M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 The Hamas Charter.------------------------------------------------- Article Eight: Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. ---1988 Hamas Charter I certainly hope he can distinguish history from news......remembering who wrote this history, which certainly ain't news.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
lost&outofcontrol Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 (edited) ---1988 Hamas Charter This does not answer my question. It only serves to push further back. What is their motivation for hating (which is what I think you are trying to get at) the Jews then? This has been corrected berfore....the palestinians have never had their own nation till they had the opportunity which they threw away in 48. They have been living under one state or another since they immgrated there around 400 AD. And this justifies the oppression of an entire people?! And they have not then or now been slaves. Conscious slave Edited March 6, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 Conscious slave I'm pretty sure Lincoln freed the conscious slaves.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 And this justifies the oppression of an entire people?! Who is oppressing and who is oppressed? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 What, prey tell is wrong with (disproportion in military strength)? It's the normal way to win... Terrorism is the normal way to win against disproportionate military strength. Surely there's nothing wrong with wanting to win? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 Who is oppressing and who is oppressed? Honestly, does this really matter to you? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 Terrorism is the normal way to win against disproportionate military strength. Really? How many terrorist victories can you count? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 Lots, of course they're usually called freedom fighters by the time they do win. At least that's how the history books usually record it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 Lots, of course they're usually called freedom fighters by the time they do win. At least that's how the history books usually record it. I guess the answer is zero. Either that or you don't know or chiose to ignore what terrorism is. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 I choose to let history define terrorism, beyond that I can clearly see its desperate. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 I choose to let history define terrorism, beyond that I can clearly see its desperate. Then you should know that history defines guerillas and terrorists differently. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 So do ideolgues. They'll even define history for you. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted March 6, 2008 Report Posted March 6, 2008 This does not answer my question. It only serves to push further back. What is their motivation for hating (which is what I think you are trying to get at) the Jews then?And this justifies the oppression of an entire people?! Conscious slave So I gather you didn't read the charter. The answer is in there along with the appropriate references to the Koranic verse that justifies their actions vs the Jews. Try reading it... -------------------------------------------- Read history and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil forefathers of the even more evil Jews of today: infidels, falsifiers of words, calf worshippers, prophet murderers, deniers of prophecies...the scum of the human race, accursed by Allah, who turned them into apes and pigs. These are the Jews — an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption. ---Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, Sermon in Mecca Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
buffycat Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Posted March 6, 2008 The Founding Fathers would easily have been considered terrorists by the occupying Brits.... Quote "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" ~ Ghandi
DogOnPorch Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) The Founding Fathers would easily have been considered terrorists by the occupying Brits.... No they weren't. The Americans had their own Army (Continental Army) and Navy. They fought openly vs the British...wearing spiffy blue uniforms once fully equiped. Officers with proper ranks, etc. The British weren't occupiers, either. It was their colony, afterall. Both Tory and American support came from all 13 colonies...much like border states during the US Civil War. Both sides offered honors of war to defeated troops. Not very terrorist-like. What happened, anyways? Did Americans take your Halloween candy as a kid? Tell you the Easter Bunny was fake? What?? ---------------------------------------------- I have not yet begun to fight! ---John Paul Jones: USS Bonhomme Richard vs HMS Serapis and HMS Scarborough, Sept, 1779 Edited March 7, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
lost&outofcontrol Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 Really? How many terrorist victories can you count? History of suicide bombing So I gather you didn't read the charter. The answer is in there along with the appropriate references to the Koranic verse that justifies their actions vs the Jews. Try reading it... So you believe that this is a clash of religious beliefs and nothing more? Robert Pape appears to disagree with you: Pape claims to have compiled the world’s first “database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 — 315 attacks in all”. “The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” Quote
DogOnPorch Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 So you believe that this is a clash of religious beliefs and nothing more? So you didn't read their little manifesto? Too bad...they give you that answer, too. --------------------------------------------- Do I know what a rhetorical question is?? ---Homer Simpson Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
BC_chick Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 So Muslims want to kill Jews, not because of some modern-day religious land-based conflict, but because they are following the Koran which instructs them to do so. Of course. After all, Muslims have instigated all kinds of genocidal acts against Jews long before the Zionist movement. That's why there were virtually no Jews in the M.E. even prior to Israel. Oh wait... that's not right, is it? There were lots of Jews in the M.E. and nobody was invoking genocidal verses 'till... Oh I'm sure it's just a coincidence. With or without Israel those verses would've started popping up in the 20th century for some reason or another. ------------------ PS... I'm not condoning or even defending any type of religious idiocy. I'm simply pointing out that blaming the entire current situation of the M.E. on Koranic verses is too simplistic and too naive to say the least. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
DogOnPorch Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 PS... I'm not condoning or even defending any type of religious idiocy. I'm simply pointing out that blaming the entire current situation of the M.E. on Koranic verses is too simplistic and too naive to say the least. Hey...talk to Hamas...read it for yourself. Stop shooting the messenger. As for naivity...I'd hazard that I know much more about the situation than you think. ------------------------------------------------------ Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! ---Unknown Hamas terrorist after exploding a mine under an Israeli jeep. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
BC_chick Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) Hey...talk to Hamas...read it for yourself. Stop shooting the messenger. Shoot the messenger? When did I deny Hamas invoking the Koran? Is this what you always do when a flaw in your logic is pointed out to you? Let's try that again.... You claim that killing Jews is a Muslim duty and that it has nothing to do with political tensions that exist in the M.E. I say that it's more complicated than simply placing all the blame on religious verses. As evidence, I pointed out that Jews lived unscathed in Muslim countries prior to the political tensions. IOW, something happened that took Muslims from seeing Jews as perceived inferiors in their midst, to heathens who must be killed. Do you think all of a sudden one day Ahmed said "hey, Hakim, have you read the Koran this millenia? What's this nonsense about Jews being dhimmis who can live amongst us... they're heathens we need to obliterate. Look, Allah says so right here." Or are you so dishonest, even with yourself, that you want to erase centuries of evidence and grasp onto one point in history just so you can eliminate any Jewish culpability in this whole mess? Again... I am not saying they are justified in their murderous views. I am only showing you that rhetoric aside, your argument is deliberately misleading and deeply flawed when examined in a historical context. Edited March 7, 2008 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
DogOnPorch Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 You claim that killing Jews is a Muslim duty and that it has nothing to do with political tensions that exist in the M.E. Regarding Hamas this is true. You assumed I'm refering to all Muslims...for some reason. Hamas's political beliefs ARE bound together with Islam. However if you bothered to read Hamas's charter you'd find a heavy dose of nationalism as well...again bound together with more Islam. You seem to be trying to prove something with blinders on. Go-on...read it. Hamas's goals are connected to the Muslim Brotherhood...and beyond. Both Hezbollah's and Hamas's salute(s) are interesting to say the least. I say that it's more complicated than simply placing all the blame on religious verses. As evidence, I pointed out that Jews lived unscathed in Muslim countries prior to the political tensions. Simply untrue. From the get-go Islam was a movement enforced by the tip of a scimitar. Jews or otherwise were either killed or forced to pay tax as an unbeliever. In more recent times the Arabs in the Levant went on pogroms in 1929 and again in 1936 thanks to the Jew hating Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. This would be the same fellow partially responsible for the Holocaust. Full SS General...Yasser Arafat was his nephew. Gased Jews in Auschwitz with his own hand. Rejected the UN Partition of 1947. Led the call to war with the new state of Israel. IOW, something happened that took Muslims from seeing Jews as perceived inferiors in their midst, to heathens who must be killed. See: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. Or are you so dishonest, even with yourself, that you want to erase centuries of evidence and grasp onto one point in history just so you can eliminate any Jewish culpability in this whole mess? Centuries of evidence about what? Again... I am not saying they are justified in their murderous views. I am only showing you that rhetoric aside, your argument is deliberately misleading and deeply flawed when examined in a historical context. Seeing that you seem to lack the basic historical context yourself, why should I value your opinion, again? ----------------------------------------------------------- The SS interest in the Mufti preceded the war. They financed his uprising here between 1936-39. In 1937, Adolf Eichmann visited this country to reconnoiter the Zionist endeavor and meet the Mufti, but the British allowed him only a 48-hour stay. Eventually Himmler introduced Husseini to Eichmann. Thereafter the mufti became a frequent caller at Eichmann's office. The two got along famously. They shared the goal of exterminating all Middle Eastern Jews. ---Joseph E. Katz Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 The Founding Fathers would easily have been considered terrorists by the occupying Brits.... Not by a long shot. They were considered rebellous, treasonable and criminal but they were considered terrorists....mainly because they didn't randomly commit acts of violence against civilians. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 History of suicide bombing How telling that you consider a suicide bombing a victory....so listed among the things you don't understand are what conventional weapons are and what constitutes a victory. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
lost&outofcontrol Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 How telling that you consider a suicide bombing a victory....so listed among the things you don't understand are what conventional weapons are and what constitutes a victory. Suicide bombing is a historical product of specific conditions. Whether it ultimately leads to victory or not is irrelevant. [...]what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 7, 2008 Report Posted March 7, 2008 Suicide bombing is a historical product of specific conditions. Whether it ultimately leads to victory or not is irrelevant. Maybe you should try a follow the conversation before you interject a non sequitur Terrorism is the normal way to win against disproportionate military strength. Surely there's nothing wrong with wanting to win? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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