Was the US Right to Declare Independence?

[jbg]

Possibly and that is my point. As a Canadian I would look at the American Revolution's impact on Canada....

And your analysis of that impact?

[jbg]

The U S A may have declared independence but only got it superfically. To this day social climbers like the Bushes - still attempt to suck up to the Queen. ..to this day - I sometimes wonder - If this whole punishing of Islam is because some "Arab" had sex with one of the Royal Brood Mares - Diana - The queen can be spiteful - no way in hell would this ancient Christian put up with some infidel Muslim boinking their genetic property!

From beginning to end you're making no sense. Care to explain?

And as for Bush "sucking up" to the Queen, it's called filial respect. Is that concept foreign to you?

[August1991]

As a Canadian I don't spend much time pondering the US's navel. As a Canadian I would ask, why should I care? That is a game for Americans. As a Canadian I might ponder whether we would now be better off if at some point we had engaged in an armed revolt against Britain and declared independence, rather than taking the course we did. I find it hard to see how but who knows.

Bottom line is, even though we have a different take on some things, we have both done rather well.

I disagree Wilbur. This is the kind of "American" question that I find fascinating. (And BTW, the 1837 rebellion was not serious in Upper Canada. It was a serious matter in Lower Canada. If you don't believe me, I suggest you read the Durham Report.)

Decidedly, the two countries, Canada and the US, have had very different histories.

In 1759, the population of Canada was about 60,000 - almost all French-speaking and almost all Catholic. Then, they became a British colony or governate. The British quickly granted freedom of religious profession to this 60,000 and realized that a deportation, as occurred to the several thousand Acadians, was not feasible.

In 1776, the population of the US was about 2.5 million (including slaves). The idea that Americans in 1776 could have negotiated with London an arrangement similar to what Canadians negotiated in 1867 is unthinkable - I think.

In any case, here's an instance where I'm happy that a negotiated settlement was not possible. The Declaration of Independence is a major documnet in world history. The Articles of Confederation and then the US Constitution are products of the Enlightenment. (The Personal Photo that I use on this forum is a portrait of Voltaire.) The Enlightenment was a tremendous step in human evolution and without the American Revolution, or Declaration of Independence, the Enlightenment could have become a parlour debate. The American Revolution lead to the French Revolution.

IOW, if in 1776, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had not written and signed the Declaration of Independence and instead, they had sought some kind of special terms with the British Crown, the result would have been the same eventually. They would eventually have declared independence violently. They were like Cromwell.

If there is any constant in world history over the past few millennia, it is the desire of individual freedom.

BTW jbg, Benjamin Franklin was born in Boston and Thomas Jefferson born in Virginia. Georges-Étienne Cartier was born in Montreal. Sir John A. Macdonald was born in Scotland. You can draw your own conclusions.

Edited January 12, 2008 by August1991

[Wilber]

I disagree Wilbur. This is the kind of "American" question that I find fascinating. (And BTW, the 1837 rebellion was not serious in Upper Canada. It was a serious matter in Lower Canada. If you don't believe me, I suggest you read the Durham Report.)

I didn't say they weren't serious, I said there wasn't the support for independence and that is why they failed. They were serious and got a serious response. I'm not saying that the American Revolution didn't have an influence on Canada, quite the contrary. The reason today's Canada runs coast to coast was a reaction to American expansion. I find the "American" question interesting in light of how it effected the formation of Canada and how it effects Canadians. I think it was good for Canada and Canadians. I just find it odd that an American would ask if we thought the Revolution was good for Americans. How would I know, I'm not an American.

If you believe Arthur Herman, our two countries are more a product of the Scottish Enlightenment and a photo of someone like Adam Smith might be more apt.

[ft.niagara]

I am posing the question of whether the US should have revolted in 1774-1781, as it did, to forcibly obtain independence or obtain it via the Canadian/Australian/Newfoundland route of gradualism? Many say that the US should have done the latter, in terms of saving life and property, as well as protecting the rights of Loyalists.

I think the US did better by revolting.

I think that it would have been better had they not revolted. If there was same expansion, the present country would have been all of North America. United States of Europe, United States of North America. Continental governance is the direction of the world order.

Another speculation is should there have been an American Civil War, or should the South been allowed to depart. The slave issue would have solved itself in time, or the slaves could have been purchased by the government and then freed as was done in other parts of the world. The South had joined the union voluntarily as individual states, why did they not retain the right to leave?

[Oleg Bach]

I think that it would have been better had they not revolted. If there was same expansion, the present country would have been all of North America. United States of Europe, United States of North America. Continental governance is the direction of the world order.

Another speculation is should there have been an American Civil War, or should the South been allowed to depart. The slave issue would have solved itself in time, or the slaves could have been purchased by the government and then freed as was done in other parts of the world. The South had joined the union voluntarily as individual states, why did they not retain the right to leave?

The way the state are going right now, give it five years and they will be singing God Save The Queen. Look at their leadership - they have none. Every empire peaks and then falls - America is a short lived empire historically in comparison to others. Even without being undermined by the New World Order folks - the out come would naturally be the same. You must remember that in 1776 the rebels were not a bunch of saints.

They were for the most part crimminally minded occultists. Masonics with delluded and fanciful ideas about power - Look at the structure of the city of Washington. It looks like some kid dabbling in witch craft charted out the city. Whats with all the half baked mystic symbols - You don't see the Queen of England creating such weirdness in a seach for power...It's really a very Bizarre nation, who's founders were quite wacky...It was not a revolution - it was more of a break down in a belief system. This was not a Christian nation but a nation founded as I said on fanciful occultism.

[ft.niagara]

The U S A may have declared independence but only got it superfically. To this day social climbers like the Bushes - still attempt to suck up to the Queen. As we saw with the Queens servant Mr. Blair - who - was in all probabilty told to dump George Bush for embarrassing the palace...some think the queen is just some silly figure head - not so - we still have a hand full of ageing QCs that report indirectly to her. She is the most powerful CEO on the planet - the Americans are delluded if they really think they are independent...In and around 1776 when the rebels to measures to distance themselves from mother England - England immediately took counter measures to maintain control..to this day -

I didn't know that the Queen and the royal household were so important in the world. And I thought that they made for just some nostalgic tourist trimmings to the English tourism package, and that any courtesies shown them were out of respect for the English traditions of law, language, and order.

I sometimes wonder - If this whole punishing of Islam is because some "Arab" had sex with one of the Royal Brood Mares - Diana - The queen can be spiteful - no way in hell would this ancient Christian put up with some infidel Muslim boinking their genetic property!

I would never have thought that a frail looking old woman would have ordered a hit squad. I know she didn't like Diana because she wasn't a team player, but she sure kept the royal name in the National Enquirer. What do they say, bad news better than no news.

[ft.niagara]

...It's really a very Bizarre nation, who's founders were quite wacky...It was not a revolution - it was more of a break down in a belief system. This was not a Christian nation but a nation founded as I said on fanciful occultism.

My father was a Mason and my mother in Eastern Star for awhile. They said there was nothing "bizarre" about the organization. Your take on history and the world in general is different to say the least.

[jbg]

Decidedly, the two countries, Canada and the US, have had very different histories.

***************

In any case, here's an instance where I'm happy that a negotiated settlement was not possible. The Declaration of Independence is a major documnet in world history. The Articles of Confederation and then the US Constitution are products of the Enlightenment. (The Personal Photo that I use on this forum is a portrait of Voltaire.) The Enlightenment was a tremendous step in human evolution and without the American Revolution, or Declaration of Independence, the Enlightenment could have become a parlour debate. The American Revolution lead to the French Revolution.

IOW, if in 1776, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had not written and signed the Declaration of Independence and instead, they had sought some kind of special terms with the British Crown, the result would have been the same eventually. They would eventually have declared independence violently. They were like Cromwell.

If there is any constant in world history over the past few millennia, it is the desire of individual freedom.

Excellent post and points. Do you, or does anyone know if the "13 colonies" were administered as a unit with Canada, New Btrunswick and Nova Scotia between 1761 and 1774?

[jbg]

I just find it odd that an American would ask if we thought the Revolution was good for Americans. How would I know, I'm not an American.

As someone interested in history I found it a fascinating statement. It was an adaptation of a discussion on another board, started by someone else, about whether the US was justified in declaring independence (since King George wasn't an absolute ruler and wasn't that bad) and I gave the opening post a Canadian twist.

[M.Dancer]

Excellent post and points. Do you, or does anyone know if the "13 colonies" were administered as a unit with Canada, New Btrunswick and Nova Scotia between 1761 and 1774?

I don't believe the 13 colonies were ever administered as a unit as each had their own charters and separate governors.

[jbg]

I don't believe the 13 colonies were ever administered as a unit as each had their own charters and separate governors.

Were Upper Canada, Lower Canada, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island also administered under separate charters and separate governors?

[margrace]

Let me first state that I believe the US was right to break away, It is a grand experiment.

Now I have a question that may be off subject but it is something that rolls around in my mind from time to time.

The US has assassinated several of its Presidents and other influential people such as Martin Luther King. Up until the horrendous slaughter in Montreal Canada has not had much experience of that. Oh yes we had Darcy McGee but it has always seemed to be blamed on American Fenians.

So why are the two countries so different in this aspect.

[bush_cheney2004]

The US has assassinated several of its Presidents and other influential people such as Martin Luther King. Up until the horrendous slaughter in Montreal Canada has not had much experience of that. Oh yes we had Darcy McGee but it has always seemed to be blamed on American Fenians.

So why are the two countries so different in this aspect.

Not so different....Canada made the list:

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff...assinations.htm

[jbg]

The US has assassinated several of its Presidents and other influential people such as Martin Luther King. Up until the horrendous slaughter in Montreal Canada has not had much experience of that. Oh yes we had Darcy McGee but it has always seemed to be blamed on American Fenians.

So why are the two countries so different in this aspect.

The US didn't assassinate those people. Some nuts did.

Also, the US President is a combination of a monarch and a PM, and thus more of o lightning rod than a mere PM, or constitutional monarch would be individually.

[margrace]

Well Jbg the two Canadian assassinations seem to have been carried out by groups with an agenda. So are you saying that there are no groups in the US with agendas to run things their own way.

[jbg]

Well Jbg the two Canadian assassinations seem to have been carried out by groups with an agenda. So are you saying that there are no groups in the US with agendas to run things their own way.

I don't think Lynette "Squeaky" Frome, Gerald Ford's attempted assassin, or John Lennon's assassin, were in much of a position to run anything.

[M.Dancer]

Let me first state that I believe the US was right to break away, It is a grand experiment.

Now I have a question that may be off subject but it is something that rolls around in my mind from time to time.

The US has assassinated several of its Presidents and other influential people such as Martin Luther King. Up until the horrendous slaughter in Montreal Canada has not had much experience of that. Oh yes we had Darcy McGee but it has always seemed to be blamed on American Fenians.

So why are the two countries so different in this aspect.

Not just McGee....also Pierre Laporte and George Brown....I think there's a couple of others...

[margrace]

Not just McGee....also Pierre Laporte and George Brown....I think there's a couple of others...

Look in Bushcheneys last post it only lists McGee and Laporte who was George Brown

[M.Dancer]

..... who was George Brown

A father of confederation, founder of the Globe and Mail. Shot and killed by a trade unionist.