CBC Orchestra - Why?

[August1991]

The last notes of the Vancouver-based CBC Radio Orchestra will be heard at the end of the fall concert season in November.

The decision to disband the orchestra — formed in 1938 when radio orchestras were common — comes down to dollars and cents, a CBC executive in Vancouver said Thursday.

"We know for example that for a concert that we fund through our CBC Radio Orchestra, we can extend our reach to three by doing it through other musical organizations," said Jennifer McGuire, executive director of CBC English Radio.

The orchestra, the last of its kind in North America with 32 CDs to its credit, has helped to showcase Canadian composers, musicians and Canadian content, much loved by classical music fans.

McGuire said the money saved could be used more efficiently by spending it on other CBC Radio 2 musical programs.

CBC

On CBC radio, I heard a woman (violinist in this orchestra) complain about its demise - she was crying. Her husband and son were also musicians in the same orchestra.

First, what kind of organization allows one family to have so many posts - at taxpayer expense? (How did her husband an dson get the job?)

Second, what kind of organization relies on taxes to exist?

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I'm willing to go along with a taxpayer funded Radio-Canada/CBC talk radio. But in a world of MP3s, why am I paying for a full-fledged classical orchestra in Vancouver? Vancouver? Why not Halifax, where it's cheaper to live?

It is terrifying to know that some musicians just don't understand what is happening. They expect taxpayers to pay their livelihood.

[jdobbin]

Second, what kind of organization relies on taxes to exist?

Are you speaking about the CBC because the orchestra was not directly funded by taxpayers. It was funded by the CBC.

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I'm willing to go along with a taxpayer funded Radio-Canada/CBC talk radio. But in a world of MP3s, why am I paying for a full-fledged classical orchestra in Vancouver? Vancouver? Why not Halifax, where it's cheaper to live?

It is terrifying to know that some musicians just don't understand what is happening. They expect taxpayers to pay their livelihood.

There used to be CBC orchestras in many Canadian cities including Halifax. All of them were eventually cut in favour of other programming. As many know, CBC Radio Two is also getting out of predominantly classical music.

As far as how one family got so many of it members in one orchestra, it is not usual for an organization to have married couples and then children go into the same business. There are several orchestras, ballet troupes and theatre groups where there are married couples working and in some cases their children are working as well.

I guess you could kind of think it like politics where you see Paul Martin, Paul Martin Jr. and Elmer Mackay and Peter MacKay. How is that a taxpayer supported organization can allow families to be on the dole like this?

Edited March 29, 2008 by jdobbin

[Oleg Bach]

Are you speaking about the CBC because the orchestra was not directly funded by taxpayers. It was funded by the CBC.

----

There used to be CBC orchestras in many Canadian cities including Halifax. All of them were eventually cut in favour of other programming. As many know, CBC Radio is two is also getting out of predominantly classical music.

As far as how one family got so many of it members in one orchestra, it is not usual for an organization to have married couples and then children go into the same business. There are several orchestras, ballet troupes and theatre groups where there are married couples working and in some cases their children are working as well.

I guess you could kind of think it like politics where you see Paul Martin, Paul Martin Jr. and Elmer Mackay and Peter MacKay. How is that a taxpayer supported organization can allow families to be on the dole like this?

The investment of acedemics and acedemic useless culture in funding an Orchestra - that plays dead peoples music - and as we know these acedemics don't have to pay dead writers....typical of CBC - and they don't actually have to support real cutting edge artists...other than ---oh yah - remember that silly talentless lunitic - what's his name - the one that wore heavey over coats in summer and was afraid of germs -...I remember - GLENN Gould..who could not even carry a melody let alone write one....CBC is an insitution and is instutionalized in it's thinking - just full of old gay men who would be unemployed with out tax money - and aging female journalist who are wacked out Trotskyite feminist eccentric nuts - I say collapse the place and privatize it.

[BubberMiley]

CBC

But in a world of MP3s, why am I paying for a full-fledged classical orchestra in Vancouver?

You're not. Disbanded means it no longer exists.

[jazzer]

oh yah - remember that silly talentless lunitic - what's his name - the one that wore heavey over coats in summer and was afraid of germs -...I remember - GLENN Gould..who could not even carry a melody let alone write one.

My, how much you have to learn.

[Keepitsimple]

I didn't even know there was still a CBC Orchestra. I thought it was disbanded decades ago. I could see where it once served a purpose back in the days when radio was the main media but heck, almost every major city has some version of a "Philharmonic Orchestra". This would seem to be long, long, long overdue.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[Cameron]

Best comment comes from the Vancouver Sun...

"What the CBC is doing to their mandate is what [u.S. president George] Bush is doing to the [u.S.] constitution."

Link

[capricorn]

Best comment comes from the Vancouver Sun...

Hey, gotta get that anti-American jab in there somewhere. I mean, cutting an age-old CBC money sucking sink hole is Bush-like. Dontcha just love the analogy?

[Alta4ever]

Hey, gotta get that anti-American jab in there somewhere. I mean, cutting an age-old CBC money sucking sink hole is Bush-like. Dontcha just love the analogy?

When its the only tradition that links Canadians together, you gotta fit in the American bashing where ever you can.

[msj]

The investment of acedemics and acedemic useless culture in funding an Orchestra - that plays dead peoples music - and as we know these acedemics don't have to pay dead writers....typical of CBC - and they don't actually have to support real cutting edge artists...other than ---oh yah - remember that silly talentless lunitic - what's his name - the one that wore heavey over coats in summer and was afraid of germs -...I remember - GLENN Gould..who could not even carry a melody let alone write one....CBC is an insitution and is instutionalized in it's thinking - just full of old gay men who would be unemployed with out tax money - and aging female journalist who are wacked out Trotskyite feminist eccentric nuts - I say collapse the place and privatize it.

I was thinking just how much of this quote would apply to Churches (Jew/Christians/Muslims).

Lets rewrite it just for fun:

The investment of religion and religion useless culture in funding a church - that worships dead people [well, okay, maybe god ain't dead, and even Jesus was resurrected] - and as we know these priests/rabbis/mullahs don't have to pay dead writers ... typical of Rome/Mecca/Jerusalem - and they don't actually have to support real cutting edge martyrs...other than --- oh yeah - remember that silly talentless lunatic - what's his name - the one that had many wives and was afraid of the government - ... I remember - DAVID KORESH [or Jesus Christ or Jerry Falwell or ...] ... who could not even carry a sermon let alone write one...Religion is an institution and is institutionalized in it thinking - just full of old gay men who would be unemployed with out tax money...

But seriously, there is such a thing as cutting edge classical music and commissions have been given over the years to develop Canadian talent.

Just because most of the people on this forum are unable to appreciate this (or appreciate the stuff written by "dead people") doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile pursuit.

Unfortunately, the CBC wants to go after a younger audience and will end up filling the airwaves with most of the same "popular" music that can already be heard elsewhere (or downloaded).

Yeah, what a great use of tax dollars - play what people can already hear elsewhere.

May as well cut CBC's funding to nothing now and get it over with.

Oh, and lets end the tax exempt status for churches and end their charitable donation status - if we're not willing to support dead musicians then we should not be supporting dead prophets.

[Alta4ever]

I was thinking just how much of this quote would apply to Churches (Jew/Christians/Muslims).

Lets rewrite it just for fun:

The investment of religion and religion useless culture in funding a church - that worships dead people [well, okay, maybe god ain't dead, and even Jesus was resurrected] - and as we know these priests/rabbis/mullahs don't have to pay dead writers ... typical of Rome/Mecca/Jerusalem - and they don't actually have to support real cutting edge martyrs...other than --- oh yeah - remember that silly talentless lunatic - what's his name - the one that had many wives and was afraid of the government - ... I remember - DAVID KORESH [or Jesus Christ or Jerry Falwell or ...] ... who could not even carry a sermon let alone write one...Religion is an institution and is institutionalized in it thinking - just full of old gay men who would be unemployed with out tax money...

But seriously, there is such a thing as cutting edge classical music and commissions have been given over the years to develop Canadian talent.

Just because most of the people on this forum are unable to appreciate this (or appreciate the stuff written by "dead people") doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile pursuit.

Unfortunately, the CBC wants to go after a younger audience and will end up filling the airwaves with most of the same "popular" music that can already be heard elsewhere (or downloaded).

Yeah, what a great use of tax dollars - play what people can already hear elsewhere.

May as well cut CBC's funding to nothing now and get it over with.

Oh, and lets end the tax exempt status for churches and end their charitable donation status - if we're not willing to support dead musicians then we should not be supporting dead prophets.

How many times do we need to re-record the same music to be played on the radio, seems like a waste of resources.

[msj]

How many times do we need to re-record the same music to be played on the radio, seems like a waste of resources.

How many times do people have to hear a sermon from a priest/rabbi/mullah without going to the source (Torah, Old/New Testament and/or Koran).

Seems like a waste of resources.

[Alta4ever]

How many times do people have to hear a sermon from a priest/rabbi/mullah without going to the source (Torah, Old/New Testament and/or Koran).

Seems like a waste of resources.

People donate to keep the religious source open and active voluntarily it is not do by tax payers money, and before you argue the tax break line, it is only in the last 30 years or so that churches have become tax exempt.

Now donation to the CBC is manditory, they get it through taxes.

They do not have to survive on the merits of their work.

[msj]

People donate to keep the religious source open and active voluntarily it is not do by tax payers money, and before you argue the tax break line, it is only in the last 30 years or so that churches have become tax exempt.

Now donation to the CBC is manditory, they get it through taxes.

They do not have to survive on the merits of their work.

The number of years Churches have been exempt is irrelevant - the point is they are exempt.

As for donations - they are effectively a tax subsidy. If someone donates $1,000 he/she gets ~$390 in tax savings.

You honestly think that a person would give $1,000 if he/she wasn't going to get that money back?

Complete waste of resources. If you want to use your money for your church then fine - do it without the help of taxpayers.

[Alta4ever]

The number of years Churches have been exempt is irrelevant - the point is they are exempt.

As for donations - they are effectively a tax subsidy. If someone donates $1,000 he/she gets ~$390 in tax savings.

You honestly think that a person would give $1,000 if he/she wasn't going to get that money back?

Complete waste of resources. If you want to use your money for your church then fine - do it without the help of taxpayers.

Prior to Churches being tax exempt, you didn't get a tax subsidy for your donation. Not to mention that person still had a net loss of $610 and the $1000 is stii lout of pocket, the donation might just reduce the tax bill and not result in a refund), if we look at it from your persepctive.

When I donate to various organizations, I don't think about the tax implications, and I would bet most others don't either.

The government doesn't pay for religion (if people didn't donate the church would fail), but not the same for the CBC its tax payer funded, even if the majority of the public doesn't want it, the majority still has to pay, so the small minority can have it.

By the way I don't have a church, and I feel that all organizations can do without the help of the taxpayers, we should not be subsidzing anything.

[msj]

Prior to Churches being tax exempt, you didn't get a tax subsidy for your donation. Not to mention that person still had a net loss of $610 and the $1000 is stii lout of pocket, the donation might just reduce the tax bill and not result in a refund), if we look at it from your persepctive.

When I donate to various organizations, I don't think about the tax implications, and I would bet most others don't either.

The government doesn't pay for religion (if people didn't donate the church would fail), but not the same for the CBC its tax payer funded, even if the majority of the public doesn't want it, the majority still has to pay, so the small minority can have it.

By the way I don't have a church, and I feel that all organizations can do without the help of the taxpayers, we should not be subsidzing anything.

If that last statement is true then why are you defending the tax subsidy (however much smaller the degree is as compared to the CBC) to churches?

Either you're full of it and lying about what you feel or you're very bored.

Edited March 30, 2008 by msj

[Alta4ever]

If that last statement is true then why are you defending the tax subsidy (however much smaller the degree is as compared to the CBC) to churches?

Either you're full of it and lying about what you feel or you're very bored.

I wasn't defending the religious organizations tax subsidies, I was pointing out that people actively support the religious organizations through donations, and that they couldn't survive if the people that attended didn't donate. The CBC isn't the same if they had to rely on donations instead of taxpayer funding they would not survive in their current form.

I think that this should be the case will all organizations, they should never operate on the taxpayer dime or receive tax payer subidies, if what they provide is of value to the community, then private citizens will support it through charity.

[BubberMiley]

Hey, gotta get that anti-American jab in there somewhere. I mean, cutting an age-old CBC money sucking sink hole is Bush-like. Dontcha just love the analogy?

Actually, some Americans consider those who call criticism of Bush "anti-American" to be anti-American themselves.

[msj]

I wasn't defending the religious organizations tax subsidies, I was pointing out that people actively support the religious organizations through donations, and that they couldn't survive if the people that attended didn't donate. The CBC isn't the same if they had to rely on donations instead of taxpayer funding they would not survive in their current form.

I think that this should be the case will all organizations, they should never operate on the taxpayer dime or receive tax payer subidies, if what they provide is of value to the community, then private citizens will support it through charity.

Sure, and there have been many churches over the years that haven't survived even with the tax subsidies.

Take away the tax exempt status and charity donation tax credit and lets see how many churches survive.

I bet many would have significant problems if they just lost the donation tax credit and had to pay property taxes.

[Alta4ever]

Sure, and there have been many churches over the years that haven't survived even with the tax subsidies.

Take away the tax exempt status and charity donation tax credit and lets see how many churches survive.

I bet many would have significant problems if they just lost the donation tax credit and had to pay property taxes.

Now it sounds like you defending donation tax credits.

If it can't survive on its merit, it should survive.

[msj]

Now it sounds like you defending donation tax credits.

If it can't survive on its merit, it should survive.

Huh?

I clear stated: Take away the tax exempt status and charity donation tax credit and lets see how many churches survive.

How does that sound like I want to give Churches any donation credits? Especially in the context of my other posts.

Whether any organization can survive or not is its own problem.

But they should find a solution without the donation tax credit subsidy and without the tax exempt status (whether for income or property - funny how GST and sometimes even PST rear there heads into the finances though).

I have seen the finances of several churches so I know how close to the line some are.

At one time I was also involved in the local football (NFL rules) for kids (peewee and junior bantam). We survived (and the organization continues to survive) thanks to the hard work of about 20 people who fund raise, coach, and administer a program with no government money (well, except for the new fitness tax credit, I suppose - the government has to get its hands into everything you know).

Granted, this organization is tax exempt (as a NPO) but it never would truly make a profit anyway so that is a moot point.

[Alta4ever]

Now it sounds like you defending donation tax credits.

If it can't survive on its merit, it should survive.

I forgot the contraction it shouldn't survive.

I am of the firm belief that the government should not be in the business of proping up causes, non-profit organizations, and companies.

If it is truely needed and wanted society will suport it through volunteer effort, and donations. As for business the same goes it people really want it the will buy the good or service and those with good business practices will survive, those that don't, won't.

[DogOnPorch]

Shoulda canned a few fat cats at the top and kept the orchestra.

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Only sick music makes money today.

---Friedrich Nietzsche

[ZergZega]

I imagine that the CBC Orchestra musicians don't get paid particularly well. And the expense to the government (via the CBC) is negligible compared to Hockey Night In Canada, or even the Beijing Olympic coverage. But whatever, the CBC can do what it wants and disband the Orchestra, thinking it's out of date and unimportant. Personally I say keep the Orchestra, if only for my benefit. I get tired of listening to Nickleback, 50 Cent, and Britney all day.

[BubberMiley]

I am of the firm belief that the government should not be in the business of proping up causes, non-profit organizations, and companies.

So should the government sit and watch people foreclose on their homes in the U.S.? Do you realize that, once this process starts, other people's houses become worth less money, causing their banks to require them to back up their loans with more equity, causing these other people to foreclose...

What if, by propping something up, they save the overall economy? Are you still opposed?

(Not that the CBC orchestra was saving the economy.)