Did the Holocaust really happen?

[DogOnPorch]

Who is Napoleon? No such man has ever existed.

Stop crediting quotes to someone who has never existed.

Where all all the bodies from Waterloo? I smell a rat.

The surest way to see if something like this has its own agenda is to substitute another historical event as we mentioned a few pages back. Does it sound ridiculous? Are folks doing studies as to if and/or when Waterloo actually happened? If not...why not? Perhaps the evidence is just plain overwhelming that from June 16-18, 1815 the final acts of the Waterloo Campaign occured. Maybe, just maybe, hey?

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Napoleon has humbugged me, by God; he has gained twenty-four hours' march on me.

---Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington before the Battle of Quatre-Bras

Edited April 4, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Wilber]

Anyone who thinks that the names of 6,000,000 Jews were written down as they were killed and calculating the number of Jews killed was merely a matter of adding up the names on some magical list is an imbecile.

We'll see

[Brain Candy]

I think the problem is we are arguing about a whole lot of different aspects of this:

Do people like David Irving have enough evidence to substantiate a revisionist arguement?

Should revisionism and denial be the same thing in this case?

Is the Holocaust being used as a political tool?

Is the line between hate speech and debate blurred here?

[Guest American Woman]

QUOTE=jbg @ Apr 3 2008, 08:34 PM: Holocaust deniers make a big deal about the fact that most people died of starvation or disease rather than gassing, since it gives them an opportunity to call people who use shorthand terms such as "6 million gas chamber victims" liars.

If most people died of starvation and disease it would be important, at least as far as distinguishing between delibrate, state sponsored industrialised extermination of people and death by lack of food (unless this was deliberate) and poor living conditions, Stalin and Pol Pot provided much larger numbers of dead if that was the case.

Most people didn't die of starvation or disease though.

It is estimated that 2 million were killed by the Einsatzgruppen,* 3.3 million in the gas chambers,** and about 500,000 died in the ghettos of Eastern Europe of hunger, disease, and exhaustion, and as victims of random terror and reprisals.

*Einsatzgruppen, special duty troops of the SS’s security service and security police, were assigned to each of the German armies invading the Soviet Union. They rounded up the Jews and killed them. The Jews were loaded on trucks or marched to remote areas. They were machine gunned into natural ravines, antitank trenches or the mass graves they were ordered to dig.

**Later, starting in 1942, the Nazis contructed six installations with large scale gassing facilities and with crematoria for the disposal of bodies. They were Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka. All were located in Poland. Gilbert notes that 1,500,000 Jews were murdered at Auschwitz; 360,000 at Chelmno; 250,000 at Sobibor; 600,000 at Belzec; and 840,000 at Treblinka.

link

[Rue]

Socred you stated and I quote;

"Organizations such as the ADL and the JDL have conspired to accuse anyone who questions the holocaust as being anti-semetic. In fact, they've conspired to create laws to have these people put in jail."

Then you state;

"I'm not the one casting innuenedos."

Psst, read what you write Socred. The above is a blatant example of the very thing you claim you are not doing.

Socred with due respect the Jewish Defence League is a group of about 60 angry Brooklyn Orthodox Jews, get real. They do not represent all Jews, and certainly are not mainstream. For you to use them as your basis to again deliberately engage in an anti-semitic slur that Jews are engaging in conspiracies is bullshit.

In fact your comments are absurd. Some of the strongest supporters against hate laws in the US, are Jews who take an actiev role in the civil liberties movement and do not want holocaust deniars muzzled. Your attempt to engage in group negative generalizations which you assign all Jews is bull.

Your description of all Jews as "they" and then suggesting they are conspiring to create laws to put people in jail by the way completely contradicts your denial that when you engage in words like "them" or "they" you were not referring to Jews. Your own words betray you and show your true intent-which is to slur all Jews when you discuss the holocaust, with negative characteristics designed to incite resentment towards Jews and suggest we are evil.

[Rue]

If most people died of starvation and disease it would be important, at least as far as distinguishing between delibrate, state sponsored industrialised extermination of people and death by lack of food (unless this was deliberate) and poor living conditions, Stalin and Pol Pot provided much larger numbers of dead if that was the case.

Your comment is shocking to me. Think about what you just wrote. If in fact Jews died of starvation and disease in no way would it mean that wasn't state sponsored and deliberate. Your then trying to engage in a pissing contest to suggest since more people starved in Kampuchea or with the Ukrainian slaughter lessens the meaning or impact is precisely what some of us are calling out.

One genocide has nothing to do with the other nor would one genocide make the other any less significant or less morally repugnant- an evil does not make another evil less evil and I am suprised I would have to advise you of that.

It is precisely your kind of reasoning where you engage in comparisons of death rates as an exercise to lessen moral depravity which is at the centre of this debate.

Are you deliberately revising history to rationalize genocides by playing one against the other to make one or all of them not seem as bad as they were? That is the concern people like me have.

We know why Socred does it. He has a clear anti-Jewish agenda and does not hide it although he tried to couch it with me in a response before he let it fly again.

In your case? I genuinely believe you have no agenda other then to seek accuracy and the truth. That is why I challenge you, not because I question your integrity, just your reasoning.

You will note if I call someone out as anti-semite it is in specific reference to a negative slur against all Jews not because they question the holocaust.

I say it again. We should question everything. How else can we learn? Questioning is a good thing.

People who engage in agendas to deny something that has happened open another kettle of fish.

See me personally I don't wan them censored. I want people to debate them openly and show how wrong they are. I think that is far more valuable a way to deal with them then making martyrs out of them and putting them in jail and making them appear to be victims.

What Socred ha again repeated and is a common misnomer is that the laws in Europe as to holocaust denial simply put people in jail the moment they deny the holocaust. They do not.

Anyone who bothers to read the laws in Germany and France would know this.

As for alleging an ADL-JDL conspiracy to put people in jail that is a complete and utter fabrication. Someone should also tell Buffy that the JDL never represented Jews nor claimed to-it was an extremist and tiny cell of idiots and the very laws Socred criticize are what put that idiot Kahane in jail when he encouraged violence.

What I am saying is ysomeone wants to shoot off at the mouth - its a freedom of speech issue and I appreciate its a difficult one. Go over the line and counsel people to commit assaults and batteries and engage in property damage, then in my personal opnion I think that should be prosecuted as a crime no different then if you hit someone. Words can be weapons. It all depends on their context.

The context they are used in and the intent of their speaker is the key and very rarely are criminal laws used in Canada for this.

We have a case right now in Saskatchewan with a former aboriginal leader who said hateful things. The point is the aboriginal community immediately came out and spoke to the Jewish community and condoned what he said.

The point is his words were stupid and hurtful but putting him in jail is pointless. His words did not incite violence. Had they incited violence, maybe then it might be a criminal matter. They did not. All they did was expose the speaker as an idiot. He was stripped of his Order of Canada. Doing anything else will only turn him into a victim to be pitied the last thing that should be done.

If Socred bothered to actually read what the ADL and B'Nai B'Rith are defending they would see it is not jail time for people who deny the holocaust-its a uniform law that contains anyone who incites people to hurt others and its not particular to Jews and someone should tell my friend Buffy its been used by the Muslim community in the US to protect themselves from hate crimes. In fact the ADL has defended Muslims against anti-Muslim violence and Muslims in turn have supported Jews in the US and others for the same reasons.

No this Jew and the ones I know do not want to arrest anyone. Thanks but I prefer to take them on in the open. If they do facilitate a crime, then yes I think the Crown should lay charges and establish they committed a crime.

I do not think the criminal code is the best solution and should only be used in extreme last resort cases when nothing else works. It was only involved with Ernst Zundel after he and his followers were caught red-handed engaging in batteries and property damage and other crimes including selling drugs to minors.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

Most people didn't die of starvation or disease though.

There is an old Yiddish expression AmWo; "it is pointless to tell a man whose teeth you pull out one by one, that it would be worse if it were his fingernails".

Lao Tzu said, " only a fool would suggest wind is mightier then water-they are both equally as capable of eroding resistance ".

Someone ought to point out that whether one is gassed, slowly tortured, starved, shot in the back of the head, worked to death, to suggest one makes the other less state sanctioned or signigicant is absolutely assinine.

Of course the people in the concentration camps were starved to death slowly. To suggest that makes the holocaust less of a holocaust is insane.

But then I find the kind of people that engage in these debates have no conception of the absurdity of their denials precisely because they are priviliged and their minds can not flex and imagine what hell is-yet.

That reminds me of a Zen saying, hell is the denial we create, no more, no less.

[jbg]

If most people died of starvation and disease it would be important, at least as far as distinguishing between delibrate, state sponsored industrialised extermination of people and death by lack of food (unless this was deliberate) and poor living conditions, Stalin and Pol Pot provided much larger numbers of dead if that was the case.

The aim was death. The Jews were taken to camps and in many cases simply not fed. They resorted to gassing when the camps needed to be cleared faster to make way for new arrivals, towards the end.

[socred]

Now you are dancing! good boy, keep it up!

I'm not the one doing the dancing or making baseless innuendos.

Did you or did you not vote in this poll that the holocaust did not happen? At least have the courage of your convictions socred. Nothing worse than a cowardly holocaust denier.

I never voted. Why would I vote on something which the answer to the question is obvious?

[socred]

We know why Socred does it. He has a clear anti-Jewish agenda and does not hide it although he tried to couch it with me in a response before he let it fly again

What clear anti-Jewish agenda? Specifically, show me something that is "anti-Jewish"?

If Socred bothered to actually read what the ADL and B'Nai B'Rith are defending they would see it is not jail time for people who deny the holocaust-its a uniform law that contains anyone who incites people to hurt others and its not particular to Jews

Specifically, who was hurt by what David Irving and Ernst Zundel said?

[socred]

Socred you stated and I quote;

"Organizations such as the ADL and the JDL have conspired to accuse anyone who questions the holocaust as being anti-semetic. In fact, they've conspired to create laws to have these people put in jail."

Then you state;

"I'm not the one casting innuenedos."

Psst, read what you write Socred. The above is a blatant example of the very thing you claim you are not doing.

Socred with due respect the Jewish Defence League is a group of about 60 angry Brooklyn Orthodox Jews, get real. They do not represent all Jews, and certainly are not mainstream. For you to use them as your basis to again deliberately engage in an anti-semitic slur that Jews are engaging in conspiracies is bullshit.

In fact your comments are absurd. Some of the strongest supporters against hate laws in the US, are Jews who take an actiev role in the civil liberties movement and do not want holocaust deniars muzzled. Your attempt to engage in group negative generalizations which you assign all Jews is bull.

Your description of all Jews as "they" and then suggesting they are conspiring to create laws to put people in jail by the way completely contradicts your denial that when you engage in words like "them" or "they" you were not referring to Jews. Your own words betray you and show your true intent-which is to slur all Jews when you discuss the holocaust, with negative characteristics designed to incite resentment towards Jews and suggest we are evil.

Psst, read what I write.

First off, show me where I said either the JDL or the ADL represents all Jews?

Secondly, the "they" I was referring to was anyone who wants to limit our freedom of speech: once again, another innuendo. By the way, if you had read post # 175, I had addressed this already.

What I find quite comical is the baseless assumptions that are made about me.

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry about your uncle at Ortona. That's really horrible.

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Edited April 4, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[jbg]

Specifically, who was hurt by what David Irving and Ernst Zundel said?

Exactly. Zundel and Irving should be free to demonstrate to the world that they are ignorant bigots.

[M.Dancer]

Exactly. Zundel and Irving should be free to demonstrate to the world that they are ignorant bigots.

And gthe world should be free to beat them with socks filled with batteries...

[AngusThermopyle]

Specifically, who was hurt by what David Irving and Ernst Zundel said?

I was. It really really hurt my feelings.

[socred]

Sorry about your uncle at Ortona. That's really horrible.

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Thank you.

War is a horrible thing, and lot's of horrible things happen during wars.

I just wish we weren't so quick to rush into them, but I think a main cause of war in the modern world is economics.

[socred]

Exactly. Zundel and Irving should be free to demonstrate to the world that they are ignorant bigots.

They should be free to express themselves, and the world is free to judge them for their expressions.

[socred]

And gthe world should be free to beat them with socks filled with batteries...

We should allow people to injure others they might disagree with?

Isn't that exactly what the Fascists and Communists did?

Edited April 5, 2008 by socred

[M.Dancer]

We should allow people to injure others they might disagree with?

Isn't that exactly what the Fascists and Communists did?

...and trade unionists....

Don't expect me to feel lovey dovely with those whose mission is nto spread hate and to rehabilitate the NAZIs.

[socred]

...and trade unionists....

Don't expect me to feel lovey dovely with those whose mission is nto spread hate and to rehabilitate the NAZIs.

You're free to feel any way you desire.

There is a difference between feeling and action.

[DogOnPorch]

Thank you.

War is a horrible thing, and lot's of horrible things happen during wars.

I just wish we weren't so quick to rush into them, but I think a main cause of war in the modern world is economics.

War is horrible...not that I've fought in one myself. But it's pretty obvious. The closest I've ever gotten to 'war' was as a child being almost at the wrong place at the wrong time in London when a bomb went off. Both frightening and facinating. War must be like that x 1000.

I think tribalism and religion are causing many wars as well. Africa is a good example of that...with economics thrown in to be sure.

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Some call it the Army, but a more alarmist name would be "The Killbot Factory"

---Kent Brockman: The Simpsons

[Rue]

I am now going to take great care and detail to respond to Socred because I believe he has not engaged in sincerity or intellectual honesty in his comments on the holocaust.

Specifically Socred asked this forum these questions which I quote from his own words;

1-“What clear anti-Jewish agenda? Specifically, show me something that is "anti Jewish"?” 2- “LMFAO What "anti-semitic slur"?”

I will respond to the above by providing the specific and deliberate anti-semitic comments Socred made and then evidence what he has done since he came on this particular thread-deliberately engage in anti-Jewish comments, then deny he has.

In my next post I will point out how he has deliberately and with great care inter-mixed attacks on Jews using anti-Zionism as a pretence and by so doing incites hatred against all Jews and assigns negative motives to all Jews while claiming he is only referring to Zionists.

The specific anti-semitic comments he uttered and then attempts to laugh off are as follows and all anyone has to do is go back and read what he wrote, all the below comments are direct quotes from his previous posts on this thread;

i-By the way, who are "your people" and what is a "Jew"?

ii-There have been many people persecuted over the course of the history of man, but I'm sure many Jews want us to believe that it is unique to them.

iii- If Jews disagree with you, they claim you are an "anti-semite".

iv-What the Jews want to do is silence all debate on this subject. Are you referring to my statement "What the Jews want to do is silence all debate on this subject."? I didn't say "all Jews".

Socreds words are clear. He assigned negative characteristics or slurs to all Jews. He then in my personal opinion mocks this forum when called out on it by trying to trivialize with sarcasitic comments like “ I didn’t say all” which I would contend are transparent and show his lack of sincerity in being frank and candid with what his agenda is.

I wish to make clear when I call out Socred on his anti-semitic comments, you will note I am being crystal clear as to the words he has used. Why? Because it is my personal opinion Socred is being manipulative and when someone calls him out on negative comments that slur all Jews by assigning them a negative characteristic, he claims he is criticized for questioning the holocaust or didn't use the word "all".

I also personally believe he has been intellectually dishonest in cultivating an ambiguity between the difference in denying an event and questioning it.

In my opinion he has incited the impression that denying the holocaust and questioning it are one and the same.

They are not. One denies it ever happened, the other asks how it happened.

It is a crucial distinction particularly in Socred's case since he has described Ernst Zundel as a political prisoner and someone who questioned the holocaust.

Ernst Zundel did not question the holocaust, he denied it happened. He called the victims of the holocaust liars. He instructed people on recorded telephone messages and on his inter-net that Jews are evil and liars. He and his followers engaged in physical assault and batteries of innocent people and engaged in illegal drug activities.

Mr. Zundel was a man full of hatred and putrid thoughts but he was deported not for his thoughts but for his insistence in vandalizing private property and engaging in words that counselled people to engage in violence and openly accused a visible group of all being liars.

Mr. Zundel was not deported because he questioned the holocaust. He was deported because he encouraged violence and criminal acts. Had he not called all Jews liars, had he not engaged in physical assaults and batteries and plan and carry out damage to cemeteries and synagogues or engage in race baiting against blacks and Muslims-if all he did was engage in debate as to the holocaust, he would still be here and Socred is well aware of that.

Socred asked whether Nazis should be placed in jail. Yes if they encourage people to break laws. Our political opinions do not give us an excuse or pretence to break the law.

[Rue]

Socred asked this forum what makes his thoughts despicable. To answer that question I provide this quote from him;

“And again, no I do not thing that the persecution of Jews is "unique in the history of man". There have been many people persecuted over the course of the history of man, but I'm sure many Jews want us to believe that it is unique to them. “

The above comments I would contend are despicable in that their context is to assign negative motivations to Jews and single them out for resentment if they remember their pain and suffering.

Socred can respond to me and say he did not use the word “all” but it does not change the content or intent of his comments which are in my opinion despicable because they suggest someone who is a victim of persecution is evil if they point it out.

Jews who talk of the holocaust and explain its link to many thousands of years of persecution do not do so because they believe they are the only people who suffered. To suggest that is nothing but hateful and bigoted and deliberately intended to incite resentment.

I find it also completely dispicable that Socred came on this Forum and said he says what he says because he pursues the truth. How does insulting Jews and belittling their suffering in any way pursue truth or motivate anyone to pursue truth?

Socred asks what is a Jew? Perhaps he should ask, who is he and start with himself and look in the mirror.

[White Doors]

Thanks Rue.

And on top of that backtrack from minimizing the holocaust and all the while provides not one iota of proof. He also side steps all challenges to do so.

All rhetoric and no substance.

q'uelle suprise

[AngusThermopyle]

“And again, no I do not thing that the persecution of Jews is "unique in the history of man".

Well its just my opinion but I think the Holocaust was actually pretty unique. Sure other races have been persecuted but never before have we seen (to my knowledge) anything like the specialist people disposal industry that was set up to deal with the Jews. When you look into it you come to realize that efficiency was the watch word used by the Germans. They balanced the need for slave labour against efficient disposal in order to maximize both. No one else has ever done that before.

So, yes, I would say that is pretty damn unique.