Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[Black Dog]

And fortunately for Muslim women the Left don't have their way. Or this sort of thing would be legal.

For all your strawman shopping needs, visit this fucking thread. Pick one up now for the holidays.

Somebody please: find me a citation from somebody who can be reasonably construed to be an influential or important leftist supporting violence against women.

md00

Come on. Show me where the man of the household is killing their daughters due to shame on the family. This has happened with a Sikh family in Vancouver where a sikh family sent out a hit on their daughter when she ran away to India.. but I'm not aware of any other circumstances.

Jesus Christ. There's countless examples of men who murder their wives and kids that have nothing to do with cultural or religious imperatives, yet you're curiously silent about those types of incidents. Why does domestic violence and misogyny only matter to you when the perpetrators are brown?

[mikedavid00]

I'm not saying that western treatment of women is the same as eastern treatment of women. Eastern treatment of women is apalling in so many ways.

I'm not saying that western treatment of women is the same as eastern treatment of women.

Radical Muslim men consider themselves ultimately responsible for the conduct of the womenfolk. This outlook is rooted in a medieval ethos that treats women as nonpersons, unable to decide for themselves what they should wear, where they must go and what they must accomplish in life. If their conduct is seen as contravening this austere religious outlook, they are invariably subjected to abuse. -- http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/s....html?id=162281

[JerrySeinfeld]

For all your strawman shopping needs, visit this fucking thread. Pick one up now for the holidays.

Somebody please: find me a citation from somebody who can be reasonably construed to be an influential or important leftist supporting violence against women.

md00

Jesus Christ. There's countless examples of men who murder their wives and kids that have nothing to do with cultural or religious imperatives, yet you're curiously silent about those types of incidents. Why does domestic violence and misogyny only matter to you when the perpetrators are brown?

Better question: why does THE ROOT CAUSE only NOT matter to YOU when the perpetrators are brown?

Edited December 12, 2007 by JerrySeinfeld

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not saying that western treatment of women is the same as eastern treatment of women. Eastern treatment of women is apalling in so many ways. It doubles my appreciation of having the good luck to be born into the society in which I was.

All I am saying is that this cannot be automatically attributed to an "honour" killing without further proof. This case is high profile, and if it was, I am sure it will come out. There is so much interest in it that I doubt it will be swept under the rug.

Killings happen for a number of reasons, none of which are right and none of which make sense to those not involved or even to those who are involved. What does matter is that the father called to say he killed. He is in jail. This leads me to believe that justice will be done. It also leads me to believe that the father will not get off lightly just because of cultural differences if that is used as a defense.

I agree with all that you say. I cannot imagine, as a woman, living in a society where I'm forced by men to dress in a certain way, where my father and brother have control over me, where I would be considered the guilty one if raped. It's all unbelievable, so when some on here say 'Christian fundamentalists don't treat women so great either' I find it really upsetting. There is no comparison. And most importantly, a woman married to such a man here can divorce him with the support of society.

I sure didn't mean to imply that this could "automatically" be attributed to an honor killing, but I sure do see it as a possiblity, or at least in the same mindset. I also wonder if the reality of honor killing puts the idea of killing in some mens' minds; if it somehow diminishes such a murder.

I do think it's extremely important to look into the possibilty, and as such, cannot understand why some are questiong why the coverage is referring to the fact that they are Muslims, as if this in no way would have any bearing on this tragedy.

Yes, killings happen for a number of reasons. I'm not denying that by any stretch of the imagination. But when I read about threats, fear, and finally murder, I find it difficult to accept that this is just the case of a father snapping.

Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, her friend and classmate said: "She got threatened by her father and her brother. He said that if she leaves, he would kill her."

Her classmates said Ms. Parvez had been staying with a friend because of tension at home and returned on Monday only to retrieve some clothing. Link

So she was threatened with death if she left home, she left home, returned home for her things, and was murdered.

[Black Dog]

Better question: why does it only NOT matter to YOU when the perpetrators are brown?

English please.

[mikedavid00]

Jesus Christ. There's countless examples of men who murder their wives and kids that have nothing to do with cultural or religious imperatives, yet you're curiously silent about those types of incidents. Why does domestic violence and misogyny only matter to you when the perpetrators are brown?

Laughable.

You seem so detatched from reality. What city do you live in? North Bay Ontario? A murder isn't a murder. Legally a murder has motive. You can murder to save someone from pain, or because you were sleepwalking, or because you hate that person etc.

Usually people who kill their kids do it to rob their wives of the happiness that they stold from them.

But I challenge you to find me a direct killing of a man and his daughter through strangulation. Yes can't do it can you. This has happened in BC with the father sending a hit out on his daughter, but when else does this happen?

Never that's when.

These crimes of solid households where the men are killing their daughters are outrageous and sickening.

Even more outrageous are you guys defending the father and trying to liken this killing with a mother who has post pardon stress dissorder and drowned their baby. two different things. But to think you would even liken the two is sickening.

[Fortunata]

Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, her friend and classmate said: "She got threatened by her father and her brother. He said that if she leaves, he would kill her."

Her classmates said Ms. Parvez had been staying with a friend because of tension at home and returned on Monday only to retrieve some clothing. Link

So she was threatened with death if she left home, she left home, returned home for her things, and was murdered.

Yes. What, though, about wives whose husbands have kept them from leaving with the same threat? And if they do leave, do kill? It isn't honour at that point it is control. This whole thing smacks more of control (or lack thereof) than honour. I haven't read anything about her shaming her family by behaving the way she did, it was more not yielding to their religious beliefs. Which may be so intertwined that it becomes one issue.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes. What, though, about wives whose husbands have kept them from leaving with the same threat? And if they do leave, do kill? It isn't honour at that point it is control. This whole thing smacks more of control (or lack thereof) than honour. I haven't read anything about her shaming her family by behaving the way she did, it was more not yielding to their religious beliefs. Which may be so intertwined that it becomes one issue.

Husbands and wives both threaten and kill. I'm not denying that. But it's not condoned by any segment of our society in any way, shape, or form. It is were considered by some to be ok, don't you think it would be an even greater problem? This is my point. I do think honor killing is a problem that needs to be addressed. I do think the mindset could very well lead to murders that maybe don't fit the criteria of an "honor killing" 100%. I think that could be the case in this situation.

But to answer your question, when a husband or wife threatens to kill the other if they leave, and then does actually kill them, I don't think it would be dismissed as their "snapping in the heat of the moment." I think it would be perceived as first degree murder.

[Canadian Blue]

Even more outrageous are you guys defending the father and trying to liken this killing with a mother who has post pardon stress dissorder and drowned their baby. two different things. But to think you would even liken the two is sickening.

You said that the biggest concern to you is the financial costs, get a fucking grip. The fact that you yourself defended the father is sickening in itself.

[Black Dog]

md00

These crimes of solid households where the men are killing their daughters are outrageous and sickening.

I agree. There's hundreds of such incidents every year. Will you be starting a thread on each of them?

...between 1991 and 1999, the majority of child and youth homicides (88%) were committed by parents

(Table 2.1). Specifically, more than half of the children and youth were killed by fathers (45% by biological fathers and 8% by step-fathers), over a third were killed by mothers (34% by biological mothers and 1% by stepmothers) and the remaining children and youth were killed by siblings (5%) and other family members (7%). In large part, this pattern remained when 26 years of data from the Homicide Survey were examined. For example, in the time period, 1974 to 1999, children and youth were more likely to be killed by fathers (52% by biological fathers and 6% by step-fathers) than by mothers

StatsCan

[Guest American Woman]

md00

I agree. There's hundreds of such incidents every year. Will you be starting a thread on each of them?

StatsCan

I find that an interesting question in light of your having started a thread stating that the majority of Americans are "dumb as rocks" for believing in evolution creationism. Seems to me rather odd that you would find that such a terrible thing as you equivalize a father killing his child because she went against his religious beliefs.

If this were an American Christian who killed his daughter for the same reasons this man did, I'm sure you'd have all kinds of things to say.

Edited to change "evolution" to "creationism."

Edited December 12, 2007 by American Woman

[Fortunata]

Husbands and wives both threaten and kill. I'm not denying that. But it's not condoned by any segment of our society in any way, shape, or form. It is were considered by some to be ok, don't you think it would be an even greater problem? This is my point. I do think honor killing is a problem that needs to be addressed. I do think the mindset could very well lead to murders that maybe don't fit the criteria of an "honor killing" 100%. I think that could be the case in this situation.

I agree with you about abuse and killing of women in some cultures being accepted is unacceptable. Unbelievable actually. This is something that Human Rights Watch and other organizations have been addressing for a long time, with unknown successes (probably very little).

But to answer your question, when a husband or wife threatens to kill the other if they leave, and then does actually kill them, I don't think it would be dismissed as their "snapping in the heat of the moment." I think it would be perceived as first degree murder.

Agreed. It happens all too often, however. Some men think they can get away with it just because they are men and the women and/or children are theirs (and I'm not trying to slam all men here). It comes down the the same thing ultimately, however, our society condemns actions like that. No excuses.

[Canadian Blue]

American woman I'd suggest looking over the wording of that post. If the majority of Americans believe in evolution they are hardly as dumb as rocks.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[Michael Hardner]

Again, I think this thread is another example of people trying to discuss intelligently with MD when that's not the best approach.

But I challenge you to find me a direct killing of a man and his daughter through strangulation. Yes can't do it can you. This has happened in BC with the father sending a hit out on his daughter, but when else does this happen?

Never that's when.

He actually seems to be saying that the worst thing about this crime was the method. Even the 'BC father putting a hit out on his daughter' isn't as bad as this crime, presumably because it was done by somebody whose family immigrated less recently...

[Guest American Woman]

American woman I'd suggest looking over the wording of that post. If the majority of Americans believe in evolution they are hardly as dumb as rocks.

Oops. That should read creationism, right?

[Argus]

This strikes me as the core of the discussion here.

If some angry Christian guy kills his daughter or his wife, then we say that he's an abusive wife-beater.

If some angry Muslim guy kills his wife or daughter, then we say that he's a typical Islamic patriarch.

Christian guys don't kill their daughters and sisters. In every case I'm aware of where a father killed his kids it has been in a crazed, suicidal state where he then kills himself. In almost all cases the murder of the children is done because he's murdered his wife and doesn't want to leave the kids alone. That's twisted thinking, but that's what you get when you're crazy.

As for brothers killing sisters - you know, I can't think of a case - ever. I mean, I suppose it must have happened at some point in time, but I can't think of a single case in all the years I've been following the news. Brothers don't kill sisters. They just don't.

But it's different among these cultures. You can not only see brothers and fathers killing these girls out of righteous indignation at the damage they've done to the "family honour" but entire extended families getting together, making the decision, and then coldly and carefully planning the murder and carrying it out. And such actions do not automatically cause revulsion in their communities in the same way such murders would in ours. In fact, Surjit Singh Badesha is still a very respected member of his community in BC despite an abundance of very publicly available evidence which says he arranged to have his niece tortured and killed for marrying someone the family disapproved of.

This is what really outrages people here. The inhumanity of that kind of culture. And then people ask why are we importing people with that kind of cultural background, that kind of barbarousness and brutality, to Canada?

[Black Dog]

I find that an interesting question in light of your having started a thread stating that the majority of Americans are "dumb as rocks" for believing in creationism. Seems to me rather odd that you would find that such a terrible thing as you equivalize a father killing his child because she went against his religious beliefs.

If this were an American Christian who killed his daughter for the same reasons this man did, I'm sure you'd have all kinds of things to say.

I'm not trying to minimize that aspect of the crime. Honour killings are a serious problem and are a vile manifestation of the misogyny which is all to often religiously mandated. Clear enough?

md00 is still a nutter, though.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

The goalpost moving that happens in these things is to be expected, (although MikeDavid has made a comic opera with his condemnation of strangulation versus the upright man in BC who properly hired a hit man, but I digress) as is the response from the reasonable:

Christian guys don't kill their daughters and sisters. In every case I'm aware of where a father killed his kids it has been in a crazed, suicidal state where he then kills himself. In almost all cases the murder of the children is done because he's murdered his wife and doesn't want to leave the kids alone. That's twisted thinking, but that's what you get when you're crazy.

How is THIS rationale different enough from the rationale that the latest criminal father had ?

How is if different enough to actually tie this latest crime to immigration as the cause ?

Dear family and friends."

"I could not allow those beautiful children to grow up in the manner she would raise them," said the letter, printed neatly on a legal pad, released in part by Lake Mary police.

SP Times

As for brothers killing sisters - you know, I can't think of a case - ever. I mean, I suppose it

must have happened at some point in time, but I can't think of a single case in all the years I've been following the news. Brothers don't kill sisters. They just don't.

But it's different among these cultures. You can not only see brothers and fathers killing these girls out of righteous indignation at the damage they've done to the "family honour" but entire extended families getting together, making the decision, and then coldly and carefully planning the murder and carrying it out. And such actions do not automatically cause revulsion in their communities in the same way such murders would in ours. In fact, Surjit Singh Badesha is still a very respected member of his community in BC despite an abundance of very publicly available evidence which says he arranged to have his niece tortured and killed for marrying someone the family disapproved of.

It's different because you decided that it just "is".

This is what really outrages people here. The inhumanity of that kind of culture. And then people ask why are we importing people with that kind of cultural background, that kind of barbarousness and brutality, to Canada?

Will you do as MikeDavid has done, and please outline what kind of father-daughter killings are acceptable ?

Thanks.

[Argus]

Argus,

The goalpost moving that happens in these things is to be expected, (although MikeDavid has made a comic opera with his condemnation of strangulation versus the upright man in BC who properly hired a hit man, but I digress) as is the response from the reasonable:

How is THIS rationale different enough from the rationale that the latest criminal father had ?

How is if different enough to actually tie this latest crime to immigration as the cause ?

SP Times

It's different because you decided that it just "is".

Will you do as MikeDavid has done, and please outline what kind of father-daughter killings are acceptable ?

Thanks.

No, I don't think you're actually interested. Your efforts at glossing over of the difference between the actions of a crazed individual who is condemned by all and a cold blooded, premeditated murder often committed by groups of family members and supported by the extended community shows you're really only into fending off any accusations against the cultures of brown people. Which is about what is to be expected from a PC guy like you.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

Your efforts at glossing over of the difference between the actions of a crazed individual who is condemned by all and a cold blooded, premeditated murder often committed by groups of family members and supported by the extended community shows you're really only into fending off any accusations against the cultures of brown people. Which is about what is to be expected from a PC guy like you.

All you need to do is substantiate your facts and I'll change my tune:

"murder often committed by groups of family members and supported by the extended community "

All I ever ask is that people back up what they say. Some do, and others do not.

This 'PC guy' tag hasn't been substantiated yet, though it has been tried. I agree with Auguste1991 that the background of the alleged killer can't be ignored, but there's a wide gulf between that position, and one where we can say that immigration needs to be reconsidered.

[guyser]

That's disgusting.. Shame on you.

You have no idea what it means to be a hero.

Shame on me?. Was I the one who defended the father...you know "sort of" understand his actions? Nope not me, you on the other hand....

Tragic, sad, pitiful, horrific all are valid to describe what occured.

By the way, it is post partum depression.

[capricorn]

As for brothers killing sisters - you know, I can't think of a case - ever. I mean, I suppose it must have happened at some point in time, but I can't think of a single case in all the years I've been following the news. Brothers don't kill sisters. They just don't.

Here's one that happened in Ottawa last year.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006...ng-elmvale.html

His sister's fiancee died of his wounds. Sadiqi was charged with 2 counts of first degree murder.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006...25/shooter.html

[guyser]

Perhaps the trial will expose the truth as to what transpired in the days and weeks preceeding this killing.None of it will justify what happened. There cannot be justification.

I would be curious to see his house , to get a gauge on how religious he is. Perhaps he held the hijab in some elevated esteem and was one of the sect that desires to have their women wear it since Islam does not mandate they wear one. Some of the ubers do. We may find out.His house could show insight that perhaps he wasnt so devout , that there may be articles that are considered minor transgressions in his particular muslim belief.

It could all come down to the perfect storm. Who knows? Was his house being repo'd? Was his business failing, money troubles?, his wife (no mention I saw) having an affair?

Certainly no justification no matter what his stress level is.

The brother is the key. It seems he may have felt he had been neutered by society POS. His holdover on his sister was his only power in life. Maybe his sisters ability to integrate into NA society caused him anguish and between he and his dad,ramped up the anxiety to a level where this crap occurs.

But we will have to wait. No doubt dad will serve time, plenty of it. No lawyer worth his salt will try any religious defence , that is if he read the supreme court striking that down.

Whatever occured leading up to her death will not be just cause for her dads actions.Period. But I would like to know.

[August1991]

This is a human tragedy and but it's now in the public domain. I don't think you'll find a forum or place in Canada where it has been discussed so openly, with all viewpoints expressed, as here.

Thank God for articulate, intelligent BD:

If this case is an indictment of how Muslim society treats it's women, what does the fact that Robert Pickton was able to kill as many as 49 women say about ours?

By chance, the private letters of Pickton became public at the same time as this murder occurred.

Pickton apparently was a religious fanatic who wanted to rid the world of evil women. How, in a sense, is that really different from the thinking of this father?

That seems to be the Leftist take on this. A Christian misogynist is no different from a Muslim misogynist. They're both misogynists and women suffer violence.

There's countless examples of men who murder their wives and kids that have nothing to do with cultural or religious imperatives, yet you're curiously silent about those types of incidents. Why does domestic violence and misogyny only matter to you when the perpetrators are brown?

This too seems to be a Leftist critique of the Right: Why does the Right immediately pick on the fact that the father was a Muslim? Did the Right (the media) describe Pickton as a Christian?

I cannot imagine, as a woman, living in a society where I'm forced by men to dress in a certain way, where my father and brother have control over me, where I would be considered the guilty one if raped. It's all unbelievable, so when some on here say 'Christian fundamentalists don't treat women so great either' I find it really upsetting. There is no comparison. And most importantly, a woman married to such a man here can divorce him with the support of society.

I agree with AW and IMHO, this point gets closer to the "Leftist" error - if I can call it that. (See below.)

What, though, about wives whose husbands have kept them from leaving with the same threat? And if they do leave, do kill? It isn't honour at that point it is control. This whole thing smacks more of control (or lack thereof) than honour. I haven't read anything about her shaming her family by behaving the way she did, it was more not yielding to their religious beliefs. Which may be so intertwined that it becomes one issue.

The Leftist viewpoint again. This father is no different from Christian/Western fathers who kill their children.

-----

There's a difference between a Western father who kills his daughter and a Muslim father who kills his daughter. And I think the difference matters (and I'll frame this in Leftist style analysis).

When a Western father kills a child/wife, it is usually understood that the man grew up in a violent family, he was abused himself. The behaviour of the wife or children is not relevant to the violence. At most, people ask: "Why didn't she leave him?" Or, "Why didn't she protect the children?" The classic story is a drunk father with a history of violence who regularly swats anyone close for no apparent reason. The attention focusses on the father and his behaviour.

When a Muslim father kills his daughter (almost always a daughter unless the son is gay), the behaviour of the daughter is critical to understanding the violence. If the daughter was less rebelious or more respectful, the violence would not have occurred. There's no alcohol involved. The attention focusses on the daughter and her behaviour.

For some reason, the Left has made Political Correctness into a New Religion. In this New Religion, everyone whatever their origin should be treated the same. According to this New Religion, it is "sinful" to treat people of different origins differently. Well, I'm sorry. We are different and Muslims are not like Christians and they should be treated differently. More pertinently, you cannot use western eyes to understand Eastern ways. Western Civilization and the Scientific Method did not appear by magic. They were not spread equally around the world at the same time.

Many people in today's world are living in the 15th century, or even the 9th cntury. They can use elevators and cell phones, but they are medieval or Dark Ages. (One has only to watch a 1950s sitcom to have a glimpse into our own recent past. Imagine going back several centuries.) We share a world with these people and we have to live with them. We in the West must defend our values vigourously. We are different.

So, I see a big difference between Robert Pickton killing 50 prostitutes and this father killing his daughter. OTOH, there is a similarity. Women still suffer violence.

Edited December 13, 2007 by August1991

[cybercoma]

Jesus Christ. There's countless examples of men who murder their wives and kids that have nothing to do with cultural or religious imperatives, yet you're curiously silent about those types of incidents. Why does domestic violence and misogyny only matter to you when the perpetrators are brown?

Domestic violence and misogyny should matter all the time, but it's particularly disturbing when someone has this fantastical belief in an invisible man that is going to make that someone suffer for an eternity after death if he doesn't take control of his family and make his daughter cover her head with a scarf. It's particularly disgusting when this person perhaps thinks they're doing the right thing, or even feel justified in their actions, based on what they believe (through faith rather than reason) an invisible man wants.

That's why this is particularly interesting and I don't think it would matter if they were Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. It just so happens that Muslims happen to carry out this type of brutality and abuse towards women with such zeal.

Not to mention the fact that this just so happens to be the domestic violence/misogyny story of the week in the news. I'm sure most people would be just as appalled regardless of the race of the people involved. But if it's not in the national news, it's not something we're all going to discuss.