Benazir Bhutto Dead

[jdobbin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22406555/

Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto died shortly after being seriously wounded in an attack after a rally in the city of Rawalpindi, news agencies reported on Wednesday.

Very scary news about how things are breaking down in Pakistan.

[margrace]

Well that isn't much different than the discussion on here about the cuts to women's programs, threaten the men's suppuriority and what happens?

[Argus]

Well that isn't much different than the discussion on here about the cuts to women's programs, threaten the men's suppuriority and what happens?

Wow. Talk about a one track mind. Hey, it must be Harper's fault that Bhutto is dead! Those dirty conservatives will stop at nothing!

In fact, Bhutto's death had nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her being a member of the elites who was maneuvering for power. And like the other elites in Pakistan she was ruthless, corrupt and cared more for her own group of core supporters than the country as a whole.

[margrace]

Ha Ha Ha, just what I said. Don't step on the "OLd Boys Club's Toes" they get all riled up. After all men are so much smarter than women aye.????

[BubberMiley]

And like the other elites in Pakistan she was ruthless, corrupt and cared more for her own group of core supporters than the country as a whole.

I guess one might consider showing respect for a person whose body hasn't even cooled yet to be hypocritical if one rarely has respect for the living.

[Wilber]

Ha Ha Ha, just what I said. Don't step on the "OLd Boys Club's Toes" they get all riled up. After all men are so much smarter than women aye.????

Argus has the gist of it, you should do a little reading up on Pakistani politics and the Bhutto family. Doesn't bode well for the future though.

[myata]

Yet another sad manifestation of a well known truth some of our politicians cannot seem to grasp: supporting friendly despotism will never solve any problems; it'll only breed another extremism, of a different kind.

[Guest American Woman]

...Bhutto's death had nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her being a member of the elites who was maneuvering for power. And like the other elites in Pakistan she was ruthless, corrupt and cared more for her own group of core supporters than the country as a whole.

"The platform of Bhutto's left-leaning Pakistan People's Party promised more funds for education, health, and environmental protection. Cheap loans would help small businesses create jobs, she said." link

How can that possibly be perceived as not caring about the country?

[M.Dancer]

"The platform of Bhutto's left-leaning Pakistan People's Party promised more funds for education, health, and environmental protection. Cheap loans would help small businesses create jobs, she said." link

How can that possibly be perceived as not caring about the country?

Perception and reality are often quite different. The one thing that yoiu can't say about the Bhuttos is they were frugal humanitarians. Living in the lap luxary and power was what they knew best, taking 10% off the top came second...

[jdobbin]

Doesn't bode well for the future though.

The situation is an explosive one for Pakistan's stability. At some point, it will be even more than the their military can control through squeezing the people. Already the have abandoned the provincial provinces bordering Afghanistan to the Taliban.

[M.Dancer]

. Already the have abandoned the provincial provinces bordering Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Ummmm....that would imply that at one point the Pakistanis had control over the tribal areas, which they never had. I recall that the army has been trying to asser control, although that may be futile.

[Drea]

Perception and reality are often quite different. The one thing that yoiu can't say about the Bhuttos is they were frugal humanitarians. Living in the lap luxary and power was what they knew best, taking 10% off the top came second...

How ridiculous!

Does any politician live in a run down trailer in some trailer park somewhere, living off fried gnats and sleeping with cardboard for blankets?

Maybe we should force all politicians to be dirt poor and live off the streets to "prove" they are working in the best interest of the people. Do you think Harper is going to like living under an overpass in a cardboard box, just to "prove" he is a "people's" leader?

Now do you see how ridiculous your "she had money!" ranting is? Sheesh.

I will look into this further (because I believe AW is correct, the woman was working on ducation, health, the environment and small business development) when I have some time later.

[jdobbin]

Ummmm....that would imply that at one point the Pakistanis had control over the tribal areas, which they never had. I recall that the army has been trying to asser control, although that may be futile.

Pakistan never controlled the region politically. They did try to crush any attempt to create a mini-state that threatened Pakistan as a whole. The government tried to buy peace by letting the Taliban strike across the border in Afghanistan and then offering sanctuary to its fighters back in Pakistan. This has increasingly made Pakistan itself unstable.

It gets quite alarming when a nuclear state looks as wobbly as Pakistan does right now.

We often worry about a war with Iran. I sometimes wonder if Pakistan could be the country where the world has to rush troops to some day.

Edited December 27, 2007 by jdobbin

[Sulaco]

"The platform of Bhutto's left-leaning Pakistan People's Party promised more funds for education, health, and environmental protection. Cheap loans would help small businesses create jobs, she said." link

How can that possibly be perceived as not caring about the country?

Because we know Bhuttos prior history. For instance during her tenure the tensions between India and Pakistan were far higher as she used Kashmir for political gain. Her administration was overthrown for corruption more than for anything else. Do you believe everything a given politician says?

[runningdog]

Because we know Bhuttos prior history. For instance during her tenure the tensions between India and Pakistan were far higher as she used Kashmir for political gain. Her administration was overthrown for corruption more than for anything else. Do you believe everything a given politician says?

your proof? She said herself that none was more investigated than herself and she was NEVER convicted of corruption or anything else. Go back to your fox newscast.

[Guest American Woman]

Do you believe everything a given politician says?

Do you believe every allegation that's made against politicians?

How ridiculous!

Does any politician live in a run down trailer in some trailer park somewhere, living off fried gnats and sleeping with cardboard for blankets?

Maybe we should force all politicians to be dirt poor and live off the streets to "prove" they are working in the best interest of the people. Do you think Harper is going to like living under an overpass in a cardboard box, just to "prove" he is a "people's" leader?

Now do you see how ridiculous your "she had money!" ranting is? Sheesh.

I will look into this further (because I believe AW is correct, the woman was working on education, health, the environment and small business development) when I have some time later

I think only "leftist" politicians have to live in run down trailer parks.

From everything I'm reading and hearing, Bhutto was pro-democracy, against the extremist Islamic influence, and well loved by the people.

Edited December 27, 2007 by American Woman

[M.Dancer]

your proof? She said herself that none was more investigated than herself and she was NEVER convicted of corruption or anything else. Go back to your fox newscast.

She never stood trial because she went into exile and she only returned after the charges were dropped, and they were dropped so she could return.

[Sulaco]

your proof? She said herself that none was more investigated than herself and she was NEVER convicted of corruption or anything else. Go back to your fox newscast.

This is where you are wrong. Fox has always viewed Bhutto for rose colored glasses. They were Bhutto-boosters. But because - because what? - because I criticize someone you like and presumably you're of the correct minded left I must be repeating FOX talking points. Yup... I guess I must.

We aren't talking about a criminal case. We are talking about the fact that the main reason for Bhutto's overthrow was the curruption under her tenure. Even if she wasn't personally responsible she was in charge of a government that was viewed by its own peole as terribyl corrupt. Furthermore, as I stated, Pakistan and India were constrantly on the verge of war under her watch. Reproachment didn't begin until Musharaff took power.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Sulaco

[Sulaco]

Do you believe every allegation that's made against politicians?

I think only "leftist" politicians have to live in run down trailer parks.

From everything I'm reading and hearing, Bhutto was pro-democracy, against the extremist Islamic influence, and well loved by the people.

Well - take it from those who paid attention to her while she actually was in power - she was not the cats pajamas that she is now made out to be. US state department was constantly complaining about Bhutto coddling Islamists. State was also aware of the fact that she riled up Kashmir to keep herself from being voted out - Kashmir in turn led to further growth in Islamic extremist militias.

I guess because she is "left-of-centre" she gets a pass. Now don't get me wrong. I'd rather see democratic reform in Pakistan. But Bhutto was not the one to lead it. She was a self-serving widow of an powerful politician from a corrupt political family. As most coups in the 20th centure the army was more fed up with her corruption than anything else and the coup, as is usually the case (see Argentina, Turkey, Chile and Brazil), was supported by large segments of the middle class.

Finally:

Policy on Taliban

The Taliban took power in Kabul in September 1996. It was during Bhutto's rule that the Taliban gained prominence in Afghanistan. She viewed the Taliban as a group that could stabilize Afghanistan and enable trade access to the Central Asian republics, according to author Stephen Coll.[13] He claims that her government provided military and financial support for the Taliban, even sending a small unit of the Pakistani army into Afghanistan.

More recently, she took an anti-Taliban stance, and condemned terrorist acts committed by the Taliban and their supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutt...licy_on_Taliban

You can quibble with the use of Wiki but there is no question that Bhutto was in power while Taliban used Pakistan as a base of operations.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Sulaco

[kitchenerlrt]

It's very sad that she has died, and I think many people will remember her as a Martyr. RIP Ms. Bhutto.

[Sulaco]

Let's all admit it. In general the US media loved her. Once exiled she was a woman who played the west well. She made appropriate anti-Taliban comments. She dressed well. She was also a "victim" of a MONSTER named Pervez who was supported by BUSH. There was something in that for everyone. FOX boosted her on the basis of her anti-terror remarks, because she was a muslim woman "who dared speak out" and because she dressed well, other networks because they could use her as a slanted critique of Bush's policies. Heck - the Dems used her in this way explicitly.

The truth is far murkier - but we do always forget the past when it's politically expedient.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Sulaco

[M.Dancer]

Let's all admit it. In general the US media loved her. Once exiled she was a woman who played the west well. She made appropriate anti-Taliban comments. She dressed well. She was also a "victim" of a MONSTER named Pervez who was supported by BUSH. There was something in that for everyone. FOX boosted her on the basis of her anti-terror remarks, because she was a muslim woman "who dared speak out" and because she dressed well, other networks because they could use her as a lsanted critique of Bush's policies. Heck - the Dems used her in this way explicitly.

The truth is far murkier - but we do always forget the past.

Yes and she was also very attractive and the camera loved her. Despite her corruption and lust for power, given the fact that Pakistan doesn't have a lot of notables to offer, her loss will be felt around the world.

[Sulaco]

It's very sad that she has died, and I think many people will remember her as a Martyr. RIP Ms. Bhutto.

And this is how words get devalued. Statesman, martyr, hero, SAINT!

[capricorn]

Is anyone really surprised at this turn of events. The writing was on the wall. She herself revealed the death threat and who she thought was responsible.

"She alleges those who want her dead include remnants of the regime of coup leader Gen. Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, who oversaw the mujahideen that fought the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, then became Taliban and Al Qaeda. She alleges some ruling party members, including its chief, were behind Thursday's attack.

Bhutto and Musharraf are rivals, but both are moderates keen to combat religious extremism and Musharraf has signed an amnesty to quash graft cases against Bhutto."

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/269852

The last attempt was on October 18, 2007.

"Around midnight there was an explosion along Bhutto's route—according to early reports, a suicide bomb attack. Bhutto was not wounded, but more than 100 bystanders were killed or injured. She was quickly whisked to the safety of her Karachi residence. It's unclear who was reponsible for the blasts. A tribal militant, Baitullah Mahsud, had threatened to "welcome" her with violence. Islamists have been angered by her outspokenly pro-U.S. and antimilitant stance. On the plane headed to Karachi, Bhutto talked about her enemies. "These people, who are they? They don't scare me, and we all know who controls them. Anyway, it is all in God's hands." She did not peer out the window as the plane descended. Her hands were raised in silent prayer until the plane touched down. She traveled through the city on an open truck, without bulletproof glass."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/56740

About the corruption charges, they were not dropped but Musharraf offered her amnesty from the charges so she could return from exile.

"Among the charges in Pakistan are allegations that the Bhuttos skimmed $2m in commissions from a 1990s deal to buy thousands of duty-free Ursus tractors from Poland.

---

A second case involves a Dubai-based Pakistani gold bullion dealer who allegedly paid $10m to a Bhutto company in the British Virgin Islands for the exclusive right to import gold, again losing the country millions of dollar in duties. Zardari, who has served six years on corruption charges, is also accused of evading duties on the import of a £55,000 armoured BMW.

---

A fourth case, involving Swiss banks, is moving towards a trial in Geneva. In this the couple are accused of taking kickbacks for the award of contracts to two Swiss firms employed to stop customs fraud. In 2003 a Swiss magistrate found the couple guilty, sentenced them to six months in prison and ordered them to pay $12m back to the Pakistan government."

My question is if Bhutto's life was in constant danger, why was a deputy leader of the PPP never appointed who could take over and calm the party faithful.

[Moxie]

Pakistan is quickly becoming an Islamic State, Al Qaeda and the Taliban have joined forces. Civil War is on the horizen. She was nothing more than a politician, she is neither a martyr or a hero. She's just dead.