Did the Holocaust really happen?

jbg · April 28, 2008

You can't understand it? Quite simply the event is being used for political purposes, particularly the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, and the continued expansion of borders in that region.

When earlier on I referred to some of your comments as being despicable this is one of them. The Jews, after the Shoach, could not as a practical matter return to their prior homes and businesses. Most of those were expropriated. Just as significantly the locals didn't exactly welcom back people they had sought to oust for the longest of time.

On the merits, Holocaust denial laws are wrong. Those who accuse Jews of falsely using the Holocaust as justification for a Jewish state are even more wrong.

socred · April 28, 2008

When earlier on I referred to some of your comments as being despicable this is one of them. The Jews, after the Shoach, could not as a practical matter return to their prior homes and businesses. Most of those were expropriated. Just as significantly the locals didn't exactly welcom back people they had sought to oust for the longest of time.
On the merits, Holocaust denial laws are wrong. Those who accuse Jews of falsely using the Holocaust as justification for a Jewish state are even more wrong.

You want to know what I find despicable?

I find it despicable that anyone who criticizes the Apartheid/Military state of Israel is labelled an anti-semite. I also find it despicable that as soon as there is any criticism of Israel, there are people who automatically start bringing up the holocaust.

If you think that Jews were the only people to have lost their business or home during WWII, then you must live in some fantasy land.

M.Dancer · April 28, 2008

You want to know what I find despicable?
I find it despicable that anyone who criticizes the Apartheid/Military state of Israel is labelled .....

I usually label someone who calls Israel an aparthied military state foolish. How do you debate with someone who is demonstratably out to lunch about what apartied was...someone who is so unconcerned with the meanings of words or who are unconcerned with the true suffering of those who suffered under the boer regime that they call a democratic state where all citizens can vote, aparthied?

In my book they are no different from those who call Bush a Nazi.

White Doors · April 28, 2008

I usually label someone who calls Israel an aparthied military state foolish. How do you debate with someone who is demonstratably out to lunch about what apartied was...someone who is so unconcerned with the meanings of words or who are unconcerned with the true suffering of those who suffered under the boer regime that they call a democratic state where all citizens can vote, aparthied?
In my book they are no different from those who call Bush a Nazi.

Exactly!

AngusThermopyle · April 28, 2008

I usually label someone who calls Israel an aparthied military state foolish. How do you debate with someone who is demonstratably out to lunch about what apartied was...someone who is so unconcerned with the meanings of words or who are unconcerned with the true suffering of those who suffered under the boer regime that they call a democratic state where all citizens can vote, aparthied?
In my book they are no different from those who call Bush a Nazi.

Spot on. It just tells me that these people don't have a clue as to what Aparthied really was.

I lived in Port Elizabeth South Africa as a child. Even at an early age the effects and presence of Aparthied were readily observable. Believe me, Israel isn't even close to being an Aparthied state.

jbg · April 28, 2008

I find it despicable that anyone who criticizes the Apartheid/Military state of Israel is labelled an anti-semite.

As a practical matter there is very little distinction between between being anti-Israel or anti-Jewish. How many people do you know that are anti- (or pro-) Denmark, Poland, Canada, Norway or Iceland. It is only the US and Israel, countries that really stand for something that attract adulation or hatred. And what they stand for is the liberty of people. within limits, to do what they want, when they want to and how they want to. That is a psychological threat to control freaks, the kinds of people who want to ram Kyoto down the world's throat or French down English-speaker's throats.

I also find it despicable that as soon as there is any criticism of Israel, there are people who automatically start bringing up the holocaust. If you think that Jews were the only people to have lost their business or home during WWII, then you must live in some fantasy land.

Jews were the disproportionate victims of deliberate hatred, as opposed to mere collateral damage. There is no denying that.

socred · April 29, 2008

As a practical matter there is very little distinction between between being anti-Israel or anti-Jewish. How many people do you know that are anti- (or pro-) Denmark, Poland, Canada, Norway or Iceland. It is only the US and Israel, countries that really stand for something that attract adulation or hatred. And what they stand for is the liberty of people. within limits, to do what they want, when they want to and how they want to. That is a psychological threat to control freaks, the kinds of people who want to ram Kyoto down the world's throat or French down English-speaker's throats.
Jews were the disproportionate victims of deliberate hatred, as opposed to mere collateral damage. There is no denying that.

I'm sure the Zionist lobby would like us to think that there is little distinction between being critical of Isreal, and being critical of the followers of Judaism. However; there are many Jews themselves who are critical not only of Isreal, but Jews themselves (but I guess these Jews are also "antisemitic" :lol: ). The label "antisemitic" is just an attempt to deflect any criticism by claiming that those who criticize have an irrational hatred of all Jews: of course, anyone who has reasonable intelligence knows this a logical fallacy, and one being perpetrated for political reasons.

Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists

Protest at Zionist Fair in Teaneck, New Jersey

Benjamin Freedman Speech

On The Jewish Question

THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY: REFLECTIONS ON THE EXPLOITATION OF JEWISH SUFFERING

I guess these Jews are all "anti-semites" as well?

Interesting that you compare Israel and the US. There's no doubt that their policies are very similar, especially in light of of this document, which was created prior to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Project for a New American Century

I would call it something other than a Project for a New American Century. I'm sure these "Straussians" are Zionist supporters.

Edited April 29, 2008 by socred

WestViking · April 29, 2008

I'm sure the Zionist lobby would like us to think that there is little distinction between being critical of Isreal, and being critical of the followers of Judaism. However; there are many Jews themselves who are critical not only of Isreal, but Jews themselves (but I guess these Jews are also "antisemitic" ). The label "antisemitic" is just an attempt to deflect any criticism by claiming that those who criticize have an irrational hatred of all Jews: of course, anyone who has reasonable intelligence knows this a logical fallacy, and one being perpetrated for political reasons.

Do you have a valid criticism of Israel or not? Whining about 'critics' who make insane and inane commentary on Israel and are subsequently shown up for fools is hardly a useful exercise. Let's see your stuff - show us that you have valid, supportable criticisms that can withstand rational scrutiny.

Edited April 29, 2008 by WestViking

jbg · April 29, 2008

On The Jewish Question

If your model for a loyal Jew is Karl Marx you have some learning to do. He was a virulent, self-hating Jew. You "thinking" about Israel seems to begin and end with your doubts that the Jews are "good tenants" in the Diaspora, which leads me to believe that you consider the Shoach justified. That leads me to the conclusion that you cloak your anti-Judaism in "anti-Zionism".

Edited April 29, 2008 by jbg

socred · April 29, 2008

If your model for a loyal Jew is Karl Marx you have some learning to do. He was a virulent, self-hating Jew. You "thinking" about Israel seems to begin and end with your doubts that the Jews are "good tenants" in the Diaspora, which leads me to believe that you consider the Shoach justified. That leads me to the conclusion that you cloak your anti-Judaism in "anti-Zionism".

LMFAO! :lol: When did I say the Shoach was justified?? You lie! But that does not suprise me. I merely stated that the Germans weren't the first country to show their Jewish "tenants" the door.

Now Marx is a shelf hating Jew, so that doesn't make him "loyal"? Is "loyalty" to the Isreal and Judaism the ultimate goal? Is any Jew who criticizes Israel or Jews "disloyal"? Very interesting.

Only a fool does not know the difference between Zionism, Judaism, and semitism. However; I'm sure it's in your benefit to confuse the three.

Edited April 29, 2008 by socred

White Doors · April 29, 2008

LMFAO! When did I say the Shoach was justified?? You lie! But that does not suprise me. I merely stated that the Germans weren't the first country to show their Jewish "tenants" the door.
Now Marx is a shelf hating Jew, so that doesn't make him "loyal"? Is "loyalty" to the Isreal and Judaism the ultimate goal? Is any Jew who criticizes Israel or Jews "disloyal"? Very interesting.

Only a fool does not know the difference between Zionism, Judaism, and semitism. However; I'm sure it's in your benefit to confuse the three.

Small point of order, the Germans didn't 'show them the door', the attempted to exterminate them kind of like the Americans attempted to exterminate the wolf in the 1800's.

socred · April 30, 2008

Small point of order, the Germans didn't 'show them the door', the attempted to exterminate them kind of like the Americans attempted to exterminate the wolf in the 1800's.

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

Wilber · April 30, 2008

I never even knew there were nations with laws against denying the Holocaust, much less a number of them:
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Austria

Belgium

Czech Republic

France

Germany

Israel

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Switzerland

link

I can't really understand why there would be laws against it.

All countries that either took part in the genocide or were victims of it. It is only in countries which were untouched by it such as ours, who indulge in these bullshit exercises. Never having experienced it, some of us cannot accept that such a thing could happen even though in our own time, Cambodia and the Balkans have shown us otherwise.

Edited April 30, 2008 by Wilber

Wilber · April 30, 2008

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

Many fled to other countries like France, Denmark, Holland etc. only to wind up in the NAZI net. Small point of order, what the hell do you mean by that statement? We couldn't make them leave so we had to kill them? Your true colours are really shining.

Peter F · April 30, 2008

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

C'mon socred. The Nazi's didn't try to show them the door at all. For that to be true they would have evicted the lot of them. But they didn't and they made no attempt to do so. Even when they conquered most of Europe, as Wilbur points out, they made no attempt to do so.

jbg · April 30, 2008

LMFAO! When did I say the Shoach was justified?? You lie! But that does not suprise me. I merely stated that the Germans weren't the first country to show their Jewish "tenants" the door.

Do you mean the door to the gas chambers and/or crematoria of Treblinka, Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald and/or Maidanek? What Russia did was by indirection; they allowed drunken mobs to kill the Jews. Other countries brought them in and expelled them based on short term goals.

The countries that have welcomed Jews on a permanent basis are among the most prosperous. The US, Canada, and Australia come to mind. Any guess why?

Now Marx is a shelf hating Jew, so that doesn't make him "loyal"? Is "loyalty" to the Isreal and Judaism the ultimate goal? Is any Jew who criticizes Israel or Jews "disloyal"? Very interesting.

Ask Vidkund Quisling about loyalty.

Only a fool does not know the difference between Zionism, Judaism, and semitism. However; I'm sure it's in your benefit to confuse the three.

Can you explain the difference? And while you're at it what is "semitism"?

sharkman · April 30, 2008

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

This socred person is either unusually stupid, or a racist. Either way, he doesn't add up to much and is not worth the effort to respond to. What's the point.

White Doors · April 30, 2008

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

Irrelevent. They killed 6 million Jews and 4 million other 'undesireables' for having the terminity of living in their conquered lands and you want to talk about how they tried to get them out first?

Your racism is shining through here.

Why do you believe that they tried to get them out, yet question the accuracy of the number they killed?

Isn't that believing selected facts to reafirm your racism?

that is dangerous thinking for yourself.

M.Dancer · April 30, 2008

This socred person is either unusually stupid, or a racist.

It doesn't have to be an either or answer. My money is on both.

sharkman · April 30, 2008

Why can't you provide any links for your claims?

socred · May 2, 2008

I've provided all sorts of links. You just don't know how to use them.

Edited May 2, 2008 by socred

jbg · May 2, 2008

This socred person is either unusually stupid, or a racist. Either way, he doesn't add up to much and is not worth the effort to respond to. What's the point.

My $$$$ is on both.

sharkman · May 2, 2008

Why can't you provide any links for your claims?

socred, this remark I made was not to you, it was to a poster whose silly comments got deleted and his membership revoked.

socred · May 4, 2008

My $$$$ is on both.

Wow! You've graduated to ad-hominem! That really strengthens your arguments.

:lol:

The last resort of the desperate.

DogOnPorch · May 5, 2008

Small point of order, the Nazis did try to "show them the door", but nobody would take them. Hence the term "the FINAL solution".

The 'Final Solution' was a result of the Wannsee Conference of Jan '42. Nazis were killing Jews before then. Jedwabne and Babi Yar being some examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_solutio...Jewish_question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

-------------------------------------------

Ich sah jenes schmutzige Schwein Eichmann...Er wohnt beinahe in Buenos Aires und arbeitet für ein Wassergeschäft.

---Message on a postcard to Simon Wiesenthal