Afghanistan

[M.Dancer]

By your logic....in the 80s I worked for southam, in the 90s I worked for Thomson, therefore I worked for Thomson in the 80s.

Notwithstanding that some member of the groups called the Taliban fought the Soviets in the 80s, there was no unified groups called the Taliban.

.....therefore, while the US provided limited aid to the various groups collectively known as the Muhihadeen, they did not aid a groups that did not exist nor did they specifically aid or train Bin laden.

But I ask, do you think the Mujihadeen needed any encouragement to fight the soviets?

[eyeball]

Your logic indicates you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

But I ask, do you think the Mujihadeen needed any encouragement to fight the soviets?

No. Freedom fighters rarely need encouragement to defend themselves against totalitarianism.

What defies logic is why these same freedom fighters also need to defend themselves against the kindest, gentlest and freest country on Earth.

[Army Guy]

What defies logic is why these same freedom fighters also need to defend themselves against the kindest, gentlest and freest country on Earth.

Because they stopped being freedom fighters, after they had defeated to russians they wanted to improve thier nation so this would not happen again....after the war with the russians they radically changed what they stood for and what they wanted the nation to look like....they converted from freedom fighters to Taliban which open soccer staduims for exicutions, banned women from being seen, heard, from education, from working , from basically everything....but thats not all the banned eduacation materials , music, kites of all things, simple things that kids take pleasure in...they also banned political thinking , speaking ones mind, dictated how you dressed, how you looked, how you acted, and to ensure everyone was kept in line the used terror.....and killings....sounds like someone i want in my neibourhood....

It may go again'st logic....but it did happen...

[Oleg Bach]

Because they stopped being freedom fighters, after they had defeated to russians they wanted to improve thier nation so this would not happen again....after the war with the russians they radically changed what they stood for and what they wanted the nation to look like....they converted from freedom fighters to Taliban which open soccer staduims for exicutions, banned women from being seen, heard, from education, from working , from basically everything....but thats not all the banned eduacation materials , music, kites of all things, simple things that kids take pleasure in...they also banned political thinking , speaking ones mind, dictated how you dressed, how you looked, how you acted, and to ensure everyone was kept in line the used terror.....and killings....sounds like someone i want in my neibourhood....

It may go again'st logic....but it did happen...

Army Guy you are a good soldier- loyal and dedicated and will do his duty I am sure..I salute you! BUT - if there are no real freedom fighters over there then there are surely no freedom fighters over here either. What I am saying is with global facism as the goal of the Germanic Anglos - and don't forget - they own the oil companies - the car companies - the seed stock companies...and they use China and the former Soviet Union as a type of huge slave labour camp to maintain a nasty and arrogant status quo. Who really gives a damn about "education" in Afghanistan - if the west wants to educate that nation it will be more of a conditioning that a true education - the education will consist of keeping the western elite rich and powerful - really! When was the last time you saw our anglo elite actually care about people in a sincere manner? -

If you think that it is only THEM that are kept in line with the use of terror - just try to be a totally independ person in Canada - and not suck up to our controling and cruel elite - you will find yourself sleeping on a heating grate. Now - to put it plainly - everybody uses terror and intimidation to control the working forces..we just have a nicer way of doing things. Coersion is and always will be used to control - and it is in effect terrible and terrifying once you realize we are not free - so don't tell me that the powers that be actually give a damn - they are users..and we are surfs.

[eyeball]

It may go again'st logic....but it did happen...

Doesn't it also go against logic that a shining beacon of democracy would deliberately overthrow a democratic nation and then support the dictatorship they replaced it with causing the deaths of millions and the world of trouble we see in that same region today?

Yes, its incomprehensible, but it did happen.

[M.Dancer]

Doesn't it also go against logic that a shining beacon of democracy would deliberately overthrow a democratic nation and then support the dictatorship they replaced it with causing the deaths of millions and the world of trouble we see in that same region today?

Yes, its incomprehensible, but it did happen.

Which shining beacon and which democratic nation?

[eyeball]

America and Iran.

Source

Edited February 5, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

America and Iran.

Source

You are implying that Iran was a democratic nation. That is incorrect. Mossadegh rose to power because his political opponent was assassinated.

Once in power he proceeded towards totalitarianism by closing the parliament and banning the secret ballot. In a referendun without a secret ballot, he won 99% of the vote. Given that threats of violence against anyone opposing him, that ain't surprising.

And how does this effect the deaths of millions?

Edited February 5, 2008 by M.Dancer

[eyeball]

If only democracy could have been left to flourish on its own in Iran. America should and probably will go down in history as being THE biggest shit-disturber of all time, bar-none.

[M.Dancer]

If only democracy could have been left to flourish on its own in Iran. America should and probably will go down in history as being THE biggest shit-disturber of all time, bar-none.

Absolute revisionist horse crap. Iran would have become the North Korea of the mid east.

[eyeball]

The CIA's fears that there might ultimately be some blowback from its egregious interference in the affairs of Iran were well founded. Installing the Shah in power brought twenty-five years of tyranny and repression to the Iranian people and elicited the Ayatollah Khomeini's revolution...

...This misguided "covert operation" of the US government helped convince many capable people throughout the Islamic world that the United States was an implacable enemy.

And that's the way the cookie has been crumbling ever since.

[eyeball]

Iran would have become the North Korea of the mid east.

This is pure speculation.

[M.Dancer]

This is pure speculation.

Disolving parliament having opposition leaders conviently die, threatening opposition and banning the secret ballot are in your mind consistent with a democratic regime, but the are more consistent with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

[eyeball]

Mossadegh rose to power because his political opponent was assassinated.

Once in power he proceeded towards totalitarianism by closing the parliament and banning the secret ballot. In a referendun without a secret ballot, he won 99% of the vote. Given that threats of violence against anyone opposing him, that ain't surprising.

Here we go again...

Source please. Everything I've read contradicts what you've said. Why am I not surprised?

I guess it goes without saying you think Chalmers Johnson is an agent of North Korea or something?

Edited February 5, 2008 by eyeball

[eyeball]

Ten years ago, the other so-called superpower, the former Soviet Union, disappeared almost overnight because of internal contradictions, imperial overstretch and an inability to reform. We have always been richer, so it might well take longer for similar contradictions to afflict our society. But it is nowhere written that the United States, in its guise as an empire dominating the world, must go on forever.

[Army Guy]

really! When was the last time you saw our anglo elite actually care about people in a sincere manner? -

Even if i bought into your theories, which i don't.... we are in Afgan now and the germanic anglos are footing the bill so to speak, should we not make the best out of the situation and do what we can with what we've got....

If you think that it is only THEM that are kept in line with the use of terror - just try to be a totally independ person in Canada - and not suck up to our controling and cruel elite - you will find yourself sleeping on a heating grate. Now - to put it plainly - everybody uses terror and intimidation to control the working forces..we just have a nicer way of doing things. Coersion is and always will be used to control - and it is in effect terrible and terrifying once you realize we are not free - so don't tell me that the powers that be actually give a damn - they are users..and we are surfs.

You still have the freedom to chose do you not, work , pay your taxes, obey the law. if you chose not to do the above then yes your freedoms will be some what suspended....and most likely you'll sleep on a grate...but that is a choose you make ...not them....explain to me how your not free in ever sense of the word...does someone tell you whom to worship,when to pray,what to wear, what to look like, when to work, where to go, where not to go, what to spend your money on, who to marry, how many kids to have , what sex of children you should have, what ocupation you'll have , what kind of car you'll own, if you can own one, who to hate, who to like, ... Has anyone cut your hands off for going to school, threatened your family, executed any of your family, forced you to watch executions, peeled off all of your skin, and left you out in the sun...cut your tongue off for talking to a NATO soldier, blown up you or your family because of your beliefs....

Sorry i don't see why you would compare us and them....we've never been the same, never...apples and oranges...And if all i'll ever be is a surf or a smurf....then so be it...but i've traveled much of the world, and there is very few nations i'd like to call home...and Canada is one of them....So when our national Athem is played i stand, i salute, placing my hand over my heart and thank god i'm Canadian, that my family does not face the same problems as those that are not as lucky...

[M.Dancer]

Here we go again...

Source please. Everything I've read contradicts what you've said. Why am I not surprised?

I guess it goes without saying you think Chalmers Johnson is an agent of North Korea or something?

Why am i so unsurprised you casually forget what is inconvient, namely your fawning support of dictators?

This is the way he did it. Having unconstitutionally dissolved the Majlis, Mossadegh ordered a national referendum to judge his act, crying: "The will of the people is above law." The 1906 Iranian constitution (which Mossadegh as a young revolutionary helped put across) requires a secret ballot. Mossadegh scrupulously ordered up all the paraphernalia: voting tents, police guards, army tanks. In fact, he ordered a double set of everything—one for Teheran's vast Sepah Square, another for Baharestan Square. Anyone voting yes could do so "secretly" in Sepah Square, but to vote no, one had to go to Baharestan. Government employees were let off work and in mobs descended on Sepah Square. So did other mobs assembled by the outlawed Tudeh Communist Party, which also would like to keep Parliament dissolved. In the happy crush, people did not have to show their identity cards or have their hands smeared with indelible ink. Many voted three or four times.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...promoid=googlep

[eyeball]

The uncredited author of your article doesn't cite any sources or references so its just that, an article...amongst thousands.

These guys have a rather innocuous non judgemental view don't you think?

Muhammad Mussadegh , 1880-1967, Iranian political leader, prime minister of Iran (1951-53). He held a variety of government posts (1914-25) but retired to private life in protest against the shah's assumption of dictatorial powers in 1925. He returned to government (1944) as a member of parliament and quickly established himself as an opponent of foreign interference in Iranian affairs. He successfully fought Soviet attempts to exploit the oil fields of N Iran and led the movement to nationalize the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. He became immensely popular, and after parliament passed his oil nationalization act (1951), the shah was forced to appoint him prime minister. Mussadegh's refusal to negotiate a settlement with the British alienated the shah and members of Iran's ruling class. A political crisis developed, and in Aug., 1953, Mussadegh's government was overthrown by the shah and his followers. After serving three years in prison, Mussadegh spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

Source

He successfully fought Soviet attempts to exploit the oil fields of N Iran

What?!? Now he sounds like your kind of guy.

[eyeball]

Mohammed Mossadegh

Looks like lots of info here.

[M.Dancer]

The uncredited author of your article doesn't cite any sources or references so its just that, an article...amongst thousands.

After taking the additional step of abolishing the Constitutional guarantee of a “secret ballot”, Mossadegh’s victory in the national plebiscite....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

Early in 1953 the parliament extended Mossadegh's dictatorial powers for another year. The prime minister demanded that the shah be stripped of power.

The dissension between pro- and anti-Mossadegh forces reached a climax during the summer of 1953. The premier dissolved the lower house on the basis of a plebiscite, held from August 3 through 10, in which he suspended the secret ballot. The shah, who opposed many of Mossadegh's policies, including his uncompromising stand on the oil question, dismissed the prime minister on August 13. Mossadegh refused to yield his office, his followers rioted against the royalists, and on August 16 the shah fled to Rome.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/geoghi...ies/I/iran.html

It's because it's common klnowledge.

[eyeball]

Hey Morris, I find it particularly interesting your Time magazine smear of Mohammed Mossadegh occured two days before the CIA overthrew him.

[M.Dancer]

Hey Morris, I find it particularly interesting your Time magazine smear of Mohammed Mossadegh occured two days before the CIA overthrew him.

Yeah ...go figure, a newsmagazine reporting news....must be a zionist plot eh|?

[eyeball]

It's because it's common klnowledge.

So's this.

Eventually the CIA's role became well-known, and caused controversy within the organization itself, and within the CIA congressional hearings of the 1970s. CIA supporters maintain that the plot against Mossadegh was strategically necessary, and praise the efficiency of agents in carrying out the plan. Critics say the scheme was paranoid and colonial, as well as immoral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

[M.Dancer]

So's this.

And you have a problem with the CIA helping Iran depose of someone who violated their own constitution and was well on the way of establishing a dictatorship?

[eyeball]

I have a problem with the CIA helping to establish a dictatorship in Iran. I have an even bigger problem with this knowing the CIA's actions triggered a chain of events resulting in 9/11 and worse.

By the way, did catch this?

When asked to name the country that stands out as a negative force in the world, the U.S. was cited most often (52 per cent). Iran was next at 21 per cent.

Source