This urging of neighbouring nations bit has been magnified to cover that up.

[M.Dancer]

The UN officially recognized the Nation of Israel in 1948 (moved by the US, seconded by Russia). It has never officially recognized a state called Palestine. A partitioned state has been proposed by the British and the UN. One was rejedted by the Jews, the other by the Arabs.

The majority of the Palestinian Arabs who left were driven out by armed Zionists insurgents who had suddenly morphed into the Israeli army on the founding of the State of Israel 1948. This urging of neighbouring nations bit has been magnified to cover that up.

Zionist insurgents?

Who prey tell were they rising up against?

[socred]

The problem is that they make too-good tenants. Their adherence to local rules and laws is often perfect, as is their learning of weaknesses in those laws.

The Jews' relative valuation of education and the learned professions made them useful to their host societies, and also made them the object of envy. I would hardly call that making "bad tenants". How many "Air India" type events are the Jews involved in?

You just keep believing that fantasy. Just another Zionist lie.

Their seditious activities in the lands in which they lived is well documented. One only need look at the Csar in Russia, and which "group" started the communist revolution.

How many Christians were murdered by the communists in Russia?

[M.Dancer]

You just keep believing that fantasy. Just another Zionist lie.

Their seditious activities in the lands in which they lived is well documented. One only need look at the Csar in Russia, and which "group" started the communist revolution.

How many Christians were murdered by the communists in Russia?

You have done well memorizing your Stormfront talking points...

[socred]

Zionist insurgents?

Who prey tell were they rising up against?

The British.

Lehi (group)

More Zionist lies!

Soon the US will realize the seditious activities by the Zionists in their country. They try to hide incidents like the USS liberty or the arresting of Israeli spies in the US.

Edited May 2, 2008 by socred

[M.Dancer]

Soon the US will realize the seditious activities by the Zionists in their country.

what is your final solution?

[socred]

what is your final solution?

Nice try! I despise Nazism, and I do not condone murder.

I'm merely exposing Zionist lies.

[socred]

You have done well memorizing your Stormfront talking points...

I have nothing to do with such a stupid organization. The belief in a master race is as Zionist as a belief in a "chosen people".

Again, you cannot deny the validity of my arguments, so you attempt what is known as "ad-hominem".

More Zionist lies!

[White Doors]

I have nothing to do with such a stupid organization. The belief in a master race is as Zionist as a belief in a "chosen people".

Again, you cannot deny the validity of my arguments, so you attempt what is known as "ad-hominem".

More Zionist lies!

Is the Holocaust a zionist lie too socred?

Edited May 2, 2008 by White Doors

[BC_chick]

Isn't that basically what happened? The original whitebread Mayflower descendants are now "ruled" by Italians, Irish, Jews, etc. in the US.

Yes, it is jbg. Europeans came to the Americas and were welcomed at first. As their numbers grew and their desire to be the rulers of the land became evident, a bloody battle ensued. History would have us believe the violent battle for the land continued on for centuries before the First Nations accepted their fate. Today, after many many centuries, they are finally trying other means to regain their land, ie, going to court over treaties etc.

At this point I would like to remind you that it was me who was arguing that it's human-nature - and not radical Islam - which makes humans fight for their land when they perceive their guests to be trying to rule over them. You, amongst others, were arguing that it's some sort of Muslim deficiency that makes Palestinians fight as they do for what they see as their land - the place they have ruled over for centuries.

I have no idea how you argue in court... but your concession to the similarity in the two scenarios just strengthened my argument. Hope you argue better than that in front of a real judge.

Oh, and you never did answer the question, you just answered it with another question.

I ask again:

Would you forgive Muslim or Chinese immigrants' declaring themselves rulers of the USA (once their numbers are big enough) so long as they make the place "better"?

(I do not want your response as the conqueror, I'm asking what you would do if you were the conquered)

Edited May 2, 2008 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

To be exact, the Arabs in Palestine and the bordering nations were not willing to allow Jews to rule themselves either! Some ended up under Israeli rule because of their bad habit of starting wars and proceeding to lose them each time!

LIAR! That is a deliberate misquotation. You just pulled a couple of words out for the purpose of character assasination.

These were my exact words earlier:"It does beg the question: instead of being filled with homicidal jealousy, why isn't the Muslim World achieving academic greatness instead of achieving their aims through belligerence and aggression?" Apr 30 2008, 07:09 AM

Post #70

Please. "Homocidal jealousy in the Muslim world" and "homocidal Muslims" are what? In the end, you are calling them homocidal, only that you are ascribing a reason to it (jealousy).

Nice try on the semantics game though.

As for not allowing the Jews self-determination in other places? How does that refute anything?

My point which nobody likes to even attempt to rebut (I guess it's impossible isn't it?) was that people of all races and religions fight with all means necessary when their guests declare themselves rulers of the land in which they had continually ruled for centuries.

This is not a homocidal Muslim attribute - oh, sorry, I mean homocidal jealousy which is particular to Muslims.

The common denominator is a religion that ultimately demands control of religious life, law and government, while making apostasy a capital offence. No doubt the religious authorities, who were considered backward and antiquated at the turn of the last century, had their hand strengthened by European invasions and attempts to control oil development and production; but ignoring the religion is ignoring the 800 pound gorilla that features Mullahs regularly calling for "martyrdom attacks" and teaching their children that Jews are apes and pigs. Just as religion was the foundation for European antisemitism that revisionists try to contend was a creation of Hitler and the Nazis, the same attitude exists among politically correct analysts of the Middle East, who are afraid to mention the religious leaders who incite racism and terrorism.

I ask again, was it some sort of religion "that ultimately demands control of religious life, law and government, while making apostasy a capital offence" that made the First Nations fight for their land when they realised that the Europeans whom they'd welcomed were actually here to take control of it and rule over it?

(you like the direct quote there btw?)

How about if Chinese immigrants in Canada surpass the 50% mark and take up arms and declare themselves ruler of the land ... is it the religion "that ultimately demands control of religious life, law and government, while making apostasy a capital offence" that would have us trying to fight with all means possible to keep Canada out of their hands... or human nature?

Edited May 2, 2008 by BC_chick

[Jerry Galinda]

I couldn't find much information on the Polish Corridor except for this wikipedia article. It says the percentage of Germans living in the corridor dropped, but it doesn't say how much; and it has a chart of the numbers of Germans living in each county in 1921. According to the article, Germans who refused to switch to Polish citizenship were expelled, former public officials were denied the opportunity for Polish citizenship and subsequently expelled; and the properties of former German residents were confiscated. Doesn't sound to me like everything was exactly all hunky dory! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor

It says the percentage of Germans living in the corridor dropped,

That’s true.

1.Some people emigrated - connected with Prussians administration (soldiers, civil servants, teachers and so on) - they gradually lost their job . They can’t be employment - because they didn’t know national language. It’s obvious.

“Former public officials were not accepted as Polish citizens and had to leave the area

Sorry - I don’t know - true or false.

But as I said before - they earlier or later lost their job in NEW government administration (but not in local administration - from what I know). It’s logical.

2.Some people emigrated because they didn’t want live in another country - they didn’t want to be citizens another country.

(“ethnic Germans, unwilling to change their citizenship into Polish, had to leave” - it’s rather possible and obvious) ,

3.Some people emigrated because of lesser level of life.

Poland was poorer country than Germany.

Miracle in economy doesn’t exist.

4.Some people - particularly from mixture families “changed” their nationalities. One day they were Germans - next day - they “discover” that they are Poles . LOL

It’s obvious on the borderlands with mixture population.

5. Next “problem” - Kashub - ethnic group. According with Polish statistics - polish ethnic group -but I suspect that according with German statistics - German tribe.

Gunter Grass - German famous writer is Kashub and D.Tusk- - currently Polish PM (Prime Minister) is Kashub.

Klaus Kinski (famous German actor) - was born Nikolaus Karl Günther Nakszynski in Zoppot, Free City of Danzig (today Sopot in Poland). His parents were Bruno Nakszynski, a German pharmacist of Polish origin, and Susanne Lutze, a German pastor's daughter from Danzig.

6.Generally it is as a kind of domino - such game,

7.And so on, so on.

and the properties of former German residents were confiscated’

hmmmm - sorry - but I don’t know - what does it mean ?

It’s rather obvious that property of ex-Prussian administration (but not communal property) - part of buildings of schools, all barracks, fortification of Thorn and Graudenz and so on - were property of New administration - Polish administration. It’s rather logical.

Sometimes Wikipedia isn’t the best source of information.

I “checked” only some passages. Obviously my notices doesn’t finish the problem.

Btw. Many Germans - citizenships of Germany - had factories and coalmines (Silesia) and so on in the interwar era, in Poland.

As I said before - I’m afraid that it’s a little more sophisticated problem.

[socred]

Is the Holocaust a zionist lie too socred?

There are certainly elements of the holocaust that are being promoted by Zionist causes that are either outright lies, or half-truths. Certainly events leading up to the holocaust are not as portrayed by many supporting the Zionist cause.

Were Jews killed by the Nazis during WWII - absolutely!

However; German "anti-semitism" was not the result of German jealously towards the Jews. That's an outright lie! Germans welcomed the Jews prior to WWII, and that's why there were so many living there. It was seditious activities by the Jews, especially pertaining to communism at the time that led to the trouble. I do not condone for one second what the Nazis did, but to say that the Nazis only wanted to kill Jews is another lie. The Nazis tried to push them out, like the British did, but nobody would take them. The minister of immigration for Canada is quoted as having said "no Jews are too many" (or something along those lines), when Canada was asked by the Nazis to take the Jews. Churchill himself said Jews were "partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer."

Personally, I don't ever want to see an event such as the holocaust ever again, but the activities of Zionists in the US could lead to that, and the fact that all the Jews in the world are gathering to a small piece of land in the Middle East gives me serious reservations, because it's not Jewish leadership under the flag of Zionism that will suffer. It will be ordinary Jews whos only "culpability" was being stupid enough to follow that leadership.

Edited May 2, 2008 by socred

[HisSelf]

The British.

That's right. Palestine was Britain's Iraq/Vietnam. The Brits just got tired of having their boys come home in body bags. Especially on the heels of WWII. They ran out on the sorry mess they created and the s**t is still hitting the fan 60 years later.

I was being kind when I used the word insurgent. In fact they were terrorists, in every sense of the word. The blowing up of the King David Hotel by Itzhak Shamir's group remains one of the single biggest (in terms of body count) acts of terrorism in the Middle East, even today. By the way, that's the same Itzhak Shamir who went on to become Prime Minister of Israel.