Muslim Immigration and Integration

[kengs333]

I'm going to give you a chance to clarify here, after all I clarified just before - because it seems like you're saying that organized crime and Islam are the same thing. A better comparison would be organized crime and ISLAMIC EXTREMISM. Both those things exist on the fringes, after all.

I don't need to clarify it at all because I've clearly stated my opinion. You are the one who likened Muslims to Italians, and then claimed that Italians got a bad rap because of some Italians being engaged in "organized crime". Islam, on the other hand, is something that ALL Muslims adhere to, to some degree; Islamic extremism is an extreme form of the Islamic faith, and the Islamic faith is something that ALL Muslims adhere to. Islamic extremism and "Italian organized crime" are NOT comparable; being an "Italian organized criminal" is not an extreme form of being a decent, hard-working Italian.

[eyeball]

Can't everyone just agree that extremism and organized crime are wrong and leave it at that?

Getting back to the subject, should Canada encourage a disproportionate number of people from a culture with a long history of equality between the sexes and getting along with other cultures? What's more important, your willingness to get along with everyone or where you come from?

[kuzadd]

I don't need to clarify it at all because I've clearly stated my opinion. You are the one who likened Muslims to Italians, and then claimed that Italians got a bad rap because of some Italians being engaged in "organized crime". Islam, on the other hand, is something that ALL Muslims adhere to, to some degree; Islamic extremism is an extreme form of the Islamic faith, and the Islamic faith is something that ALL Muslims adhere to. Islamic extremism and "Italian organized crime" are NOT comparable; being an "Italian organized criminal" is not an extreme form of being a decent, hard-working Italian.

All muslims may adhere to Islam as you claim, but then again we don't even know if that is correct , they may not adhere, they may follow or may not. You know like "christians" who show up at church on Sunday, and swear up and down they are christians but, then do all sorts of non-christian things. Ya know like be judgemental and hate they neighbours?! Stuff like that!

But even if they follow Islam, it does not mean they are all extremists. If you assume they all are which clearly you do then you assume quite wrongly, and are following the exact ideology that got all Italians labelled as criminals , because the extreme minority were in the mafia.

Christians just want to convert everyone, they have no real respect or appreciation of diversity, amongst their fellow man. Peruse some of the christian websites, Islam must be eradicated and everyone converted to christianity. This is what all this nonsense is about and what it has always been about. The footsoldiers of the church of christ and I use this term so loosely, have to believe the garbage preached at them, and do their duty. Hence we see Argus, Jefferiah, and other fundamentalist type "christians" espousing hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views. This has always been the name of the game with "religion" he who converts the most has the most power and the most money.

Same baloney as always, and yet, these are supposed to be enlightened times ???, LOL!!!!!

http://answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm

What is the best way to convert a Christian to Islam?

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030630/

should christians convert muslims

In africa the so called "christians" are busily converting , converting , converting, and making trouble also, but hey, gotta get those numbers up. So onward march the christian salespeople, making their pitch for their faith.

The more we delude ourselves things have changed, the more they are exactly the same.

Jesus refused to curse non-believers:

Jesus' teachings were rejected by the inhabitants of a village in Samaria. His disciples asked that he exterminate the people of the village by issuing a curse. Jesus refused to do it, and simply move on to the next village.

Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

Jesus's follower's then as Jesus's followers now? Just as unenlightened.

Edited March 14, 2008 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Ok, so if you opt for it that way, it simply means your comparison is meaningless.

Good day Kuzadd.

or your concept of worship is meaningless!

[mikedavid00]

yes, he is sure about that, because he just did it and likely does it often.

It has been generally acceptable to abuse Italians.

I guess the question becomes 'why'.

Mainstreme left Canadian women on the wedding forums looking for wedding dress stores specifying they do not want Italian owned businesses and no one has a problem with that.

Then there was our ex-minister of immigration trying to run for leader of the Liberal party and they openly said that he was not 'Canadian' enough. It fell on def ears. Imagine they said that to a Sikh or Muslim Liberal member?

How has it become socially acceptable?

That's easy. It's the Italians themselves who make it socially acceptable. Not me, or you, but the Italians. The South Asians and Muslims (mostly more south asians) have defined themselves as a fragile baby just waiting to cry if they get held the wrong way. Thus they have to be babied.

The onus is on them to integrate, not on us to integrate them.

The fact that we can tease Italians, and, to a lesser extent Chinese, shows that they integrate better IMO.

The fact that we cannot say the same about Muslims, south Asians, and Natives show that they are less integrated and chooes THEMSELVES not to integrate.

Instead they create a political vacuum within Canada and create pockets in Canada which IMO, if left unchecked will attempt to seperate from Canada many decades from now. They try to make themselves into these special status Canadians as to where Italians, and other historic immigrants did not.

As long as our Parlementary system stays intact, they will always be pandered to for votes.

[mikedavid00]

I work with and am surrounded by Italians everyday. Plenty of our clients are , (oops almost used the without papers word that I hear from Italians everyday) Italian. There is plenty of racial teasing and name calling that occurs in this office on a daily basis.And not one person minds.It goes both ways. I probably get called a cake twice as much as I call them any derogatory name.

For those who don't live in Toronto or have never been here, the above is an *excellent* depection of how people treat each other socially here and the reason why I call Toronto the most racist city in the world.

While no one is getting upset in the above scenario, it's the above that promotes racism and segregations between people that should all be working together.

Everyone here in Toronto will paint a label on you and judge you by your race.

[mikedavid00]

the statement i made is a statement of fact.

You say that most muslims have integrated fine into Canada.

Question:

Will most mulsims let you marry their daughter?

Answer:

No.

Until you can answer yes, they are not integrated.

[mikedavid00]

All the time, never bothers me, of course I give in reverse, never hard feelings.

Would you do the same with a Pakistani muslim?

[jefferiah]

or your concept of worship is meaningless!

Why are you wasting your time telling me? I am only giving you the information I get from Muslims themselves, who claim they do not worship Jesus or Mohammed. You should be telling them their concept of worship is meaningless.

Edited March 14, 2008 by jefferiah

[mikedavid00]

It is, I think, a natural thing to feel you belong to a certain group and to feel more empathetic towards that group as opposed to another group you don't belong to; either naturally or by choice.

Yes. I first stickup for my neibourhood, then the province, then my country. Those are the groups I belong to.

Saying that because some stranger is a member of 'my group' because their skin is of the same shade is racism. It's that simple and it thrives and is encouraged in Canada.

Canada PROMOTES this racsim. It PROMOTES it. I have to pay for it and fund their racism.

Wanting to integrate is NOT being persued by immigrants and the left encourages this.

[jefferiah]

The footsoldiers of the church of christ and I use this term so loosely, have to believe the garbage preached at them, and do their duty. Hence we see Argus, Jefferiah, and other fundamentalist type "christians" espousing hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views.

Which hateful view did I espouse?

I believe you are the one who said most Christians are willing to kill to fulfill their sick prophecies. Now you find me a hateful view I espoused and we'll call it even.

[mikedavid00]

And what personal experiences with Muslims has lead you do believe this?

How about the fact that they are forcefully forcing women to put cloths over their head?

Where are the lefties now? Where are all the women groups?

Here we have these slave women walking around in our own society being 'owned' by men as cattle and where is the outrage from the womens groups and left?

Ah yes.. both involved groups, mulsims and other special interest groups look to the gov't for my tax dollars so they are both on the same page.

[mikedavid00]

Most South Asians HAVE integrated. Take a drive through Woodbridge and continue on towards Brampton. The only difference is one area has a higher concentration of South-Asian businesses and families and the other one is Italian. They're the same.

The chances are good that an italian girl from Woodbridge will let you marry her.

The chances are poor that a south asian girl from Brampton will let you marry her.

That's the most raw, fundemental example of racism I can give and that's why I use the marriage example. The marriage is a proof positive of integration from the people and families involved.

And no, most businesses in Brampton are certainly not south asian owned. Much of it is old industry. They come to 'live' here and use services, not to pay taxes and create employment. However, I cannot say the same for Italians as you might see them plowing snow, in an office, roofing a building, laying stucco, opening business, investing, etc.

[mikedavid00]

Can't everyone just agree that extremism and organized crime are wrong and leave it at that?

Getting back to the subject, should Canada encourage a disproportionate number of people from a culture with a long history of equality between the sexes and getting along with other cultures? What's more important, your willingness to get along with everyone or where you come from?

Hell no!

And didn't the Chinese gov't just arrest the members of that particular group your talking about for some terrorist plot for the Olympics?

[kuzadd]

Which hateful view did I espouse?

I believe you are the one who said most Christians are willing to kill to fulfill their sick prophecies. Now you find me a hateful view I espoused and we'll call it even.

not most, only ones with certain 'end times' beliefs.

Is that most of them now? good god what a mess we are in.!

I didn't specifically link you with hateful, I gave you three types of common postings I see here as example, "hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views"

see what Jesus did in the posting?

Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

yet, how many here who identify themselves as "christians" follow there saviours admonishment??

Jefferiah?

[Argus]

And what personal experiences with Muslims has lead you do believe this?

Are you attempting to refute the statement or simply playing greek philosophical games?

If I relate personal experiences those would be dismissed as anecdotal anyway. Besides, I'm speaking about the cultural background of Muslims, not the behaviour of individuals.

[M.Dancer]

..... the cultural background of Muslims, not the behaviour of individuals.

Which cultural backgrounds?

Persian?

Turkish?

Arab?

Indonesian?

Pakistani?

Indian?

European?

African?

[Argus]

Well I'm talking about integration, not assimilation. That means that people who immigrate here don't have to commit cultural suicide - they don't have to cut that deep-rooted part of their identity out and adopt "traditional Canadian culture"

Yeah, in fact, they do. Your value system has to fit somewhere along the scale of values which encompasses Canadian beliefs. If you retain the wierd, usually backward beliefs of your "old" culture then you're not truly Canadian. That doesn't mean, if you're Scottish, say, you can't play the bagpipes at home and go to the odd Highland games or festival. But if you start wearing a kilt everywhere I'm going to think you're wierd.

And I don't care if you were born here and raised here. If you believe women have to wear a chador you are not a Canadian. You might have a passport, but I wll never call you a Canadian and never think of you as a Canadian. If you are a woman I will think you're pathetic and weak, and if you are a man, I will think you're ignorant and backward.

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

[Argus]

All muslims may adhere to Islam as you claim, but then again we don't even know if that is correct , they may not adhere, they may follow or may not.

There is no such thing as a secular Muslim.

But even if they follow Islam, it does not mean they are all extremists.

By our standards? Their standard, regular, mainstream cultural belief system regarding, for example, women, gays, abortion, would get any Christian labelled as an extremist by you. Why are you making excuses for Muslims?

Christians just want to convert everyone, they have no real respect or appreciation of diversity, amongst their fellow man.

Uh huuuu, you mean unlike Muslims?

Peruse some of the christian websites, Islam must be eradicated and everyone converted to christianity. This is what all this nonsense is about and what it has always been about. The footsoldiers of the church of christ and I use this term so loosely, have to believe the garbage preached at them, and do their duty. Hence we see Argus, Jefferiah, and other fundamentalist type "christians" espousing hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views.

Well, I've been called a lot of things in my life by some really dumb people, but I don't think anyone has ever mistaken me for a fundamentalist Christian. Then again, I don't think I've ever come across anyone so utterly flumoxed about common terms like "deity" before.

[Argus]

Which cultural backgrounds?

Persian?

Turkish?

Arab?

Indonesian?

Pakistani?

Indian?

European?

African?

All of them.

Especially the common trait "Believe what I believe and act how I say you should or I will kill you".

[M.Dancer]

There is no such thing as a secular Muslim.

By our standards? Their standard, regular,

So what do you call S. Rushdi or Irshad Manji?

[M.Dancer]

All of them.

Especially the common trait "Believe what I believe and act how I say you should or I will kill you".

So can we just agree that despite the vast differences in culture, education and expectations amongst muslims with each around the world....you don't really care and would prefer to paint them all with the same brush?

[jazzer]

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

I'd go easy on the Indian feather headresses there Argus. They are the first nations after all.

[Argus]

So what do you call S. Rushdi or Irshad Manji?

Both of whom are so wildly out of touch with the mainstream of their religions that they would almost certainly be beaten to death on the streets of any Muslim city on the planet if they dared to express their views.

[M.Dancer]

Both of whom are so wildly out of touch with the mainstream of their religions that they would almost certainly be beaten to death on the streets of any Muslim city on the planet if they dared to express their views.

Which is entirely irrelevant to the question or to Argus statement that there are no secular muslims.

....probably not factual either. I assume Istanbul both would be relatively safe....or at least as safe as in Regina