Is Scientology dangerous?

[Wilber]

Ridiculous. I also don't believe in UFO's or the Loch Ness monster. So I have to back up my opinion of disbelief everytime someone comes up with a whacky theory? If my senses can't detect it, I don't need to provide proof of it's nonexistence.

As you say, it is your opinion which does not make it fact. There is a difference between not believing in something and maintaining it does not exist.

There are a lot of things your senses can't detect which will kill you without you even knowing it. Something as simple as carbon monoxide for instance. It killed people for many thousands of years before anyone new CO existed. The scientific community once thought malaria was caused by "bad air".

Any claim made without proof is just an opinion, or at best a theory.

[buffycat]

Rue, as usual you entirely miss the point, twist what I said and pile a load of junk onto these pages which need not be there.

I'll make it simple for ya Rue: Why the laws for specifically 'denial' (definition please) of the 'Holocaust'?

I think, what bothers some is the overwhelming focus on the terrible fate of Jews under the Hitler regime, often left out are others - despite what YOU have to say. Now and again an article will include that the progroms included 'others' and name a few - like the Roma and Homosexuals - but usually it's only the one group. Yet, within history many other groups have been genocided in equally awful ways - yet this one event - this one - has certain laws protecting it from further investigations. I find that odd.

To be quite forthright - I would really love to know exactly why my family members were sent to concentration camps, I would like to know what became of them while there - how did they die there? Was it disease? Or were they deliberately murdered? If they were - why? Were they part of the resistance? Were they communists? Sadly - I will never know. Just for accuracy sake - my ancestors who perished were a mix of Jews and Catholics and a few athiests thrown in as well. All family, all gone.

So, read a little further, look beyond your obivious bias and start to ask some questions.

I recommend Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry for starters to see how the deliberate and tragic deaths of millions has been exploited beyond belief. This book also addresses the mishandling of reparations to those who really do deserve some kind of compsensation - sadly though the 'righteous lawyeriars' are raking in a tonne.

[jazzer]

Any claim made without proof is just an opinion, or at best a theory.

I'm not claiming anything other than what is provable by my senses or the best science can offer. Because I don't worship an invisible entity doesn't automatically make me a member of some atheist club, or because I don't subscribe to wild theories doesn't mean I have to prove them wrong. In regards to Scientology, I lump it in with other religions that claim superiority, and thus that can be dangerous to society.

[Wilber]

I'm not claiming anything other than what is provable by my senses or the best science can offer. Because I don't worship an invisible entity doesn't automatically make me a member of some atheist club, or because I don't subscribe to wild theories doesn't mean I have to prove them wrong. In regards to Scientology, I lump it in with other religions that claim superiority, and thus that can be dangerous to society.

Fair enough, I guess I misunderstood you. There are a lot things I don't believe in myself but can't prove they don't exist. I don't believe in UFO's or Nessy either but who knows for sure. I was watching this thread and the one on the FSM and it struck me that those maintaining there was a deity and those claiming there wasn't were doing the same thing, advocating a position neither could prove and proclaiming it to be the truth. Equally presumptuous IMO.

[Rue]

buffy you ask;

"Why the laws for specifically 'denial' (definition please) of the 'Holocaust'?"

If you refer specifically to the law in Germany,

1- because it happened and to deny it happened is painful to the memory of Jews and non jews in Germany who suffered and still live in Germany and must live their remaining days in a country that constantly reminds them of it;

2-because to deny it makes it easier to do it again;

3-because to deny it, will fuel the sentiment of those seeking a new agenda against the next targetted group, which in the case of Germany would probably be either its 3 million Muslims or its visible minorities from Africa.

Do you ask this Buffy because you really do not know or because what you are really doing is stating in a back-handed way you think people should be able to deny the holocaust?

You started off misrepresenting the German law saying they do not permit asking about the holocaust and questioning what happened. Now when called upon that, you not I changed the subject with a denial as to your original point I challenged, and raise a new issue, should the holocaust be denied.

Germany is not Canada. The impact of such comments has a different and more direct physical and mental health consequence then where you live and where you take for granted you can say anything and everyone should be able to do the same.

Me personally Buffy, I know the only hope to preventing a holocaust again is to challenge people like you openly on public forums not censor you. However even in Canada if you engage in denial of the holocaust as part of a series of communications intended to incite hatred and intolerance, yes the criminal code and provincial and federal human rights code provide similiar protections in their laws as does this German Law and no freedom of speech in the Charter of Rights is not absolute.

If you cry fire in a crowded theatre and people die as a result and there was no fire, yes there is both criminal and civil culpability. Words Buffy can be as dangerous and as wounding as any weapon and I think you know that.

"I think, what bothers some is the overwhelming focus on the terrible fate of Jews under the Hitler regime, often left out are others - despite what YOU have to say."

Nothing I stated denied or rejected the concept that some are concerned that they feel left out of the holocaust. You again change the subject. Your original comments suggested JEWS were only concerned with their own memories and have excluded others. I carefully showed you with fullsome documentation and I state it again, no Jew teaching the holocaust ignores the suffering of non Jews that perished side by side with them. It is an integral part of remembering the holocaust.

More to the point Buffy, when Jews are involved in outreach programs as to the holocaust its used not in isolation but as part of a greater education process about racism and intolerance and these curriculums make a point to relate it to other genocides such as the Armanian one, the Stalin mass genocide of Ukrainians, Darfur, Rwanda and Burundi, the killing fields of Kampuchea, etc. Its precisely why the state of Israel took in 3,000 Albanian Muslim refugees during the Yugoslav civil war while also remembering the Serbians were one of the few East European peoples who fought side by side with them against Nazi collaborators. Its what makes it so difficult for Jews to balance remembering Ukrainians who have died in genocide with those Ukrainians who participated with Nazis in autrocities against them as well. Its not black and white and no Jews do not use the holocaust to feel superior to others.

You stated;

"Now and again an article will include that the progroms included 'others' and name a few - like the Roma and Homosexuals - but usually it's only the one group. "

Come on Buffy. Read the above. Its silly. You are now generalizing and claiming you are an expert on holocaust literature and can make the above evaluation. What you say is absurd. You are not in the position to make such a sweeping generalization and if you really are serious Buffy and challenged yourself to push through your preconceived resistance and conviction I am wrong and you are right and simply surf the sites I gave you you would know what you are saying is just not true. Or better still why don't you ask Romanoes and Gays how Jews have discussed the holocaust with them and shared their experiences.

See what is sad Buffy is that for many Romanoes and Gays or 7th Day Adventists or Jehova's Witnesses, is that they feel what we Jews do and depend on us to remember them because they know people like you when you try down-play the holocaust and use it to depict Jews as selfish about the holocaust make it easier to write off the holocaust and dismiss what happened to these people as well.

No Buffy your subjective attempt at trying to create an image of Jews ignoring these others to try drive a wedge and get these others to resent Jews who remember the holocaust is sad and ridiculous with due respect and its not proving anything Buffy other then you have some agenda now to try use the holocaust as a way to criticize Jews collectively for how they remember it.

You stated;

"Yet, within history many other groups have been genocided in equally awful ways - yet this one event - this one - has certain laws protecting it from further investigations. I find that odd."

The above words Buffy say it all. Suffering and violence is not equal and to say it is, does what Buffy? In your context it is used to suggest the holocaust is NOT unique and should be downplayed and that Buffy is sad. Each genocide is unique. None is equal. Its not some generic category and you lump them all in one definition and say they are all equal. When you do that Buffy it may make it convenient for you and suit your agenda to criticize Jews and downplay the holocaust but your attempt to signle this out as unfair treatment in favour of Jews is simply you ttrying to turn victims of the holocaust into victimizers. You now try twist the holocaust as if it is something to resent because it gives Jews superior powers of morality and righteousness over others.

That is pure bullshit Buffy and you know it. This is not about equality. This is about many peoples who may have experienced genocide and each one is as unique as a snowflake or fingerprint. Yes they have certain things in common, but the pain is unique to the people targetted in these groups for the genocides-something you have completely missed and by so doing you do not only insult Jews but the memories of all these other peoples you claim are equal. Enough with the simplistic black and whites Buffy. Challenge your rigid delineations. In suffering there is universal pain but there are also unique pains and no you trying to expoloit it and suggest Jews manipulate it for unfair legal advantage is bullshit and you are fully aware Buffy that the laws as to hate crime in Canada, the U.S., Britain, Germany, etc., are not unique to Jews and apply equally to protect any minority group if someone deliberately says something designed to provoke and incite hatred. Your pretending its only used for Jews and the holocaust is bullshit. The specific legislation about the holocaust in Germany does not preclude other Germans from equal protection-it specifies the holocaust not because it discriminates but because it acknowledges the specific physical site connection of where the holocaust happened and why it still has impact.

You stated;

"To be quite forthright - I would really love to know exactly why my family members were sent to concentration camps, I would like to know what became of them while there - how did they die there? "

Then transcend what is blinding you Buffy. Go visit the B'Nai B'Rith or speak with any Rabbiah anywhere and ask them where you should start. The fact you are not a Jew will not mean they won't answer you and they can if you are really interested help you find your own answers. Continue to demonize Jews as your enemy and you will continue to alienate the very people you need to speak with to understand what happened.

Its tragic you are so blinded by your rigid rights and wrongs you can not see that and you see yourself in a competition with Jews as to whose memory is more genuine.

You stated?

"Was it disease? Or were they deliberately murdered? If they were - why? Were they part of the resistance? Were they communists? Sadly - I will never know."

The above is absolute nonsense and Buffy I am calling you out and saying its juvenile melodrama trying to make you sound like a poor little victim. Horeshit. You are not the victim and if you genuyinely want to know what happened you know damn well where you can find out what happened. There are thousands upon thousands of historic archives and carefully documented and researched documents.

You stated;

" Just for accuracy sake - my ancestors who perished were a mix of Jews and Catholics and a few athiests thrown in as well. All family, all gone. "

If that is the case Buffy then you should bloody well know the Catholic Church particularly with its last Pope made genuine efforts to be blatant about its role and failures in the holocaust and yes there was open friction in Poland between a group of nuns and not just Jews but the Romanies, Gays, 7th Day Adventists, Communists, Jehova's Witnesses and families of the Roman Catholic priests who died there who did not want the site used by anyone for a religious mission and yes there has been friction but good friction and considerable work between the Catholic Church and many Israeli historic groups as to remembering the holocaust.

If what you say is true Buffy you have to be able to transcend the black and whites and see the holocaust from the perspective of Jews, atheists, Catholics, etc. How can you do that as long as you engage in these comments that generalize and demonize Jews' motives for remembering its uniqueness to them or trying to pit them against other victims as if we are ignoring them?

I deliberately gave you the Righteous Gentiles list to show you, when a Jew remembers, they do not just remember Jews-but maybe you need to start with remembering what it means to Jews, before you can then understand why it would mean something unique and different to Catholics or Communists, etc. and the fact that its different doesn't mean its a pissing contest of who is more important or better.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Rue

[Oleg Bach]

buffy you ask;

"Why the laws for specifically 'denial' (definition please) of the 'Holocaust'?"

If you refer specifically to the law in Germany,

1- because it happened and to deny it happened is painful to the memory of Jews and non jews in Germany who suffered and still live in Germany and must live their remaining days in a country that constantly reminds them of it;

2-because to deny it makes it easier to do it again;

3-because to deny it, will fuel the sentiment of those seeking a new agenda against the next targetted group, which in the case of Germany would probably be either its 3 million Muslims or its visible minorities from Africa.

Do you ask this Buffy because you really do not know or because what you are really doing is stating in a back-handed way you think people should be able to deny the holocaust?

You started off misrepresenting the German law saying they do not permit asking about the holocaust and questioning what happened. Now when called upon that, you not I changed the subject with a denial as to your original point I challenged, and raise a new issue, should the holocaust be denied.

Germany is not Canada. The impact of such comments has a different and more direct physical and mental health consequence then where you live and where you take for granted you can say anything and everyone should be able to do the same.

Me personally Buffy, I know the only hope to preventing a holocaust again is to challenge people like you openly on public forums not censor you. However even in Canada if you engage in denial of the holocaust as part of a series of communications intended to incite hatred and intolerance, yes the criminal code and provincial and federal human rights code provide similiar protections in their laws as does this German Law and no freedom of speech in the Charter of Rights is not absolute.

If you cry fire in a crowded theatre and people die as a result and there was no fire, yes there is both criminal and civil culpability. Words Buffy can be as dangerous and as wounding as any weapon and I think you know that.

"I think, what bothers some is the overwhelming focus on the terrible fate of Jews under the Hitler regime, often left out are others - despite what YOU have to say."

Nothing I stated denied or rejected the concept that some are concerned that they feel left out of the holocaust. You again change the subject. Your original comments suggested JEWS were only concerned with their own memories and have excluded others. I carefully showed you with fullsome documentation and I state it again, no Jew teaching the holocaust ignores the suffering of non Jews that perished side by side with them. It is an integral part of remembering the holocaust.

More to the point Buffy, when Jews are involved in outreach programs as to the holocaust its used not in isolation but as part of a greater education process about racism and intolerance and these curriculums make a point to relate it to other genocides such as the Armanian one, the Stalin mass genocide of Ukrainians, Darfur, Rwanda and Burundi, the killing fields of Kampuchea, etc. Its precisely why the state of Israel took in 3,000 Albanian Muslim refugees during the Yugoslav civil war while also remembering the Serbians were one of the few East European peoples who fought side by side with them against Nazi collaborators. Its what makes it so difficult for Jews to balance remembering Ukrainians who have died in genocide with those Ukrainians who participated with Nazis in autrocities against them as well. Its not black and white and no Jews do not use the holocaust to feel superior to others.

You stated;

"Now and again an article will include that the progroms included 'others' and name a few - like the Roma and Homosexuals - but usually it's only the one group. "

Come on Buffy. Read the above. Its silly. You are now generalizing and claiming you are an expert on holocaust literature and can make the above evaluation. What you say is absurd. You are not in the position to make such a sweeping generalization and if you really are serious Buffy and challenged yourself to push through your preconceived resistance and conviction I am wrong and you are right and simply surf the sites I gave you you would know what you are saying is just not true. Or better still why don't you ask Romanoes and Gays how Jews have discussed the holocaust with them and shared their experiences.

See what is sad Buffy is that for many Romanoes and Gays or 7th Day Adventists or Jehova's Witnesses, is that they feel what we Jews do and depend on us to remember them because they know people like you when you try down-play the holocaust and use it to depict Jews as selfish about the holocaust make it easier to write off the holocaust and dismiss what happened to these people as well.

No Buffy your subjective attempt at trying to create an image of Jews ignoring these others to try drive a wedge and get these others to resent Jews who remember the holocaust is sad and ridiculous with due respect and its not proving anything Buffy other then you have some agenda now to try use the holocaust as a way to criticize Jews collectively for how they remember it.

You stated;

"Yet, within history many other groups have been genocided in equally awful ways - yet this one event - this one - has certain laws protecting it from further investigations. I find that odd."

The above words Buffy say it all. Suffering and violence is not equal and to say it is, does what Buffy? In your context it is used to suggest the holocaust is NOT unique and should be downplayed and that Buffy is sad. Each genocide is unique. None is equal. Its not some generic category and you lump them all in one definition and say they are all equal. When you do that Buffy it may make it convenient for you and suit your agenda to criticize Jews and downplay the holocaust but your attempt to signle this out as unfair treatment in favour of Jews is simply you ttrying to turn victims of the holocaust into victimizers. You now try twist the holocaust as if it is something to resent because it gives Jews superior powers of morality and righteousness over others.

That is pure bullshit Buffy and you know it. This is not about equality. This is about many peoples who may have experienced genocide and each one is as unique as a snowflake or fingerprint. Yes they have certain things in common, but the pain is unique to the people targetted in these groups for the genocides-something you have completely missed and by so doing you do not only insult Jews but the memories of all these other peoples you claim are equal. Enough with the simplistic black and whites Buffy. Challenge your rigid delineations. In suffering there is universal pain but there are also unique pains and no you trying to expoloit it and suggest Jews manipulate it for unfair legal advantage is bullshit and you are fully aware Buffy that the laws as to hate crime in Canada, the U.S., Britain, Germany, etc., are not unique to Jews and apply equally to protect any minority group if someone deliberately says something designed to provoke and incite hatred. Your pretending its only used for Jews and the holocaust is bullshit. The specific legislation about the holocaust in Germany does not preclude other Germans from equal protection-it specifies the holocaust not because it discriminates but because it acknowledges the specific physical site connection of where the holocaust happened and why it still has impact.

You stated;

"To be quite forthright - I would really love to know exactly why my family members were sent to concentration camps, I would like to know what became of them while there - how did they die there? "

Then transcend what is blinding you Buffy. Go visit the B'Nai B'Rith or speak with any Rabbiah anywhere and ask them where you should start. The fact you are not a Jew will not mean they won't answer you and they can if you are really interested help you find your own answers. Continue to demonize Jews as your enemy and you will continue to alienate the very people you need to speak with to understand what happened.

Its tragic you are so blinded by your rigid rights and wrongs you can not see that and you see yourself in a competition with Jews as to whose memory is more genuine.

You stated?

"Was it disease? Or were they deliberately murdered? If they were - why? Were they part of the resistance? Were they communists? Sadly - I will never know."

The above is absolute nonsense and Buffy I am calling you out and saying its juvenile melodrama trying to make you sound like a poor little victim. Horeshit. You are not the victim and if you genuyinely want to know what happened you know damn well where you can find out what happened. There are thousands upon thousands of historic archives and carefully documented and researched documents.

You stated;

" Just for accuracy sake - my ancestors who perished were a mix of Jews and Catholics and a few athiests thrown in as well. All family, all gone. "

If that is the case Buffy then you should bloody well know the Catholic Church particularly with its last Pope made genuine efforts to be blatant about its role and failures in the holocaust and yes there was open friction in Poland between a group of nuns and not just Jews but the Romanies, Gays, 7th Day Adventists, Communists, Jehova's Witnesses and families of the Roman Catholic priests who died there who did not want the site used by anyone for a religious mission and yes there has been friction but good friction and considerable work between the Catholic Church and many Israeli historic groups as to remembering the holocaust.

If what you say is true Buffy you have to be able to transcend the black and whites and see the holocaust from the perspective of Jews, atheists, Catholics, etc. How can you do that as long as you engage in these comments that generalize and demonize Jews' motives for remembering its uniqueness to them or trying to pit them against other victims as if we are ignoring them?

I deliberately gave you the Righteous Gentiles list to show you, when a Jew remembers, they do not just remember Jews-but maybe you need to start with remembering what it means to Jews, before you can then understand why it would mean something unique and different to Catholics or Communists, etc. and the fact that its different doesn't mean its a pissing contest of who is more important or better.

So, read a little further, look beyond your obivious bias and start to ask some questions.

I recommend Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry for starters to see how the deliberate and tragic deaths of millions has been exploited beyond belief. This book also addresses the mishandling of reparations to those who really do deserve some kind of compsensation - sadly though the 'righteous lawyeriars' are raking in a tonne.

There are only two kinds of people in the world - sorry - three kinds - the haters - the lovers and those of lazy and selfish indifference. It could be genetic or it could be training that brings about haters..German or anglo elitism has always gone hand in hand with barbarity. Those the deny any genocide are those that are faking it. Those that remind us over and over again of the genocide or the burning whole of populaces (holocaust) - also are faking guilt - the German people have no regrets in the killing of what they consider inferiours - be it a Slav or a Jew or their own "lower classes".....Sometime I wonder if anglo germanics are simply missing a few genetic screws and are not capable of feeling anything other than a selfish orgasm.

[jazzer]

Is Scientology dangerous? I don't know, but THIS is scary.

[Rue]

Is Scientology dangerous? I don't know, but THIS is scary.

I profusely apologize for side-tracking the post. Back to the issue. I just saw the video on My Tube of Tom Cruise. If you haven't seen it watch it. I have know idea what has happened to Tom Cruise other then he seems wound up and ready to snap. If his religious belief in Scientology is a beneficial thing to him as he appears to say, I am just curious why he is wound up and looks like he is ready to explode.

[marcinmoka]

I have know idea what has happened to Tom Cruise other then he seems wound up and ready to snap. If his religious belief in Scientology is a beneficial thing to him as he appears to say, I am just curious why he is wound up and looks like he is ready to explode.

I'd suggest Valium or a similar anti-anxiety treatment, but somehow I don't think that idea would go down too well.

[Drea]

Not that I am advocating for any one religion... but...

Why do people hold Tom Cruise's "nuttiness" up as proof that Scientology is "dangerous" and in the same breath say the "God Warrior" crazed woman is NOT a representation of Christianity's "nuttiness"?

Either nuts represent their religion or they do not.

Just sayin...

[Rue]

Not that I am advocating for any one religion... but...

Why do people hold Tom Cruise's "nuttiness" up as proof that Scientology is "dangerous" and in the same breath say the "God Warrior" crazed woman is NOT a representation of Christianity's "nuttiness"?

Either nuts represent their religion or they do not.

Just sayin...

Truthfully Drea in Tommy Boy's case I do/did because its the Church of Scientology showing that tape as a recruitment tool. Its an image they think is a good one and obviously they think he serves as a positive role model that will encourage others to join. I would imagine the Church of S sees his display as enthusiastic, idealistic and positive otherwise they would not use it as a recruitment tool.

To me he looked like he was about to go postal. If I was Katie I would have a trnaquilizer gun and taser on me at all times.