DogOnPorch Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Oh...and that post was asking where has the US come to Israel's aid directly rather than just giving aid. Sorry to be confusing. You're free to point out where they have. ---------------------------------------------- Well...can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The quassams are counter-productive, the empty threats are too - hot air all of it. Israel knows this, plays on it and sadly wins. The empty threat has killed 13 people including 3 children, injured 100s and destroyed $100,000s of property. The qassams have no military value and are purely used as a terror weapns against civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) I'm sure when the US Military comes to Israel's direct military aid they'll deal with those rockets. Like they did back in...back in the year...can you remember the year? I'm sure someone can point out the year... ------------------------------------------------ Our society is illuminated by the spiritual insights of the Hebrew prophets. America and Israel have a common love of human freedom, and they have a common faith in a democratic way of life. ---LBJ Edited May 9, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The United States is free to provide economic, military, and humanitarian aid to any nation, particularly allies, and continues to do so. With respect to Israel, the US has provided direct and indirect military support several times, but you won't read about it in the Globe & Mail. The US and Israel enjoy mutual strategic and tactical military benefits in the region, particularly for special forces operations. This was evident during the Cold War, when the Soviet Union could not provide a protective umbrella for its client states (Israel's enemies) because of US interventions. Foreign military sales (FMS) also includes Israel....as well as Canada, which flies the CF-188 (CF-18). Canada even tried to buy Iran's shiny new American made F-14's at a cut rate price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I don't usually respond to you - as you're not worth it.However I would love to see WHERE anyone here has been a Jew hater. I'm waiting.... Unless of course you equate every single Jew on the planet with the actions of the Israeli Admin. Do you????? What a joke Sharky boy. Buffy I have come on this forum and you know it and defended your right to say I am wrong and stated in my opinion you are not intentionally trying to hate anyone. If anything I think its because you are so idealistic you engage in some remarks I personally disagree with and find mistaken. But that is our differences of opinion. I do find some others though do make the kinds of comments that show they have strong preconceived views as to Israel and Jews for that matter that exhibit intolerance and I think that is what Sharky is referring to. For example Ms. Buffy. You made a good point that Hamas should engage in peaceful political behaviour. But then where I disagree with you is when you then turned that partisan and in my opinion devalued it by showing a bias by suggesting Israel will kill innocent peaceful individuals and "wins" when its citizens die. I mean think about it Buffy you suggested Israel wins when it sees its people die by terrorist attacks or get shot at by missiles. That is precisely the kind of comment that reflects your bias and can be misconstrued as hateful. It may sound worse then you intended. Maybe you meant engaging in terror gets Israel sympathy which is cunter-productive to what Hamas needs to do if it is to win its propaganda war. Or maybe you actually meant it, that Israel likes it and thinks its a good thing its people die. Who knows. All I know is Israel does not win when its people are attacked or when innocent Palestinians are hurt and again I criticize you rendering this dispute as a pissing match or a football score. Its not. The reality is no one "wins" ever in such disputes except terrorists. Instead of coaching Hamas how to win a propaganda war, why not just speak of alternatives to violence they can pursue as you first started and avoid the rest to maintain a credible stance. The latter part of your comments sound like a cheap and nasty shot at Israel for defending itself against terror and deliebrtely blurring that with what happens to innocent Palestinians. If you really care about Palestinians you don't help them with such analysis. Turning Israel into the bad guy demon will not help Palestinians. All it does is empower Hamas to keep Palestinians captive and condemn them to a vicious cycle of tit for tat. Let us talk of peaceful measures both sides can engage in. I think that is what Sharky was getting at. I promise you Sharky is not engaged in a Zionist conspiracy with me. I am not even sure if he knows what A Hollywood Producer looks like or knows why Montreal bagels are the hope for humanity. Shark sounds like a Legal name not Zionist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The United States is free to provide economic, military, and humanitarian aid to any nation, particularly allies, and continues to do so. With respect to Israel, the US has provided direct and indirect military support several times, but you won't read about it in the Globe & Mail. The US and Israel enjoy mutual strategic and tactical military benefits in the region, particularly for special forces operations. This was evident during the Cold War, when the Soviet Union could not provide a protective umbrella for its client states (Israel's enemies) because of US interventions.Foreign military sales (FMS) also includes Israel....as well as Canada, which flies the CF-188 (CF-18). Canada even tried to buy Iran's shiny new American made F-14's at a cut rate price. True in that sense. America's efforts kept the Soviets from directly aiding the Arabs on the ground back in 1973. Both sides were raising the DEFCOM in Yom Kippur's honor...Israel being defacto NATO and the Arabs defacto Warsaw Pact players in the Big Game. In the meantime, Brezhnev sent Nixon a letter in the middle of the night of October 23–24. In that letter, Brezhnev proposed that American and Soviet contingents be dispatched to ensure both sides honor the cease-fire. He also threatened that "I will say it straight that if you find it impossible to act jointly with us in this matter, we should be faced with the necessity urgently to consider taking appropriate steps unilaterally. We cannot allow arbitrariness on the part of Israel." In short, the Soviets were threatening to intervene in the war on Egypt's side.The Soviets placed seven airborne divisions on alert and airlift was marshalled to transport them to the Middle East. An airborne command post was set up in the southern Soviet Union. Several air force units were also alerted. "Reports also indicated that at least one of the divisions and a squadron of transport planes had been moved from the Soviet Union to an airbase in Yugoslavia". The Soviets also deployed seven amphibious warfare craft with some 40,000 naval infantry in the Mediterranean. The message arrived after Nixon had gone to bed. Kissinger immediately called a meeting of senior officials, including Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, CIA Director William Colby, and White House Chief of Staff Alexander Haig. The Watergate scandal had reached its apex, and Nixon was so agitated and discomposed that they decided to handle the matter without him: "When Kissinger asked Haig whether [Nixon] should be wakened, the White House chief of staff replied firmly 'No.' Haig clearly shared Kissinger's feelings that Nixon was in no shape to make weighty decisions." The meeting produced a conciliatory response, which was sent (in Nixon's name) to Brezhnev. At the same time, it was decided to increase the Defense Condition (DEFCON) from four to three. Lastly, they approved a message to Sadat (again, in Nixon's name) asking him to drop his request for Soviet assistance, and threatening that if the Soviets were to intervene, so would the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War -------------------------------------------------- Well, boys, I reckon this is it - nuclear combat toe to toe with the Roosskies. ---Major T. J. "King" Kong: Dr Strangelove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 True in that sense. America's efforts kept the Soviets from directly aiding the Arabs on the ground back in 1973. Both sides were raising the DEFCOM in Yom Kippur's honor...Israel being defacto NATO and the Arabs defacto Warsaw Pact players in the Big Game. Yep...'73 was a very exciting time in the Med...the US was ready to send Soviet boats to the bottom, and gave Brezhnev position coordinates to prove it. I remember the briefings at Rota. This was the continuation of a growing relationship with mutual benefits for both Israel and the US/NATO compared to the strain of the Suez Crisis or USS Liberty attack from years before. It became more and more evident that Israel would and could be an eager, self motivated ally for US interests in the region, and this continues through today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 You were USN BC2004? Or other...USMC? Indeed it must have got the old heart rate up. That was as close as Cuba to becoming hot and most of the world slept through it...like Nixon. ------------------------- And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks. ---Isaiah 16:18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 You were USN BC2004? Or other...USMC? Indeed it must have got the old heart rate up. That was as close as Cuba to becoming hot and most of the world slept through it...like Nixon. I was USN....a bubblehead (subs). I think you have characterized that time well....leave the details to Doktor K. Since losing the exigencies of the Cold War, every Tom, Dick, and Jane has time (and the inclination) to bloviate about even the most minor of dust ups. The Soviets were ruthless bastards, but not unreasonable in the great chess game. I miss them (sigh.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I'm impressed. Hunter or missleboat? ------------------------------------ I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea. ---H.G. Wells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Oh and I agree in that I also kind of miss the Soviets. At least we knew they didn't want to die in nuclear fires...the new guys...not so sure. -------------------------------------- A great calamity is as old as the trilobites an hour after it has happened. ---Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Do you really NEED someone to point out the relationship wrt military aid and such between Israel and the US??Really??? LMAO Man, you are one deluded mofo. Hi five, babe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I'm impressed. Hunter or missleboat? Both....and one special little deep diving diesel electric. You seem to have a thorough understanding and interest in such matters with proper historical context....I'm impressed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Uh, so any particular reason today that your panties are in a twist? Oh, thats right, a few people had the nerve to disagree with you about your favorite race to hate, the Israelis.You still can't name a military action in which the US fought along side of Israel. Oh man. The anti-semite card. This reminds me of what the police do when they beat somebody up and then charge them with assaulting a police officer. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 What Hamas really needs to do, and granted they are trying - but still have a ways to go - is to become far more organized and sophisticated wrt their political aims. For example, when they tried to organize a peaceful march on the Erez crossing, only about 10,000 people showed up (still good - but more are needed). I am in agreement with Dr. Finkelstein, when he advocates a peaceful advance on the border - or against the wall. No doubt - some demonstrators will lose their lives, but after 10, 50, then 100 have been killed indiscriminately - well that is certainly something that the Israeli Admin cannot lie or pr herself out of. The quassams are counter-productive, the empty threats are too - hot air all of it. Israel knows this, plays on it and sadly wins. Hamas, has however certainly grown up a bit recently. They have maintained ceasefires, are attempting to riegn in the more extreme of the jihadist groups present in Gaza and have NO problem offering a ceasefire or hudna to Israel (in reality though - this is the last thing that the hardliners in Israel want). Which is bad for all people of both lands. I cannot help but compare Hamas to Haganah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Both....and one special little deep diving diesel electric. You seem to have a thorough understanding and interest in such matters with proper historical context....I'm impressed! I try to keep up...lol. Like you, I lived through that era and remember what actually happened as opposed to what some revisonists present to us these days. Deep diver?...like Alvin deep? Guess not quite that deep w/ a diesel engine attached...lol. That's cool re: the other subs. Polaris or Trident? -------------------------------------------------- It's just chewing gum folks...no need for alarm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I try to keep up...lol. Like you, I lived through that era and remember what actually happened as opposed to what some revisonists present to us these days. Revisionist is not a bad word when it comes to the Middle East... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spicy.Pringles Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 It seems to me that when Israel was founded in 1948 it just took over the whole country of Palestine leaving Palestine with only two little slivers of land that aren't even connected. This doesn't seem very fair to me. Before the creation of Israel Jews, Muslims and Christians lived side by side by side in peace and would even intermarry with each other. The creation of Israel has seemingly destroyed this peace. The Jews are the only people on the planet that are officially recognized as a race and a religion. They often claim that they are a "chosen people" but there is no holy book claim of this. The Bible claims that the Jews were cast out of Israel and cursed to have no home due to the crucifixion of Christ and renouncing him. I'm neither wrong nor right it is just an observation and opinion. I would actually like to see them live together like we do in Canada. Israel should be multicultural like Canada. We have many races here and everything is ok why not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) I try to keep up...lol. Like you, I lived through that era and remember what actually happened as opposed to what some revisonists present to us these days. It's cool....one is not a "US lackey" either way by remembering policies and actions in true context. Somebody has to be a credible military/historical reference around here...may as well be you. You pretty much call 'em as you see 'em. Deep diver?...like Alvin deep? Guess not quite that deep w/ a diesel engine attached...lol. That's cool re: the other subs. Polaris or Trident? I started with Polaris A-3 on the USS George Washington, then Poseidon C-3 on several Lafayette/Franklin class boats, and finally Trident C-4 on backfitted Lafayettes and Ohio class. Two stints on SSNs were in Cold War "workhorse" 637's (Sturgeon's) and the Narwhal. We pulled into Haifa on more than one occasion to fix broken kit....it's good to have allies! The deep diving sub was USS Dolphin with hemispherical hull heads that went classified crazy deep. It was decommissioned in 2006....DBF! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dolphin_(AGSS-555) Edited May 9, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Very very impressive BC2004. My personal thanks for being in one of those tin cans for the rest of us when it really mattered. People just don't know... That USS Dolphin was around for a while! A real test-bed, I see. --------------------------------------- Neither the United States of America nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. ---JFK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Very very impressive BC2004. My personal thanks for being in one of those tin cans for the rest of us when it really mattered. People just don't know... It's a fair trade....today's scorn in trade for getting the job done. Recall that President Reagan thanked PM Mulroney for Canada's role during the Cold War. We even tested our secret sensors and weapons systems up at the Nanoose range in Canada. That USS Dolphin was around for a while! A real test-bed, I see. The Dolphin was part of the DevGru Squadron of deep submersibles (DSRV, Trieste, etc.).....and completely defenseless (no weapons) except for depth stratum. The fun part about that boat was that it wasn't a nuke, so all of Rickover's strict (and necessary) rules didn't apply. We always had a mothership escort to protect us from the snooping Soviet trawlers (AGI). One day we used a clothes hangar and some tin foil to fashion a new TOP SECRET "sensor" for the Soviet cameras! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 (edited) One day we used a clothes hangar and some tin foil to fashion a new TOP SECRET "sensor" for the Soviet cameras! lol... The fun part about that boat was that it wasn't a nuke, so all of Rickover's strict (and necessary) rules didn't apply. I imagine the rules on an SSN were quite restrictive. It wouldn't be at all like the ol' Das Boot 'see if it breaks before we fix' type style of running a ship. Well...unless you're Russian. I suppose. Sounds like Rickover was the father of modern submarine warfare. The George Washington...were you there for the collision or was that later on in its tour of duty? ----------------------------------------------------------- It is a human inclination to hope things will work out, despite evidence or doubt to the contrary. A successful manager must resist this temptation... ---Admiral Hyman Rickover Edited May 10, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 We even tested our secret sensors and weapons systems up at the Nanoose range in Canada. Yes...that's where I saw that old SkipJack. ---------------------------- They won't catch us this time! Not this time! They haven't spotted us! No, they're all snoring in their bunks! Or, you know what? They're drinking at the bar, celebrating our sinking! Not yet, my friends. Not yet! ---Capt Thomsen: Das Boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 lol... I imagine the rules on an SSN were quite restrictive. It wouldn't be at all like the ol' Das Boot 'see if it breaks before we fix' type style of running a ship. Well...unless you're Russian. I suppose. Sounds like Rickover was the father of modern submarine warfare. The George Washington...were you there for the collision or was that later on in its tour of duty? Ah yes...Das Boot....the best submarine movie ever made....best heard in native German, not the English dub. I'm waiting for the BluRay version! No, I was long gone by the time of that collision (1981), a very black mark for the US silent service. The Russian boats were death traps....less nuclear shielding (weight) for higher speed. Noisy as hell until the Victor III's....that's how we were able to sit in trail for days or weeks in the Med. "Blind Man's Bluff" is a good book on Cold War cat and mouse games. Israel has ramped up her capabilities with Dolphin class diesel-electrics from Germany. A diesel on the battery is very difficult to detect. They are way ahead of Iran in having a survivable first and second strike nuclear capability, if they had the weapons (wink wink). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I'm a big fan of the sub movies as well. Roger that re: Das Boot (uncut) being the best version. There was apparently even a longer version of it on German television. Ever try those Silent Hunter submarine simulators? They're pretty impressive. SH III is Atlantic while SH IV is Pacific. At hard levels you need to do all the angle on the bow calcs, etc, yourself. --------------------------------------------- Lt. Jim Bledsoe: If you should fail, and somehow come out of this alive, there won't be a desk small enough for you this time. Commander Richardson: That's strange, Jim. I never even thought of failing. ---Run Silent, Run Deep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.