Oleg Bach Posted January 9, 2008 Report Posted January 9, 2008 Ummm...South Viet-Nam was a real country with real people living in it. Saigon was once called the Paris of the Orient. The new government in Saigon wanted US military assistance vs the Communists who were attacking the South via the Ho Chi Mihn Trail (located in neutral Laos and Cambodia). The first US advisor arrived in 1959.I'd really suggest you read more before spouting off. Perhaps "The 10,000 Day War" by Michael MacLear to start with and then get into more detailed reading after that. You seem to be too young to recall that French Indochina was partitioned after the French left into two countries. I'm not. You're view of history reminds me that you can never place too much value on a good education. --------------------------------------------------------- Although war is evil, it is occasionally the lesser of two evils. ---McGeorge Bundy So a good education would consist of being processed to the point where you side with those that are "educated" and send those un-edcuated inferiours to their death on the battle field FIRST- I am sure you provide a very good history lesson and you enjoy having detailed information - I may be a simpleton but to me it is best not to repeat bad history - and having all the details of the events ordered in your head seems to be a hobbiest mentality - in other words much like Conrad Black and his real expensive tin soldiers - he knows every last move by every last general of every last battle - and where did this education get him - haw? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 9, 2008 Report Posted January 9, 2008 I got my schoolin' at some of Canada's wonderful education institutes. I was a fairly good and well liked student by most accounts. A bit of a 'Flashman' when it came to the ladies. Thanks for the interest. Other than that, you're view on history impresses me about as much as Oprah's view on what a good book is. Is that clear enough? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Union Buster: So...boy...what do you do? John Reed: I write. Union Buster: No...you wrong. ---Warren Beatty's 'Reds' Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 9, 2008 Report Posted January 9, 2008 Oleg Bach: "Death and killing up close" - boy let me get the lubricant..what's with this need to "find plenty of action" - watching people get harmed or killed and getting a charge out of it is sick...not that I read the post - just the tail end of it - but that's enough. I believe kengs333 wanted 'the action'. Perhaps address your post to him. Thanks for your interest. ---------------------------------------------- ...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down... ---Homer Simpson Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted January 9, 2008 Report Posted January 9, 2008 Had the US fought a conventional war, North Vietnam would have been invaded and conquered.That's what I meant by the US fighting Vietnam with both hands tied behind their back. In North Korea we started such an attack but Truman fired MacCarthur midstream. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Posted January 10, 2008 So a good education would consist of being processed to the point where you side with those that are "educated" and send those un-edcuated inferiours to their death on the battle field FIRST- I am sure you provide a very good history lesson and you enjoy having detailed information - I may be a simpleton but to me it is best not to repeat bad history - and having all the details of the events ordered in your head seems to be a hobbiest mentality - in other words much like Conrad Black and his real expensive tin soldiers - he knows every last move by every last general of every last battle - and where did this education get him - haw? Good Ol Flashie.....You went to Tom Brown's School I take it? Now flash was a rogue, a cheat, a coward, a decorated hero and a man of action whose leg ups are the stuff of legend....but was he truly happy? really? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
moderateamericain Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) I'm not a 100% on what you're talking about here. I never said anything about a "knife fight". I'm talking about combat where the American technological advantage is mitigated or a non-factor, and there have been instances in the war in Afghanistan and Iraq this has occurred and the Americans didn't do all that well. Reliance on technology necessitates a loss of more fundamental combat skills, and in all likelihood, if the Americans had to engage in a protracted conventional war with a country like Russia or China, it would eventually boil down who has more men and how good fighters they would make. My guess is that the Chinese and Russians would have an edge in this respect seeing that half the American population is spoiled, pampered and obese. Again I am going to disagree with you. One thing the United States has learned and done well is how to avoid a war of attrition. The reason you feel the us military is ineffective in Iraq is because the military is designed to fight in open warefare. It is not designed for police action. And that is essentially what you are seeing in iraq now is police work. The idea is for mobile forces such as my brothers armored recon battalion to draw fire, achieve fire superiority, and essentially bring down massive fire on your enemy. The reason this does not work in guerilla warfare well is often as not you will have no target to shoot at. IED's or a sniper taking a shot or two then fleeing that sort of thing. Here is what would happen if say China invaded the United States. First they would lose about half there force crossing the Pacific ocean to our far superior naval and air forces. Assuming that did not deter them, they could probably take and hold california, Us forces from texas, would set up on the far side of the Rockies and wait for them to bottle neck themseleves there. Then you would see c130 gun ships and Stealth bombers dropping j-saws absolutely annihalate tank columns through the mountains. It would be a slaughter. And thats if they chinese could bully there way thru are naval assets and we had no allies. Not to mention I would be willing to bet the street gangs in LA would give them absolute hell. lol Edited January 10, 2008 by moderateamericain Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 Good Ol Flashie.....You went to Tom Brown's School I take it? Now flash was a rogue, a cheat, a coward, a decorated hero and a man of action whose leg ups are the stuff of legend....but was he truly happy? really? Nothing like giving a strumpet a sound thrashing...ooops...I've said too much. Well you won't find me clutching the Union Jack and then accepting the VC for my bravery...or will you? I've read all but one or two of Flashy's adventures...great reading. ------------------------------------ Spring! Where did you Eric from?? ---Sir Harry Flashman: The Royal Flash Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Posted January 10, 2008 Here is what would happen if say China invaded the United States. It is still a question whether China has the capability to invade Formosa.....California? The only way that could happen is after Canada defeats the US first.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Posted January 10, 2008 Nothing like giving a strumpet a sound thrashing...ooops...I've said too much. Well you won't find me clutching the Union Jack and then accepting the VC for my bravery...or will you? I've read all but one or two of Flashy's adventures...great reading. ------------------------------------ Spring! Where did you Eric from?? ---Sir Harry Flashman: The Royal Flash McDonald is actually a fairly serious military historian...but the one flashman novel that was made into a movie was absolutely horrendous....worse than a mad madagascar queen with an over active appetite... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 McDonald is actually a fairly serious military historian...but the one flashman novel that was made into a movie was absolutely horrendous....worse than a mad madagascar queen with an over active appetite... Well Malcolm McDowell made a passable Flashman...it was just the rest of the movie... Ever read his book 'Steel Bonnets'? Life on the Scottish border circa 1500. Really worth a look if you haven't. http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/frasergm/sbonnets.htm -------------------------------------------------------- Nixon, Johnson, Armstrong...all Scottish/English border names. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 ...worse than a mad madagascar queen with an over active appetite... Ooooo...yes. From Flashman's Lady. Nearly killed poor Flashy...lol. --------------------------------------------- Your door is a jar...your window, a carrot. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Posted January 10, 2008 Well Malcolm McDowell made a passable Flashman...it was just the rest of the movie...Ever read his book 'Steel Bonnets'? Life on the Scottish border circa 1500. Really worth a look if you haven't. http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/frasergm/sbonnets.htm -------------------------------------------------------- Nixon, Johnson, Armstrong...all Scottish/English border names. Exactly what I was refering to. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 So now you know what motivates people to enter the service! You really are amazing, never for a single second would I in my humble "subpar IQed" way even pretend to know what motivates all members of a 65,000 plus member group. yep, you're right, all of the military members joined so they could, as Arlo Guthrie said, keel keel keel. What's far more important are the things that motivate a nation's population or its government (the two don't neccesarily always agree) to use an army. What its actually being used for is what really counts. In the case of most countries, including ours, only a few people in government ever seem to call that shot. The rest of us have been largely left out of the decision and any discussion Joe Six-pack has been involved with has had more to do with generating a consensus as opposed to building one. I'd like to know who gets to decide when or why an army should be deployed outside its borders in a country like Switzerland. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Oleg Bach Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 What's far more important are the things that motivate a nation's population or its government (the two don't neccesarily always agree) to use an army. What its actually being used for is what really counts. In the case of most countries, including ours, only a few people in government ever seem to call that shot. The rest of us have been largely left out of the decision and any discussion Joe Six-pack has been involved with has had more to do with generating a consensus as opposed to building one.I'd like to know who gets to decide when or why an army should be deployed outside its borders in a country like Switzerland. Joe Six Pack here! I trust the system - as Butta Paraharr does not - so he does NOT inlist..seeing he has seen it all in the nation he left - why would an immigrant join a miltary force controled by some spoiled eilte - all nation have standing armies called cops - and all nations have private armies called military. It's just the trusting white boys from Northern Ontario who actually believe that the rich and powerful are good people - that when a judge is called "Your Honour" - is because he his honourable - as we know not one appointee to the judicary has honour - if they did they would not be appointed to do the bidding of private policy makers - that appoint them - having ranted that - BIG Buisness controls military - all military is employed and deployed for buisness reasons - not for idealogical reasons - if that was the case then they would deploy the military to remove the infestation of crack dealers and gun runners that plauge our cities...who ever gains the most power and controls the money supply governs the military. Politians can not make a move without the approval of their handlers - no more so than a bank can not make a move without the OK of the old lawyer that really is running the place. Who ever worked the hardest and accumulated all material wealth in a nation - has all the power - democracy is theatre - always has been. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) I'd like to know who gets to decide when or why an army should be deployed outside its borders in a country like Switzerland. Amazing. With all the libraries and schools and even the interwebs you still haven't learned anything about Canada or even Switzerland. Okay, in Canada we have what is called parliament. The nice men and woman who work there get there by being elected. That,s when grown ups go out and vote. These nice men and women debate about things like, should Canada help ensure that nilhilistic xenophobic terrorists never get a safe base to attack the west again. And we have had two different governementsdebate that point and voted okay to send volunteers to this poor country to ensure the nice people there are never terrorized by bad men again. In Switzerland they do pretty much the same thing but there, every nice boy grown up also has a machine gun at home so when the army needs him, he can come running.... Edited January 10, 2008 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Oleg Bach Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 Amazing. With all the libraries and schools and even the interwebs you still haven't learned anything about Canada or even Switzerland.Okay, in Canada we have what is called parliament. The nice men and woman who work there get there by being elected. That,s when grown ups go out and vote. These nice men and women debate about things like, should Canada help ensure that nilhilistic xenophobic terrorists never get a safe base to attack the west again. And we have had two different governementsdebate that point and voted okay to send volunteers to this poor country to ensure the nice people there are never terrorized by bad men again. In Switzerland they do pretty much the same thing but there, every nice boy grown up also has a machine gun at home so when the army needs him, he can come running.... You made me laugh - "attack the west again" - well all it takes is one silly immigrant that has been here for ten years to release poison into a crowd and 9 11 repeats it self - as if the videos of Taliban running about with rifles is a terrorist orgainization that will run about the streets of Montreal? Get real - If America has kept the CIA on the up and up --- and not abused and lied to their informants - someone would have told them about the attack on the Trade Centre in advance - they blew it - so in eccense they terrorised themselves by being creeps and loosing the trust of other intelligence agencies and private informants...sometimes paying for information does not work - you must maintain a trust - CIA - is useless without informants. Quote
Wilber Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 In Switzerland they do pretty much the same thing but there, every nice boy grown up also has a machine gun at home so when the army needs him, he can come running.... The bloodthirsty Norwegian militia takes their stuff home as well, including grenades. But they are registered. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Oleg Bach Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 The bloodthirsty Norwegian militia takes their stuff home as well, including grenades.But they are registered. So Norwegians are the lost 13th tribe - they sound a bit like - you know - the cousins to the Palistinians...wonder if the blood thirsty Norwegians still drink rain deer blood and then pack the whole in the neck with mud? Just a thought....still - it would be wonderful if we could get some of the gang bangers in Toronto on the Norwegain plan....they could enlist and be sent home with fully automatic weapons - in no time at all the hood would be sparkling clean...ooops did I say that? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 So Norwegians are the lost 13th tribe - they sound a bit like - you know - the cousins to the Palistinians...wonder if the blood thirsty Norwegians still drink rain deer blood and then pack the whole in the neck with mud? Just a thought....still - it would be wonderful if we could get some of the gang bangers in Toronto on the Norwegain plan....they could enlist and be sent home with fully automatic weapons - in no time at all the hood would be sparkling clean...ooops did I say that? I think it's time to take ol' Yeller out behind the barn...if'n yah knowz what I mean. ------------------------------------------------ All generalizations are false, including this one. ---Mark Twain Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kengs333 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 That's what I meant by the US fighting Vietnam with both hands tied behind their back. In North Korea we started such an attack but Truman fired MacCarthur midstream. The thing about Vietnam is, though, that despite the fact that they were limited in certain respects, this did not mean that they were incapable of fighting a war and winning it. In some respects, the position that the Americans found themselves in was to there advantage since it's easier to co-ordinate a defense than it is an offense. All one has to do is locate large bodies of troops and eliminate them, which was done time and time again, but not as effectively as could have been done. Ready any first-had account/memoir by a soldier who served in Vietnam and there's bound to be complaints about how the "higher ups" didn't know what they were doing. Pinning the blame on politics is not valid in my opinion. Anotherreason why the war was lost was because the Americans were essentially invaders, even if they were trying to defend the country they invaded. You can kill as many of the enemy as you want, but if the people you're doing it for hate you, what difference does it make. MacArthur was axed for good reason. He wanted to attack China and start WWIII. (For those of you who aren't history buffs, the latter statements refer to the Korean War, not the Vietnam War.) Quote
kengs333 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 We tend not to publish films like that. However, if you hop over to this website, you'll find plenty of action videos from the Taliban and al-Qaeda that show plenty of death and killing right up close.http://inhonor.net/videos.php (caution though...real stuff) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Why did Osama fire Martha Stewart? A. She was unable to find fabric that went with stalagmites. No thanks. Quote
kengs333 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 Ummm...South Viet-Nam was a real country with real people living in it. Saigon was once called the Paris of the Orient. The new government in Saigon wanted US military assistance vs the Communists who were attacking the South via the Ho Chi Mihn Trail (located in neutral Laos and Cambodia). The first US advisor arrived in 1959.I'd really suggest you read more before spouting off. Perhaps "The 10,000 Day War" by Michael MacLear to start with and then get into more detailed reading after that. You seem to be too young to recall that French Indochina was partitioned after the French left into two countries. I'm not. Okay, a basic geography lesson about Vietnam or suggested reading isn't something I exactly need considering how much I've read on the topic. However you want to look at it, ultimately, the Americans invaded the country/region to assert it's political agenda. That's all there is to it. Quote
kengs333 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 The Americans did. The peace treaty was signed in Paris in 1973 and was negotiated by Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho. They won the Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts. The result of the treaty was the end of the war and insurgency and respect for the 1954 treaty which had been the Ameican goal from the start. Would you like a bigger shovel? That explains the desperate evacuation of Saigon and the assertion of Communist rule over the entire country. Do I want a "bigger shovel"? Why? Did you find an even bigger one for yourself? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 Okay, a basic geography lesson about Vietnam or suggested reading isn't something I exactly need considering how much I've read on the topic. However you want to look at it, ultimately, the Americans invaded the country/region to assert it's political agenda. That's all there is to it. Oh yawn...here...if you're such a Viet-Nam buff, you'll like this excellent website. Awesome map or what? http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/sea-ao.html He was a Jolly-Green Giant pilot...if I may make a pun... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. ---General Douglas MacArthur Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kengs333 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Posted January 10, 2008 So now you know what motivates people to enter the service! You really are amazing, never for a single second would I in my humble "subpar IQed" way even pretend to know what motivates all members of a 65,000 plus member group. yep, you're right, all of the military members joined so they could, as Arlo Guthrie said, keel keel keel. Well, I have known members of the CF, and that's basically what it boils down to, although they've of course been taught to rationalize it with altruistic and patriotic arguments to make what they're doing seem legitimate and palatible to a public that tends to abhor murder. Even those people who function is support roles are complicit and not above reproach. All of these people could easily find work in a field where killing is not the ultimate goal; they could become decent, peace-loving Christians and devote their lives to improving society and the world. But they choose not to and deserve no respect for taking the easy route to evil; being good always requires more effort and courage than being evil. That's why evil is always prevelant in society. Quote
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