Is Scientology dangerous?

[marcinmoka]

At least those in the Interior Ministry and domestic security services agree.

The ministers plan to ask Germany's domestic intelligence agency to begin preparing the necessary information to ban Scientology.

The agency has had Scientology under observation for a decade on allegations that it “threatens the peaceful democratic order” of the country.

Link : Globe & Mail

And this leads to the question, what constitutes a religion? I hope the requisites are more than a circle of followers and a tax free status.

[M.Dancer]

Scientology has more incommon with Weight Watchers, Amway and Heaven's Gate than an organized traditional religion....

Whether it is more dangerous than Jehova's Witnesses that forbid blood tranfusions, or more dangerous than some old order protestant sects that have had the misfortune of distilling to closely their gene pool is another story.......but where as Weight Watchers will take lighten your load, The Church of El Ron will lighten your wallet. It costs big bucks to be auditted of all that umwanted alien rays....

Oh....and they are nuts.

[Drea]

So they take people's money -- how is that different from any other religion?

If people want to pay money to be part of some cult who are we to say they cannot. Millions of people give money to Falwell type cults everyday -- yet no one is asking if it's a "real" religion.

Keep your money -- eradicate religion!

[M.Dancer]

So they take people's money -- how is that different from any other religion?

If people want to pay money to be part of some cult who are we to say they cannot. Millions of people give money to Falwell type cults everyday -- yet no one is asking if it's a "real" religion.

Keep your money -- eradicate religion!

You know a church that charges for communion? That has a fee schedule in order to practise their creed?

The difference is they charge to believe......You don't get to Tom Cruise level of nuttiness with dropping 100s of thousands.....

[Drea]

so what?

If crazy people (Tom Cruise) want to give their money to Scientology who are we to say it is "wrong".

Just like the little old lady who gives over her life savings to a televangelist. He is a bastard, but he CAN dupe people out of their money legally. If he can do this why can't Scientologists?

There is no proof that Scientology is wrong just as there is no proof that nutty televangelists are wrong, so why the discrepancy? Why is it ok for some, but not for others?

....tithing... 10% of one's income isn't it? I do not know as I have not stepped foot inside a church for a long long time.

[M.Dancer]

There is no proof that Scientology is wrong............

The agency has had Scientology under observation for a decade on allegations that it “threatens the peaceful democratic order” of the country.

Apples and oranges

[DogOnPorch]

There is no proof that Scientology is wrong...

Heheh...Xenu brought the population of his empire to Earth using a fleet of spaceships identical to the Douglas DC-8.

C'mon...get serious....even Islam had the forethought to keep their 'winged beasts' in context with the story.

-----------------------------------------

Simultaneously, the planted charges erupted. Atomic blasts ballooned from the craters of Loa, Vesuvius, Shasta, Washington, Fujiyama, Etna, and many, many others. Arching higher and higher, up and outwards, towering clouds mushroomed, shot through with flashes of flame, waste and fission. Great winds raced tumultuously across the face of Earth, spreading tales of destruction.

---L. Ron Hubbard

[Drea]

... and an unknowable entity supposedly created human beings out of dirt and blood... your point?

The notion of a "god" in the sky watching over our every move is no more "realistic" than aliens taking over the earth.

Who are you (or me) to say they are wrong. One cannot disprove the existence of god or aliens. Trust me, I have been trying to disprove the "god" notion for a long time.

Can't be done. Those who want to believe in a skydaddy will do so no matter how illogical it is. Those who believe in aliens will do so no matter how illogical.

Scientologists are just as nutty as Christians who are just as nutty as Muslims who are just as nutty as Jews who are just as nutty as Buddists who are just as nutty as Scientologists...

LOL

Edited December 7, 2007 by Drea

[marcinmoka]

Who are you (or me) to say they are wrong. One cannot disprove the existence of god or aliens.

Granted, I've seen a philosopher using formal logic to try and prove the existence of god, but he defined "God" as an uncaused-cause, sort of akin to the notion of the singularity in physics.

Guess it depends on your definition of God.

As per L.Ron.Hubbardism, dangerous, I dunno. I generally seem them as wierdos trying to shove pamphlets in my face concerning the evils of psychiatry or offers of 'free stress tests'. However that is only MY OWN view of the matter.

Substantiated or not, there have been many reports of extremely coercive practices, brainwashing, blackmail, espionage, attempts to infiltrate government services and unlawful and unethical, if not just plain disturbing attempts to wreck all dissenters and critics with their 'fair game' policy. And if certain governments can substantiate these actions, and do deem this a threat to their nation, than so be it. It is their purpose to protect their citizens from threats.

[kengs333]

Scientology has more incommon with Weight Watchers, Amway and Heaven's Gate than an organized traditional religion....

Whether it is more dangerous than Jehova's Witnesses that forbid blood tranfusions, or more dangerous than some old order protestant sects that have had the misfortune of distilling to closely their gene pool is another story.......but where as Weight Watchers will take lighten your load, The Church of El Ron will lighten your wallet. It costs big bucks to be auditted of all that umwanted alien rays....

Oh....and they are nuts.

None of these exist in Germany anymore, to my knowledge.

[kengs333]

Germany's constitution is designed to inhibit the growth of any ideology that has fascist and cult-like tendancies for obvious reasons; this is, moreover, something that was imposed upon the Germans by the Allies after the war, but until now it has worked reasonably well. Arguably, German is now a more democratic country and less inclined to have some sort of ideological faction usurp power than any of the countries that "defeated" it in WWII.

I recall one time John Travolta spazzing out on camera about Germany being "fascist" for treating Scientology the way it does. Talk about stupid. Well, just about everyone in Hollywood is stupid, so I guess he was being really stupid.

[sunsettommy]

Drea:

There is no proof that Scientology is wrong just as there is no proof that nutty televangelists are wrong, so why the discrepancy? Why is it ok for some, but not for others?

Do you know how that organization got started?

He he he............

One of my brothers was a scientologist for many years.He was brainwashed and nearly blew his health over it.Skinny as a rail and bad teeth.

He finally got out along with his wife who was also a scientologist.They were tired of being in the organization.Tired of the poor pay and lack of respect they got for the years of doing significant work.

The organiztion is a menace to society.

Edited December 8, 2007 by sunsettommy

[Drea]

Substantiated or not, there have been many reports of extremely coercive practices, brainwashing, blackmail, espionage, attempts to infiltrate government services

...your point?

Haven't Christians and Jews already done this? (brainwashing, blackmail, infliltrating gov't)

Isn't the fear of Muslims doing this the very thing that the rightwing gets up in arms 98% of the time?

No religion is "better" than another. If we "allow" one religion, we are obligated to "allow" all others. No matter how it disgusts us, if people want to follow who are we to say they are wrong. They is no possible way to disprove a religion. By their very nature, religions are unproveable and therefore all of them are suspect in my opinion -- give me proof! give me facts! give me logic!

I would have made a good Vulcan.... too bad no one can prove the existence of Vulcans.

It (religion) is all fiction (like Vulcans) made up in someone's mind. Some religions were fiction over 2000 years ago, some are brand new fiction. But the fact remains that they are fiction .

[buffycat]

It (religion) is all fiction (like Vulcans) made up in someone's mind. Some religions were fiction over 2000 years ago, some are brand new fiction. But the fact remains that they are fiction .

Yep... couldn't say it better myself!!

Keep up the good work Drea!!

(I wonder whether the FSM is allowed in Germany... )

[Guest American Woman]

It (religion) is all fiction (like Vulcans) made up in someone's mind. Some religions were fiction over 2000 years ago, some are brand new fiction. But the fact remains that they are fiction .

So it's a fact that religions are all fiction, eh? Wow. How does it feel to have all the answers?-- To know for a "fact" that so many people who believe are wrong; some who, I dare say, are more intelligent and worldly than you are. What gives you the authority to declare for a "fact" that all religions are "fiction?"

[Drea]

Thanks Buffycat!

The noodler would only be allowed if his noodly appendages were made into inocuous bow tie pasta!

Poor Germans. Because of Hitler they have no freedom. Because of what he did to the Jews (and gays, and gypsies and mentally handicapped people... these others seem to rarely get a mention....) Because of this, they do not allow free speech of any kind, there is no longer a discenting voice allowed.

Stalin killed many many more yet Russians are not vilfied in the same manner (other manners, commie etc. but never on the same "level" as Hitler-the-Jew-killer).

Two generations of Germans have now grown up with the stain of Hitler on their hands so they are ultrasensitive. "We are not like the Germans of that era! We will not tolerate *this* or *that*... isn't that exactly what Hitler did? Demand compliance and intolerance? Hmmm seems they are decending back to fascism (intolerance of differences) by disallowing "free speech".

By the way, I watched Naomi Wolf the other night... about what all countries decending in facsim have in common... Check it out.

Video

Rightwingers ---> don't watch this video! Avoid it at all costs as it will only cause your blood pressure to rise to dangerous levels. Not because you will believe what Ms. Wolf says, but because you will be sooo angry that she is right.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Drea

[marcinmoka]

No religion is "better" than another. If we "allow" one religion, we are obligated to "allow" all others.

Yes, some religions are better than others. In business, you would do a cost benefit analysis, i.e how much public good is done relative to how much public bad. Suicide cults, such as David Koresh's or the Temple of the Sun/Heavens GAte firmly would fall into the latter.

Haven't Christians and Jews already done this? (brainwashing, blackmail, infliltrating gov't)

Infiltrating? I thought a persons Christianity was more often a promotional tool, and I highly doubt that members of said churches were running out with classified documents and handing them off to the Archbishop of Canterbury or whatever.

Haven't Christians and Jews already done this? (brainwashing, blackmail, infliltrating gov't)

Isn't the fear of Muslims doing this the very thing that the rightwing gets up in arms 98% of the time?

So wait, I need a double take. In this above statement, you claimed that

a) Christians and Jews ARE GUILTY

Muslims are inexplicably "targeted' for NO REASON, and should be absolved of these accusations, of which only Christians and Jews can be implicated.

Well, no point in arguing if you have already made up your mind.

I wonder whether the FSM is allowed in Germany.

I guess so, since I am yet to hear of the church of FSM being implicated in murder cases.

Edited December 8, 2007 by marcinmoka

[buffycat]

Thanks Buffycat!

The noodler would only be allowed if his noodly appendages were made into inocuous bow tie pasta!

Poor Germans. Because of Hitler they have no freedom. Because of what he did to the Jews (and gays, and gypsies and mentally handicapped people... these others seem to rarely get a mention....) Because of this, they do not allow free speech of any kind, there is no longer a discenting voice allowed.

Stalin killed many many more yet Russians are not vilfied in the same manner (other manners, commie etc. but never on the same "level" as Hitler-the-Jew-killer).

Two generations of Germans have now grown up with the stain of Hitler on their hands so they are ultrasensitive. "We are not like the Germans of that era! We will not tolerate *this* or *that*... isn't that exactly what Hitler did? Demand compliance and intolerance? Hmmm seems they are decending back to fascism (intolerance of differences) by disallowing "free speech".

By the way, I watched Naomi Wolf the other night... about what all countries decending in facsim have in common... Check it out.

Video

Rightwingers ---> don't watch this video! Avoid it at all costs as it will only cause your blood pressure to rise to dangerous levels. Not because you will believe what Ms. Wolf says, but because you will be sooo angry that she is right.

Thanks for the link Drea, I'll check out the vid!!

Oh and LMAO wrt the 'bow tie pasta' :lol:

I agree with you about Germany and the German people. I have often wondered why Stalin is no where near as vilified, or how this has not been transferred to the Russian people as the recollection of Hitler's crimes are heaped onto the German populace. Odd to say the least.

[Drea]

So it's a fact that religions are all fiction, eh? Wow. How does it feel to have all the answers?-- To know for a "fact" that so many people who believe are wrong; some who, I dare say, are more intelligent and worldly than you are. What gives you the authority to declare for a "fact" that all religions are "fiction?"

Until proven otherwise, yes.

Logic dictates that proof be required for everything. Why does this not include religion?

AW, no one knows what happens after a person dies. Could be nothingness, could be we become "engery" balls, could be floating on clouds looking down on earth.

COULD BE does not constitute fact. Not one single human being has come back from the dead to tell us what happens. Ever.

So yes, if you believe that we go to "heaven" or "hell" you are believing fiction as there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that there is an "afterlife" in "god's kingdom".

The other morning I got up too early and 100 Huntley Street was just ending "Secure your place in heaven, pray to Jesus" was what the fellow was saying. He has no proof of this, he has no proof that anyone (good, bad or ugly) will go anywhere after they die. It is all conjecture, all made-up, all fiction.

[Drea]

So wait, I need a double take. In this above statement, you claimed that

a) Christians and Jews ARE GUILTY

Muslims are inexplicably "targeted' for NO REASON, and should be absolved of these accusations, of which only Christians and Jews can be implicated.

I will wait while you undo yourself from the knot you twisted yourself into...

Ready?....

Ok, good.

you got that from what I typed?

Here, I will put it in easier terms for you: Jews and Christians already run the country, we all know this. Harper, etc all love to trot out "good ol god and jesus".

We call ourselves (I don't but many do) a Christian country. Jews run the finances, Christians run the rest. And most people are all pretty much ok with this arrangement.

Ok, are we still on the same page?

Good.

Muslims (according the rightwing) are trying to implement their laws and religious teachings.

Still with me?

People fear the muslims and don't want them implementing their crap in this country. Include me in that group!

I did not defend muslims by saing they are "targeted' for NO REASON, and should be absolved of these accusations, of which only Christians and Jews can be implicated.

These are your words, not mine.

Again... Jews and Christians have already done it (inflitrated gov't, etc) and the Muslims haven't yet but want to.

In my opinion -- really everyone on the board ought to know this about me by now -- all religion should be eradicated from the earth. Anyone who believes in an unknowable entity for the purpose of securing a "place" after they die is living in a fantasy world, a fictional fantasy world that cannot be proven.

Well, no point in arguing if you have already made up your mind.

I guess so, since I am yet to hear of the church of FSM being implicated in murder cases.

Doughheads (pun intended), FSM is a joke. It is not meant to actually be believed in. Sheesh.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Drea

[Lazarus]

Funny thing about Scientolgy and L. Ron Hubbard is, he basically started it as a joke and to prove a point.

Back in the fifties, he was being interviewed by a magazine writer/reviewer who took exception at the then large advance Hubbard's publisher had paid him. This was at a time when most Sci-Fi writers and magazine scribes were getting paid per word published. Basically it was publish or starve and the size of your pay cheque depended on the whims of your editor. You could submit a 5000 word manuscript only to find it had been whittled down to a mere 1000 words when publish and you got paid on those 1000 words.

Anyways, the writer in question basically accused Hubbard of being over-paid for his up coming work in advance, to which Hubbard answered, that if he really wanted to make a lot of money for little work, he would create a religion. It then became a case of "Oh yeah? Prove it." So Hubbard penned Scientology, never really expecting it to take off as it did. At best he figured some fringe loonies may latch on to it and was slightly bemused at its acceptance. However, he forgot one basic tenet of all religions, that while it is relatively easy to start one, it is damn near impossible to maintain control of them once they take off.

Hubbard lost control of Scientology mainly to his son who ran with it and built it up to what it is today. Hubbard was basically relegated to Prophet status but had no say in the runnings of the church or how his name was used. It has been reported though unconfirmed that he had denounced the whole movement as a joke.

That the church fleeces its members is nothing knew, the majority of churches and religions do that. The Roman Catholic church has made a pretty good living for itself for almost 2000 years demanding donations, offerings and tiths from its members, many who can ill afford them. The Church of Later Day Saints, the Mormons are another good example of that as are the Jerry Farwells. But is the Church of Sceintology dangerous? Probably, but no more so then any other church or religion.

In closing here are a few words from a contemporary of L. Ron Hubbard, Robert A. Heinlien.

Notebooks of Lazarus Long

History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.

One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh.

Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent-it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

[Drea]

"The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history."

That is THE most sensible paragraph of words strung together I have ever had the pleasure to copy and paste.

Thanks Lazarus.

[Guest American Woman]

Until proven otherwise, yes.

I see. Believers have to "prove" their beliefs, but non-believers don't have to prove theirs. Their beliefs are facts. Because you said so.

Logic dictates that proof be required for everything. Why does this not include religion?

Look up the definition of "faith." Furthermore, just because we don't have the means/knowledge/ability to prove or disprove something at this time doesn't mean it's not possible. For a long time it wasn't possible to prove the earth wasn't flat, but that didn't turn out to be a fact because no one could disprove it, eh?

AW, no one knows what happens after a person dies. Could be nothingness, could be we become "engery" balls, could be floating on clouds looking down on earth.

You're right. Could be. Therefore, to state as "fact" that religious beliefs are "fiction" is wrong.

COULD BE does not constitute fact. Not one single human being has come back from the dead to tell us what happens. Ever.

I agree that "could be" doesn't constitute fact, but I've never said people's beliefs were "fact." They are beliefs, same as your beliefs. Neither is "fact."

So yes, if you believe that we go to "heaven" or "hell" you are believing fiction as there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that there is an "afterlife" in "god's kingdom".

I never said I did believe that. But if I did, they would be my "beliefs." There is absolutely no proof that there isn't an afterlife either. So to think that there isn't anything is nothing more than a "belief" that there isn't. It's not a fact.

The other morning I got up too early and 100 Huntley Street was just ending "Secure your place in heaven, pray to Jesus" was what the fellow was saying. He has no proof of this, he has no proof that anyone (good, bad or ugly) will go anywhere after they die. It is all conjecture, all made-up, all fiction.

And you have no proof that he's wrong. Your belief that you don't go to heaven is also conjecture. It's as much "fiction" as the beliefs of the man you are quoting. If he says his beliefs are fact, then he's he's wrong too; you're both wrong for stating your beliefs are facts.

[Drea]

Ah yes AW, but I do not twist myself or my child in knots trying to "please" some unknown entity that may or may not be real.

[Guest American Woman]

Ah yes AW, but I do not twist myself or my child in knots trying to "please" some unknown entity that may or may not be real.

Good for you. I don't either. Not sure what your point is.