Stalin, Hero or Villain?

[Cuba's Friend]

Boy o Boy Dimitri Gallos,

You must be plainly kidding (in a very bad way) to even think the thoughts you write about one of the biggest butcher on his own people in history. Compared to him, Hitler was a child.

God, how can people be so narrow?

Enjoy your funny world.

JK

[kengs333]

Hitler murdered 6 million in his concentration camps.

Common fallacy--it's interesting how often the "6 million" figure comes up, isn't it? The true number is open to debate, but the "6 million" figure is ascribed to the number of Jews who were liquidated (not just in death/concentration camps), and does not reflect the fact that a similar number of non-Jews may also have been eliminated. Whatever the case, if one wants to play the numbers game, then Stalin and the Soviets still were worse; but quantifying suffering is kind of lame.

[Muddy]

Common fallacy--it's interesting how often the "6 million" figure comes up, isn't it? The true number is open to debate, but the "6 million" figure is ascribed to the number of Jews who were liquidated (not just in death/concentration camps), and does not reflect the fact that a similar number of non-Jews may also have been eliminated. Whatever the case, if one wants to play the numbers game, then Stalin and the Soviets still were worse; but quantifying suffering is kind of lame.

Quite right of course. Although the Jews were most prominant in the death camps of Hitler ,JW`s , and a host of other groups were victims.

Comparing Hitler,Stalin, Castro,Mao,Polpot as who was worst I guess is not relevant. Paul Bernardo or a Clifford Olsen were equal to these mass killers in the eyes and hearts of the victims. they just didn`t have the organizations.

Gosh I hope there is a Hell and damnation in the next life for these guys.

[DogOnPorch]

Common fallacy--it's interesting how often the "6 million" figure comes up, isn't it? The true number is open to debate, but the "6 million" figure is ascribed to the number of Jews who were liquidated (not just in death/concentration camps), and does not reflect the fact that a similar number of non-Jews may also have been eliminated. Whatever the case, if one wants to play the numbers game, then Stalin and the Soviets still were worse; but quantifying suffering is kind of lame.

Quite right of course. Although the Jews were most prominant in the death camps of Hitler ,JW`s , and a host of other groups were victims.

Comparing Hitler,Stalin, Castro,Mao,Polpot as who was worst I guess is not relevant. Paul Bernardo or a Clifford Olsen were equal to these mass killers in the eyes and hearts of the victims. they just didn`t have the organizations.

Gosh I hope there is a Hell and damnation in the next life for these guys.

The 6 million figure is probably not that far off. Also the source was fairly candid (Adolf Eichmann). The big difference between the Jews and the 'others' was that the others didn't have the Wannsee Conference. As well, besides Soviet POWs, other groups died in the thousands as opposed to millions.

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Arbeit Macht Frei.

Edited February 18, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Wilber]

Stalin was indeed shocked by how quickly France fell. He was counting on a long drawn-out affair so that his modernization plans could take effect. Not to mention he needed a new officer corp after the Great Purge.

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You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread.

---Panzer General Heinz Guderian

Exactly, the biggest reason Russia nearly lost in 41 was because Stalin's paranoia had caused him to wipe out the majority of his officer corp and he ignored all the warnings of an impending invasion. He won in spite of himself but what the hell, if Hitler had won people like Dimitry would be calling him a hero.

[HisSelf]

Dear OP you forget the minor detail that it was Stalin's pact with Hitler that led to Hitler's invasion of Poland and the start of WWII in which Stalin was disasterously attacked and for which he was totally unprepared. Millions perished because of Stalin's own folly in addition to the the millions he murdered domestically and the millions later enslaved in Eastern Europe under Soviet communism. Villain he is.

The same mistake Chamberlain made. Europe never believed that Versailles was right.

[Regulus de Leo]

The same mistake Chamberlain made. Europe never believed that Versailles was right.

Except that Russia isn't "Europe" and Stalin felt no guilt about Versailles.

[kengs333]

The 6 million figure is probably not that far off. Also the source was fairly candid (Adolf Eichmann). The big difference between the Jews and the 'others' was that the others didn't have the Wannsee Conference. As well, besides Soviet POWs, other groups died in the thousands as opposed to millions.

It's possible that he presented an accurate figure, but the opposite could easily be the case, as well--there are a number of factors that could attribute for the latter, but I don't have the time or inclination to discuss them in detail. Whatever the case, large numbers of non-Jews were also singled out for elimination, and yes, many of these peoples died in the thousands because these groups usually only existed in the thousands, rather than millions, but collectively they still amount to millions.

[Wilber]

Except that Russia isn't "Europe" and Stalin felt no guilt about Versailles.

I always thought the Ural mountains were the boundary between Europe and Asia. If so the war was fought with the boundaries of Europe

[kengs333]

Hitler is responsible for WW2...thus if you add the Allied body-count of the European theater to the toll you'll find Hitler is still the biggest killer. However, this doesn't mean I'm part of some Stalin fan club. But I notice your attempt at such a painting.

This isn't quite true. The general consensus is that Hitler primarily had designs on the east and regaining land that was lost because of WWI. The war with Poland was simply intended to be just that, and it was the British and the French who ultimately decided to get involved. Germany certainly wasn't in a position to fight a war on a global level; it didn't have its navy prepared for such an undertaking, nor was the airforce structured to support anything more than a blitzkrieg style offensive war. Whatever the case, when we're talking about how many people a regime was responsible for killing, I think we're looking at deaths that result from persecution. In that respect, I think the Soviets were "worse" than the Nazis.

[M.Dancer]

I always thought the Ural mountains were the boundary between Europe and Asia. If so the war was fought with the boundaries of Europe

Quite correct. Russia is in europe, but the USSR straddled the two

[DogOnPorch]

It's possible that he presented an accurate figure, but the opposite could easily be the case, as well.

Except the Wannsee Conference's paper work backed-up everything he said. Testimony + evidence. Not to mention the camps and such themselves. The Germans love their record keeping. The Holocaust is one of those events where we have piles of evidence and eyewitness accounts from both sides, and yet folks still doubt it happened...or happened as stated. Much like the Moon Landings...

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I was one of the many horses pulling the wagon and couldn't escape left or right because of the will of the driver.

---Obersturmbannführer SS Adolf Eichmann

[Wilber]

Quite correct. Russia is in europe, but the USSR straddled the two

Russia still does.

[M.Dancer]

Russia still does.

indeed...

[Oleg Bach]

How does this essay differ from this one?

http://communistwiki.wikispaces.com/Josef+...a5b1e93bca820ca

Stalin the Georgian knew one thing within his limited intelligence - that if you want to rule and be the smartest guy in the community - you must kill all those that are brighter - he reminds me of mundane corporatizm where companies effect national policy and seem to methodically exault the stupid and stomp on the intelligensia. The vigor and force of sheer corporate numbers can over whelm a nation - in other words get the frightened and cowardly and stupid to assist you on mass to wipe out the intelligent folks that are few...sounds very familiar - Stalinish methods are coarse and brutal - but - we have them in a more refined and insidious form - the best do not reach the top but are destroyed by the so called collective "common good" - which is really the common bad.

[DogOnPorch]

Stalin the Georgian knew one thing within his limited intelligence - that if you want to rule and be the smartest guy in the community - you must kill all those that are brighter - he reminds me of mundane corporatizm where companies effect national policy and seem to methodically exault the stupid and stomp on the intelligensia.

It's too easy to say Stalin had limited intelligence. You don't pull off all that sh*t by being stupid. I think it would be fairer to say he was cunning like a fox. He did all the distasteful jobs that neither Lenin or Trotsky...and others...didn't do; rather, felt above doing. When Lenin passed, Stalin's enemies were shocked to find that he was holding all the cards in the deck. Too late...

This isn't quite true. The general consensus is that Hitler primarily had designs on the east and regaining land that was lost because of WWI. The war with Poland was simply intended to be just that, and it was the British and the French who ultimately decided to get involved.

I agree; but, the Germans were aware of the plan to aid Poland if attacked. They gambled that Britain and France wouldn't physically act. They gambled right. Germany had only a tiny skeleton force guarding the west. Had France acted immediately Germany would probably have been overrun. Even after the fall of Poland, the Sitzkrieg lasted right up until May 10th, 1940 with the launch of Case Yellow, the invasion of France and the Lowlands. Fear of a repeat of WW1 kept both France and Britain from acting when they should have.

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But courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility.

---Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

[Rue]

If you think the blame of the entire war can be put on one man you might need to take another look, my comment wasnt directed at you but its something I notice when people discuss this in general.

Ideologies and racism aside, It seems Germany's plan was allways to move east a duke it out with who they saw as their ideological enemy: Russia. The fear of Communism was all throughout Europe, but was understandably large in Germany due to an attempted revolution awhile back. But from their, as wars tend to go entangled alliances drew everyone into the fray and Germany bit off more then it could chew, as aggressors normally do.

I wonder what would have happened if Germany had stayed put, a Russian invasion perhaps? Surely you cant have two huge armies with opposing ideologies staring each other down for too long.

Excellent points.

[DogOnPorch]

If you think the blame of the entire war can be put on one man you might need to take another look, my comment wasnt directed at you but its something I notice when people discuss this in general.

Ideologies and racism aside, It seems Germany's plan was allways to move east a duke it out with who they saw as their ideological enemy: Russia. The fear of Communism was all throughout Europe, but was understandably large in Germany due to an attempted revolution awhile back. But from their, as wars tend to go entangled alliances drew everyone into the fray and Germany bit off more then it could chew, as aggressors normally do.

I wonder what would have happened if Germany had stayed put, a Russian invasion perhaps? Surely you cant have two huge armies with opposing ideologies staring each other down for too long.

Lebensraum was more a WW2 thing...and a Nazi concept. During WW1, Russia was not the main enemy...France was and plans were developed to knock-out France (Schlieffen Plan) first and foremost. Only one army...Germany's smallest, the 8th Army...under their worst leader...von Pritwitz...faced the Russian hordes in August 1914. Only when 3 huge Russian armies (1st, 2nd and 10th) crossed into East Prussia did the Germans replace 'Fatty' Pritwitz with the dynamic duo of the day, Hindenburg and Ludendorff. They destroyed the 2nd Army at Tannenberg and pushed the rest back into Poland and Russia. All on a shoestring budget.

The Austro-Hungarians did the bulk of the fighting on the Eastern Front of WW1...and they were perhaps the one military in Europe that was worse than the Russians. The Russians actually had some stunning victories vs them...the Brusilov Offensive of 1916, in particular.

Germany was all too happy to sign a peace deal with the Bolsheviks as it allowed them full sway against France/Britain/USA. The great offensive of 1918 on the Western Front followed promptly.

The Russians would have indeed attacked had they thought they were strong enough. But in 1941, they were in no shape. The Red Army was devoid of its officers after the Purge...NKVD Kommisars ran everything (poorly)...and the modernization of both the Army and Airforce was still laging far behind other nations. This wasn't fully rectified until after Stalingrad when proper rank and awards were reintroduced and the NKVD was put on the sidelines.

Stalin refused to allow any preparation against German attack least they give the enemy the wrong impression (they had a non-agression pact). Fortification and forward airfield construction was actually halted just to show Hitler that Stalin was a 'peaceful kinda guy'. The final trainload of crude oil from the Caucasus crossed the frontier into Germany one hour before the attack started. When Barbarossa was fully underway a few hours later, Stalin refused to believe it. Even as the shells were falling on the forward units and the Red Airforce was being torched on the ground, he denied commanders the right to fight back. That apparently went on for more than a full day before he finally admitted what everyone else knew.

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All we know is that, at times, fighting the Russians, we had to remove the piles of enemy bodies from before our trenches, so as to get a clear field of fire against new waves of assault. In the account book of the Great War the page recording the Russian losses has been ripped out. The figures are unknown. Five millions, or eight? We ourselves know not.

---General Paul von Hindenburg

[Wilber]

It doesn't seem to be well known but one of the most important battles in history was the Polish defeat of Bolshevik armies outside Warsaw in 1920. If they had lost there was little between the Red Army and the English Channel. Most if not all of Western Europe could have come under Soviet rule.

Miracle on the Vistula

[DogOnPorch]

Yes...had a wargame about this subject way back. An extension of the Russian Civil War with Poland playing the ad-hoc White forces. A full-up invasion. But Poland was Russia mere years ago...

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The Russian people are suffering from economic fatigue and from disillusionment with the Allies! The world thinks the Russian Revolution is at an end. Do not be mistaken. The Russian Revolution is just beginning.

---Alexander Kerensky

[DogOnPorch]

Heck...speak of the devil. We used to play this to death. Seated 6 for assassination/civil war fun. Same subject/time period.

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If we had had more time for discussion we should probably have made a great many more mistakes.

---Leon Trotsky

[jbg]

Therefore Stalin, not only organized a socialist economy within the USSR*********In the economic sector it is acknowledged by everyone in the political left( Stalinists , Trotskyists and Social Democrats ) and the political center and political right , that during the Stalin era ( 1928 - 1953) the economic improvements were immense. *********He collectivized the land , a move essential to achieve a socialist production and to ensure that there were no economic differences between the farmers. This move would essentially increase the agricultural output combined with the fact that he proceeded to the mechanization of agriculture. To achieve that, he purged those who had previously enslaved the peasants; the kulaks. The kulaks were a class of wealthy farmers that used the peasants’ underpaid work, for their own profit.

And how many millions died in the process from famine or being slaughtered?

Although Stalin ended a series of famines with their peak being the Holodomor in 1932-33, opponents accuse him of being responsible for these famines. The Holodomor, which is the name given to the Ukrainian famine had a death count of approximately one million lives. It is true that the Holodomor occured during Stalin’s era but the cause of that were the reactionary Kulaks as it was proven above. Therefore Stalin was not the “creator of these famines” but he also ended them once and for all with his collectivization of the land, which ensured prosperity for the workers and the entire nation.

Stalin was a brutal, power-mad sadist who left the world a far worse place than he found it.

[jbg]

Under the Soviets the agriculture industry was abysmal. Why would a commie farmer who earns a shit wage work his ass off for nothing when a farmer with his own land can work his ass off and gets paid more for it.

This attitude is what lost the Soviets the cold war.

Remember also, Russia was a breadbasket of Europe under the Czars; by 1972 they needed American wheat.

[Brain Candy]

Stalin the Georgian knew one thing within his limited intelligence

I dont think Hitler or Stalin were of limited intelligence. They could be heartless, and both made mistakes, but hardly stupid.

[Pliny]

I dont think Hitler or Stalin were of limited intelligence. They could be heartless, and both made mistakes, but hardly stupid.

It depends upon the measuring stick. Intelligence and stupidity are probably best measured by the longevity of an individuals friends and their success in aiding your longevity. Today it is measured almost entirely by one's memory which is in my consideration a factor but not the most important factor. Stalin obviously didn't consider compassion and honesty an asset to intelligence. Cruelty and treachery were probably his personal measuring stick of intelligence as they gained him what he thought important - power and control.