How much "airspace" does a landowner own?

[Moonlight Graham]

Not sure excactly where to put this thread. But i have wondered this for awhile: Let's say you own a house on an acre of property. We know an average person can't walk on that private property without your permission as it would be illegal trespassing. However, how much "airspace" above your land do you own, if any? For example, if i had a toy remote controlled helicopter, could i legally fly it over to my neighbour's yard & let it hover a foot from the ground? 10 feet? 100 feet? At what height does it become public airspace?

Edited January 22, 2008 by Moonlight Graham

[blueblood]

Not sure excactly where to put this thread. But i have wondered this for awhile: Let's say you own a house on an acre of property. We know an average person can't walk on that private property without your permission as it would be illegal trespassing. However, how much "airspace" above your land do you own, if any? For example, if i had a toy remote controlled helicopter, could i legally fly it over to my neighbour's yard & let it hover a foot from the ground? 10 feet? 100 feet? At what height does it become public airspace?

It's not trespassing unless the land is posted. And by posted I mean there are No Trespassing signs around. That covers the ground. Air is wide open, spray planes buzz the ground pretty close. A person has no right to airspace above their land. But I don't think a toy helicopter hovering over the ground argument would hold up in court. It's like mineral rights, most landowners don't have them unless it was willed to them or they are geriatrics.

[August1991]

It's not trespassing unless the land is posted. And by posted I mean there are No Trespassing signs around. That covers the ground. Air is wide open, spray planes buzz the ground pretty close. A person has no right to airspace above their land. But I don't think a toy helicopter hovering over the ground argument would hold up in court. It's like mineral rights, most landowners don't have them unless it was willed to them or they are geriatrics.

Blueblood, it is not so simple as putting up a sign. For example, land often carries with it an easement, or someone else's right to cross your land.

In addition, zoning laws restrict what you can do with your land. For example, most landowners are restricted by height bylaws.

As to mineral rights, they are usually - but not always - sold separately from surface rights. The same applies to the atmosphere above your property. In this case, the government typically owns these flyover rights and sells them to airlines. Depending on the area, planes do not have the right to fly at night close to the ground however.

Moonlight, you might want to consider the following property issue: Radiowaves pass through or over most landowners' property without any compensation. To make matters worse, governments in the past just gave away these radiowave rights (making some people extremely rich in the process).

At heart, you raise (naively) the issue of property rights which is at the heart of property law. Needless to say, this is not straightforward at all and modern societies have sophisticated and complex methods to define and enforce property rights. For example, consider the question of intellectual property rights.

I think that it is fair to say that property law and contract law form the base of what is referred to as the "rule of law". Our modern, high standard of living derives essentially from property law and contract law.

This thread should be moved to the Political Philosophy category.

Incidentally, we discussed this question before in another thread about broader questions.

Edited January 22, 2008 by August1991

[Wilber]

When it comes to real aircraft, you are not allowed to fly below 1000 feet over urban areas or 500 feet in rural areas unless in the process of taking off or landing or are engaged in some special function such as crop dusting which are subject to regulations of their own. There are designated practice areas for training which also allow for lower flying such as practicing forced landings.

Check your local bylaws. The nearest RC flying club should be able to give you that kind of info.

[M.Dancer]

However, how much "airspace" above your land do you own, if any?

None.

[blueblood]

Blueblood, it is not so simple as putting up a sign. For example, land often carries with it an easement, or someone else's right to cross your land.

In addition, zoning laws restrict what you can do with your land. For example, most landowners are restricted by height bylaws.

As to mineral rights, they are usually - but not always - sold separately from surface rights. The same applies to the atmosphere above your property. In this case, the government typically owns these flyover rights and sells them to airlines. Depending on the area, planes do not have the right to fly at night close to the ground however.

Moonlight, you might want to consider the following property issue: Radiowaves pass through or over most landowners' property without any compensation. To make matters worse, governments in the past just gave away these radiowave rights (making some people extremely rich in the process).

At heart, you raise (naively) the issue of property rights which is at the heart of property law. Needless to say, this is not straightforward at all and modern societies have sophisticated and complex methods to define and enforce property rights. For example, consider the question of intellectual property rights.

I think that it is fair to say that property law and contract law form the base of what is referred to as the "rule of law". Our modern, high standard of living derives essentially from property law and contract law.

This thread should be moved to the Political Philosophy category.

Incidentally, we discussed this question before in another thread about broader questions.

No, when I pop up a no trespassing sign and I see someone trespassing I can call the cops and they get charged. I can't do that to planes though.

Mineral rights haven't been for sale since the early 1900's. It is too much of a money maker for the provincial government to be given out to people, I think that's malarkey but that's the law.

Mind you things would be done differently in the cities as far as owning land goes for obvious reasons.

In Canada we don't have a complex and sophisticated methods to define property rights, we have none.

Edited January 22, 2008 by blueblood

[Leafless]

Not sure excactly where to put this thread. But i have wondered this for awhile: Let's say you own a house on an acre of property. We know an average person can't walk on that private property without your permission as it would be illegal trespassing.

I don't believe that is factual as there is no private property in Canada.

However, how much "airspace" above your land do you own, if any? For example, if i had a toy remote controlled helicopter, could i legally fly it over to my neighbour's yard & let it hover a foot from the ground? 10 feet? 100 feet? At what height does it become public airspace?

I have heard there is no limit although I don't have a cite to support this.

[Wilber]

No, when I pop up a no trespassing sign and I see someone trespassing I can call the cops and they get charged. I can't do that to planes though.

Sure you can. Civil aircraft have large registration letters on the bottom of one wing. If you report them and they are found to be in breach of regulations, they will be disciplined.

[guyser]

No, when I pop up a no trespassing sign and I see someone trespassing I can call the cops and they get charged. I can't do that to planes though.

Not if the is an easement or prior use has been established. For instance, many lakes in Ontario have right of ways built in that was for the use of farmers to bring the cattle down for a drink.

That is established at my cottage, and also I drive across my neighbours property each and every day and there is nothing they can do about. A NO TRESPASSING sign or not, it is not a legal sign for us, nor anyone visiting.

[blueblood]

Not if the is an easement or prior use has been established. For instance, many lakes in Ontario have right of ways built in that was for the use of farmers to bring the cattle down for a drink.

That is established at my cottage, and also I drive across my neighbours property each and every day and there is nothing they can do about. A NO TRESPASSING sign or not, it is not a legal sign for us, nor anyone visiting.

Personally, I don't care if people go on my land. I've only put up one trespassing sign in my life and that was due to a dispute concerning water drainage (he would come on and plug up a drainage ditch, had to go to court for that one and won), that field had roads surrounding it and I was allowed to post. I also have a road allowance going right through the middle of my cattle pasture. I cannot post that piece of land due to the road allowance, I just hope whoever goes through it closes the gate. There is a few No Trespassing signs in my area and that is actively enforced.

There are roads all around the fields, so they can't pull the whole easement thing. I also said that things are different wherever you go.

Then there's the whole crown property thing. I'm wondering if that's the case at your lake if your guys actually own the property, or it's a crown lease.

Edited January 22, 2008 by blueblood

[guyser]

Then there's the whole crown property thing. I'm wondering if that's the case at your lake if your guys actually own the property, or it's a crown lease.

The whole water thing can be a real beothc cant it? We have had an issue with one of our lanes inhabitants. He thinks it smart to block drainage so that it flows on neighbours yard. Every year in the spring, when of course he isnt there, I unblock his culverts to ensure that he recieves his water like it is supposed to.

My land is owned including the water easement down to the high water mark. This easement (if that is the right word) used to be held by the govt in order for a road that may be put thru. We bought it many years ago, thankfully, since the cost now is ridiculous , almost $80,000 for a patch 200ft X 35.

[Moonlight Graham]

So if i somehow build a small mobile house that could hover a foot off the ground, would i be able go set it up on some nice waterfront property & live there? Heh heh i know these are weird hypotheticals but i'm just trying to get a sense of what property right laws are in terms of airspace. A more realistic example is if i was playing with a boomerang, would i be legally allowed to toss it across my neighbour's backyard all day a few feet off the ground & they couldn't do anything about it?

I guess these issues would depend on the by-laws in your given area of residence?

[Melanie_]

A more realistic scenario, Moonlight Graham, is shaping up in Winnipeg. We are starting to debate a rapid transit gondola system from St. Vital Mall to the University of Manitoba, bypassing the river and the rush hour gridlock ( yes, I know our "gridlock" is minimal compared to other cities, but it still is an issue relative to our traffic). This gondola would pass over a residential area, so the question of whether or not individual homeowners "own" airspace above their property, and how far above, becomes a real issue of contention.

[Wilber]

A more realistic example is if i was playing with a boomerang, would i be legally allowed to toss it across my neighbour's backyard all day a few feet off the ground & they couldn't do anything about it?

Realistic example? Try it and let us know. Better not hit anything. Even more important, better not hit anyone or you will have bigger problems than just breaking a bylaw.

[guyser]

So if i somehow build a small mobile house that could hover a foot off the ground, would i be able go set it up on some nice waterfront property & live there?

Not weird at all.

You dont need to hover off the ground. Go buy a floating house and park it in front of a million dollar (or more) summer residence on the BC coast, or up in Muskoka. Nothing anyone can do about it. I do believe there is something afoot to correct this, but not law yet.

So, you pay $1.5M for a nice secluded cottage , no neighbours around, wonderful views. Only to show up on Friday afternoon to find a houseboat parked 3 metres from the end of your dock. Wave to your new friends.

[Guest American Woman]

When you buy a house you get more than just the bricks and mortar. You are also usually entitled to other things like the air above your home and the dirt below it. Usually, but not always. Make sure you know exactly what rights and restrictions "convey" with ownership.

link

Sounds as if air rights become an issue with co-ops and condos; but for homes, unless there is a clause stating otherwise, sounds as if ownership includes the air. Of course planes have the rights to it within the law, as Wilber has pointed out. Perhaps things are different in Canada, but here one's property is private, whether signs are posted or not. Neighbors can't even shovel the snow from their driveway on your property if you object.

[M.Dancer]

Not weird at all.

You dont need to hover off the ground. Go buy a floating house and park it in front of a million dollar (or more) summer residence on the BC coast, or up in Muskoka. Nothing anyone can do about it. I do believe there is something afoot to correct this, but not law yet.

So, you pay $1.5M for a nice secluded cottage , no neighbours around, wonderful views. Only to show up on Friday afternoon to find a houseboat parked 3 metres from the end of your dock. Wave to your new friends.

I suggested that to my wife. Why buy a house on Lake Joe when for 20K you can get big pontoons and all the lake you want...don't like the lake? Take a trip on the trent. Wonder what Goldie and Kurt are up to? Putt-putt over and see....

[Guest American Woman]

Sometimes water space is restricted too. When I lived across the street from the lake, there was a time when the noise of jet skis was pretty constant-- until they were forbidden by law to ride within a certain distance of land in zoning areas that are strictly residential. Things quieted down considerably after that.

[Moonlight Graham]

Not weird at all.

You dont need to hover off the ground. Go buy a floating house and park it in front of a million dollar (or more) summer residence on the BC coast, or up in Muskoka. Nothing anyone can do about it. I do believe there is something afoot to correct this, but not law yet.

So, you pay $1.5M for a nice secluded cottage , no neighbours around, wonderful views. Only to show up on Friday afternoon to find a houseboat parked 3 metres from the end of your dock. Wave to your new friends.

Yes, that would suck for the landowners. My family owns a cottage in Ontario, and i know that you don't own the shoreline of your property, so basically anyone can run along your beach & you can't do anything about it. Similar to how you can't stop anyone from turning around in your driveway i guess. I don't remember how much of your shoreline is considered "free-game", i don't think its very much.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes, that would suck for the landowners. My family owns a cottage in Ontario, and i know that you don't own the shoreline of your property, so basically anyone can run along your beach & you can't do anything about it. Similar to how you can't stop anyone from turning around in your driveway i guess. I don't remember how much of your shoreline is considered "free-game", i don't think its very much.

Similar to how you can't stop people from walking by the front of your house, too-- on the street or on sidewalks if your neighborhood has them. At least they can't set up camp on your beach; they can't build a campfire or set up picnics, or set up their beach gear. And they can't walk on your property to get to the beach, so really, unless there's a public access near by, you'll mostly have neighbors walking by, and since they want you to respect their space, they'll respect yours too. My family also owns a cottage on the beach and there's never been a problem.

[guyser]

Sometimes water space is restricted too. When I lived across the street from the lake, there was a time when the noise of jet skis was pretty constant-- until they were forbidden by law to ride within a certain distance of land in zoning areas that are strictly residential. Things quieted down considerably after that.

Jet skis , by law , are not to be driven any closer than 30 metres from shore.If they do come closer they must observe the "no wake " rule, roughly 9K per hour, same as any other boat, same as with a water skier being towed.

Moonlight

Yes, that would suck for the landowners. My family owns a cottage in Ontario, and i know that you don't own the shoreline of your property, so basically anyone can run along your beach & you can't do anything about it. Similar to how you can't stop anyone from turning around in your driveway i guess. I don't remember how much of your shoreline is considered "free-game", i don't think its very much.

Not exactly true. Past the high water mark you can own,should you buy it back from the gov. Meaning if the water level drops, anyone can walk by , and use, the new beach that is now showing. The high water mark is the line and anything on the water side is a Fed responsibility, although that may have been downloaded now.

At least they can't set up camp on your beach; they can't build a campfire or set up picnics, or set up their beach gear. And they can't walk on your property to get to the beach, so really, unless there's a public access near by, you'll mostly have neighbors walking by, and since they want you to respect their space, they'll respect yours too. My family also owns a cottage on the beach and there's never been a problem.

au contraire AW, well not here anyway. Usually where there is a large sandy beach the high water mark is way back from said beach. The law says you cannot restrict people from using it, campfire, picnic etc.

Most people are courteous enough to realize and respect someones "property" and move along.

There is an ongoing fight about this in Thunder Beach area (IIRC) and in Wasaga. (Although the last time I was in Wasaga I had no problem watching all the young bikinied women walking past....what was I going to do..yell get off? No way, thats what I was doing!) There are so many 10 foot right of ways in this province that one could be in hot water trying to enforce a No tresspassing rule.

As an aside, anyone in a boat can use your dock should the need arise, basically an emergency. You can be charged should one try to boot them off.Little known too....failing to render aid to a boat in distress. Passed that boat and they waved frantically, they may be out of gas, and you could face a nice charge , methinks in the neighbour hood of $200-$300.

dancer

I suggested that to my wife.

Shes the smart one isnt she ? hehehe.....unless you love "Heartbeat is a Lovebeat" by the De Franco Family , followed by some Celine Dion , followed by Tiny Tim , all of it on a nice 4 hour loop from 2am until 6am blasted at you....

I would have said a bunch of drunken louts drinking on my dock til the wee hours.............but I suspect you would roll over and tell the wife..."I hear a party,I smell a single malt, gotta go! See ya at breakfast"

LOL

[M.Dancer]

I would have said a bunch of drunken louts drinking on my dock til the wee hours.............but I suspect you would roll over and tell the wife..."I hear a party,I smell a single malt, gotta go! See ya at breakfast"

LOL

10 years ago...not so likely now...

[geoffrey]

This gondola would pass over a residential area, so the question of whether or not individual homeowners "own" airspace above their property, and how far above, becomes a real issue of contention.

For real? I'd be pretty pissed if a gondola was going over my house everyday.

[charter.rights]

Not sure excactly where to put this thread. But i have wondered this for awhile: Let's say you own a house on an acre of property. We know an average person can't walk on that private property without your permission as it would be illegal trespassing. However, how much "airspace" above your land do you own, if any? For example, if i had a toy remote controlled helicopter, could i legally fly it over to my neighbour's yard & let it hover a foot from the ground? 10 feet? 100 feet? At what height does it become public airspace?

This first premise on the thread is flawed.

We don't "own" or "possess" any land. We hold "title" which gives us defined rights to that segment prescribed by government statutes. Under those statutes, our rights can be abrogated if it is in the public interests. Also by posting No Trespassing signs we aren't preventing access to the land, since certain people have guaranteed access regardless of our posting. Instead we simply have a right to privacy that cannot be unlawfully invaded, and the no trespassing declarations protect those rights. Further, the front door to your house is generally considered "an invitation to the public" to enter on the land. However, access to your house is limited because of the privacy laws and even police must obtain express consent or a search warrant to enter.

So really we don't own any land, and only have a right to a plow's depth (or foundation) so long as the government doesn't want it. The Land Title system is nothing but a lease based agreement between the government and us that we have alienable rights to the "use" of property, and the privacy thereof. There are no air rights, since air is micro-ephemeral. The space above and outside the house is not subject to the same privacy rights as contained on the land.

[blueblood]

Not weird at all.

You dont need to hover off the ground. Go buy a floating house and park it in front of a million dollar (or more) summer residence on the BC coast, or up in Muskoka. Nothing anyone can do about it. I do believe there is something afoot to correct this, but not law yet.

So, you pay $1.5M for a nice secluded cottage , no neighbours around, wonderful views. Only to show up on Friday afternoon to find a houseboat parked 3 metres from the end of your dock. Wave to your new friends.

They may have the right to pull up next to you on the end of your dock in public waters, but you have the right to be a pest...

reminds me of an icefishing adventure. My shack is all alone in a spot in the lake. All alone for a reason, we don't like company fishing, and most people respect that. There is a little fish shack town at one part of the lake, for people who like people around. Both spots are just as good. Anyhoo, this one individual comes and parks his shack 3ft within ours, just because the shack was ginormous and could block the wind. that was irritating in itself considering it's a big lake and there's enough space etc. So I would just put down my walleye carcasses down the hole and there would be jackfish all over the place, listening to the other guy none the wiser complaining about jackfish was hilarious. He still wouldn't leave, but the whole time he was there he would drill holes every twenty minutes 3ft within our shack until the immediate area looked like swiss cheese. Now my friend has a five year old girl who likes to skate and not listen to old guys get beered up, so we cleared some ice for her, having 12+ inch holes in random spots is pretty dangerous. After stepping in one myself, I impolitely told the jackass to leave. he left but left his shack there, needless to say his shack wound up on shore. He could have tried to move mine, but he'd need a tractor. After his shack wound up on shore he never bothered us again, and when the DNR came, all we said we got rid of a what we thought was an abandonned shack that posed a fire hazard.

If I was in your position, I'd winch in the houseboat to my dock and chain it there. "Oh darn you were floating out there, I thought you were in distress and I was thinking about your safety and keeping the boat intact". That should get rid of your little pest, have some fun with it.