The right not to be offended?

[M.Dancer]

Here's what I think. I think the law should simply state that no adult may have sex with a child. 18 is the age where we consider people adults. In my opinion children from the ages of 14-17 are in fact at most risk for exploitation because of the confusion that puberty brings them.

As for the "sick" murderers, the solution that comes to my mind may be proven not to be a deterent to others but it damn sure puts an end to re-offenders.

I have to agree. (I am 10 years older than my wife. When I started chasing after her, she was 25 and an adult living on her own. She was capable of making life altering decisions (although being married to me might be proof she isn't good at them). Now had I started courting her when I was 25 it would be a completely different story.....

[guyser]

Also, you should get your facts straight. Those WHO REPORTED being sexually active, averaged out to their first encounter at those ages.

And I have to agree with you. It was for those "who reported" being active. My apologies.

That study could have been done on 15 year olds of whom, 90% said they didn't have sex yet. You really need to read what you quote more carefully.

Is their a study for your assertion?

Would you care to respond to what the rest of that same paragraph has to say?

"Educating youth to make informed choices that are right for them is better addressed through parental guidance and sexual health education than by using the Criminal Code to criminalize youth for engaging in such activity."

Also about this...........

No, not that young. He is pulling stats out of his arse without looking at them closely.

Yes, no and yes.

Edited December 19, 2007 by guyser

[Black Dog]

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

I agree.

18 has to be the upper age limit.

It's easy to aruge that age is arbitary. Everyone knows that it is. But more importantly, who cares?

Move the age of consent from 14 to 16 was a positive thing.

We trust 16 year olds with a drivers licence, but not 14 year olds. Why? Who knows? But not having a valid argument isn't proof that we should lower the age for driving.

My point, again, isn't concerned with the change. It's irrelevant to me whether its 14 or 16. The point speaks to the way in which the necessity of this change argued. Given that the choice of age is arbitrary and given that the difference IMO between a 14 year old and a 16 year old is (pardon the pun) minor at best, the argument that "40 year olds having sex with 14 year olds" is a huge moral ill that must be corrected by advancing the age of consent by two whole years is specious. But I guess people need something to hang their hat on.

[guyser]

That young eh?

According to this survey, the average age is 17....

That being said, I am c=more concerned about 14 years olds with 19 or 20 years old. At some point a father should have the right to kick the fellows arse around town with an option to use his balls for book ends.

As I would be concerned.

But unfortunately we could not kick his arse around town, but hers you "sort of" could.

Perhaps a little pressure applied to him......cough cough.....but actually touch him and damn,in the slammer.

[Michael Hardner]

Or you could invite him to a nice family thanksgiving dinner to show him how civilized men behave in a family setting...

No panting... no staring at the womenfolk... young men need guidance in these areas...

[DrGreenthumb]

I think maybe we need to look at the idea of justifiable assault being legalized. An idea that may not be popular, but in my opinion has merit. For example if a 30 year old was to have sex with someone's 16 year old daughter, the father should be able to use the defence that his actions were justified when he beats the living hell out of the 30 year old pervert.

Don't tell me its not a deterent either. A lot of the time when these young girls are violated by older men it is because there is no father present for the pervert to fear. In fact, that may be part of the reason why the young girl is looking for attention from an older man in the first place; she is missing a father figure. So that also leads me to believe that our family law system needs to be overhauled to make sure that fathers are guaranteed better access to their children. A father's inability to pay his ex wife child support should never affect his access to his children. Money should never come between a parent and their child. If the parent is not a danger or threat to their child they should always be able to be a part of their child's life.

I know people are going to say that justifiable assault would be a slippery slope to justifiable homicide, but I say "so what?". Justified is justified. Justifiable homicide would obviously be much harder to make the case for in court than a justified asskicking. In case you didn't realize it, justified comes from the root word "just" and so does "justice"

I think a lot of these older perverts would stay away from young girls, even willing young girls, if they thought they would probably get their nose broken and their nuts kicked in by an angry father. Just my 2 cents.

Does this opinion mean that I lose my "leftard" membership?

I think people have a right to own firearms too as long as they do not use them to commit a crime.

That won't stop me from voting NDP in the next election, at least until the conservatives change their position on prohibition. I value individual rights over everything and currently it is the left that is the greatest champion of civil liberties. No other policy the cons put forward will "justify" voting for them until they give up trying to jail people for what substances they choose to ingest. I OWN my body, I am not your slave.

[guyser]

Or you could invite him to a nice family thanksgiving dinner to show him how civilized men behave in a family setting...

No panting... no staring at the womenfolk... young men need guidance in these areas...

See, I think thats what dancer is saying...guidance.

Guidance right into an oncoming bus...guidance right into the brick wall.

However, no one is advocating violence against anyone, just pontificating.

[DrGreenthumb]

Actually I AM advocating the use of violence, when violence is justified. Any old shitbag pervert tries to put the moves on one of my daughters, and he better damn well expect a violent reaction from me. If I have to go to jail for protecting my child then so be it. If that offends anyone too bad, you don't have the right not to be offended.

You righties are always saying how the justice system never punishes anyone anymore so why be afraid to kick a pedophile's ass? I'm not.

Here's a scenario for you, I have no criminal record, I find out a 30 year old man has had sexual relations with my 16 year old daughter. I go over to his house kick down the door and proceed to kick his teeth in. The cops pick me up(probably pat me on the back) and make me sign a promise to appear in court. The judge hears my story, after numerous remands, so probably about 2 years later. He sentences me to probabtion, house arrest, or maybe at most a couple of months in jail. I think the message has already been sent to other perverts not to touch my children. Was it worth it? damn rights it was.

[guyser]

Actually I AM advocating the use of violence, when violence is justified. Any old shitbag pervert tries to put the moves on one of my daughters, and he better damn well expect a violent reaction from me. If I have to go to jail for protecting my child then so be it. If that offends anyone too bad, you don't have the right not to be offended.

You righties are always saying how the justice system never punishes anyone anymore so why be afraid to kick a pedophile's ass? I'm not.

Violence is justified when under direct threat. Cant argue with that. BUt where is the imminent threat? Of course I am talking about your older daughter, because the younger ones allow the full use of the law to nail that SOB hard. Pedo's do not suffer gladly in jail.

Here's a scenario for you, I have no criminal record, I find out a 30 year old man has had sexual relations with my 16 year old daughter. I go over to his house kick down the door and proceed to kick his teeth in. The cops pick me up(probably pat me on the back) and make me sign a promise to appear in court. The judge hears my story, after numerous remands, so probably about 2 years later. He sentences me to probabtion, house arrest, or maybe at most a couple of months in jail. I think the message has already been sent to other perverts not to touch my children. Was it worth it? damn rights it was.

First off I can understand how angry you could get. (I almost said "know" but I dont have kids)

But your daughter is 16. She can form her own opinion and do things that would rightfully piss you off. Cant argue that.

But the moment you kick in his door you have invited

1) Break and enter charge

2) he can defend with no " more than necessary" his dwelling. (he may have a bat to beat you with)

The moment his teeth are kicked in you have invited

1) Assault causing bodily harm

2) a lawsuit against you , likely a loss on your part , monetarily, professionally, socially.

Then you can kiss crossing any border goodbye. Winter vacations will be in the sunny climes of Collingwood, Whistler, or Montreal. Lousy tanning in those places .

Not to mention, should you be a holder of a professional designation , you will be called on the carpet and perhaps removed from you chosen vocation, or denied other opportunities.

And while all this is unfolding against you, rest assured those prosecuting you will be muttering under their breath " Damn , cant blame the guy but..." .

I would bet you are a good dad. Good dads teach good things to their child. You r daughter in all likelihood has the same moral backbone you do. So...she probably is icked out beyond belief about some 40 yr letch, because you taught her right.

But, some kids stray, and do some dumb things. Would you really want to deny yourself the pleasure of your daughters because you are either (1) in jail (2) working two or three jobs to satisfy a judgement against you (3) living in an apartment because your house was sold to pay off your legal or justice bills?

Lastly, IF your daughter strayed , she would remain strayed after all your violent damage, making the effort moot.She may come back when reality does when she is in her late teens or early twenties.

Would that honestly be worth it?

[charter.rights]

Actually I AM advocating the use of violence, when violence is justified. Any old shitbag pervert tries to put the moves on one of my daughters, and he better damn well expect a violent reaction from me. If I have to go to jail for protecting my child then so be it. If that offends anyone too bad, you don't have the right not to be offended.

You righties are always saying how the justice system never punishes anyone anymore so why be afraid to kick a pedophile's ass? I'm not.

Here's a scenario for you, I have no criminal record, I find out a 30 year old man has had sexual relations with my 16 year old daughter. I go over to his house kick down the door and proceed to kick his teeth in. The cops pick me up(probably pat me on the back) and make me sign a promise to appear in court. The judge hears my story, after numerous remands, so probably about 2 years later. He sentences me to probabtion, house arrest, or maybe at most a couple of months in jail. I think the message has already been sent to other perverts not to touch my children. Was it worth it? damn rights it was.

So since you advocate violence as a means to solve problems, you would agree then that once you kicked in his door and started kicking in his teeth he would be justified in taking his shotgun out of his closet and blowing your guts apart? And likely even if he was charged, the courts would set him free - free to go back and do what he wishes with your daughter. Sounds like the sane thing to do......

[guyser]

... he would be justified in taking his shotgun out of his closet and blowing your guts apart? And likely even if he was charged, the courts would set him free - free to go back and do what he wishes with your daughter. Sounds like the sane thing to do......

to Clarify, he would be charged and convicted if past history is any measure. Defense of person property or real property does not allow one to use a gun (doesnt entirely prohibit it) if the person coming at them does not have a gun.

here...

1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

The key is the last line...no more than necessary.

[M.Dancer]

As I would be concerned.

But unfortunately we could not kick his arse around town, but hers you "sort of" could.

Perhaps a little pressure applied to him......cough cough.....but actually touch him and damn,in the slammer.

My god daughter got involved with a 28 year old man. She was 14. The police said there was nothing that could be done as it was consensual. The school he worked at said it wasn't an issue cause he wasn't a teacher ( he was a janitor). After he gave her herpes they parents had enough. Now of course, had they father been a spineless fool lacking in testicles he could have invited the paedophile for thanksgiving dinner. Instead a visit was made with a local chapter of a recreational motorcycle club where a contract was made and the motorcycle enthusiasts paid a visit to the paedophile janitor.

Last I heard after he got out of hospital he left this part of Ontario.

On a side note, apparently these things can be arranged in an a la carte fashion which is really good for the budget consious.

[guyser]

My god daughter got involved with a 28 year old man. She was 14. The police said there was nothing that could be done as it was consensual. The school he worked at said it wasn't an issue cause he wasn't a teacher ( he was a janitor). After he gave her herpes they parents had enough.

He was a crapbird of the first degree, and he paid for it. Third party intimidation in one offs never bother me.

She cleaned up and went straight since?

[Michael Hardner]

What you're talking about, Morris, is a failure of the justice system.

The justice system exists to dissuade people from committing crime, to keep dangerous people away from the public, and to give citizens a sense that bad behavior is dealt with fairly by society.

When the last of these fails, then it's no surprise that vigilantism rises. Of course, the 'sense' part is prone to the usual media horror stories but there have been enough real, non-sensational stories to cast doubt in many peoples' eyes.

[DrGreenthumb]

So since you advocate violence as a means to solve problems, you would agree then that once you kicked in his door and started kicking in his teeth he would be justified in taking his shotgun out of his closet and blowing your guts apart? And likely even if he was charged, the courts would set him free - free to go back and do what he wishes with your daughter. Sounds like the sane thing to do......

Ok so it would smarter to wait and catch the shitbag pervert walking down the street, where you won't need to break and enter and you can see that he doesn't have a shotgun. I still say a father should have the right to kick the living shit out of a perverted old man that tries to get a piece of his 16 year or even 17 year old daughter. If she is 18 she is legally an adult I guess the father would have to respect his daughter's decision. I have no worries whatsoever that my daughters would put me in the situation anyways, I have raised them better than that.

I do think that fear of the father's wrath would go a long way to keep the pervs away though. No hiding behind the law for them. I say a court should be able to find that a person thoroughly deserved the asskicking they got.

Same thing for car thieves, or home invaders, if I catch you trying to steal my car I should be well within my rights to lay a beating on you for it.

[guyser]

Ok so it would smarter to wait and catch the shitbag pervert walking down the street, where you won't need to break and enter and you can see that he doesn't have a shotgun. I still say a father should have the right to kick the living shit out of a perverted old man that tries to get a piece of his 16 year or even 17 year old daughter.

and in a perfect world this one off would be okay by me, hypocritical as that is.

But we cant and for the most part dont.

I have no worries whatsoever that my daughters would put me in the situation anyways, I have raised them better than that.

And that is the key. For those that get into trouble, parenting might be suspect (in most cases-not all)

[M.Dancer]

He was a crapbird of the first degree, and he paid for it. Third party intimidation in one offs never bother me.

She cleaned up and went straight since?

God no.....she is damaged goods. 16 now, working somewhere living in a dump with her 21 year old boyfriend who doesn't workcollects welfare and has 2 kids with two other girls.

The parents were blind and ultra permissive. They didn't go boo when the kid started smoking a 13..they thought that would be hypocritical....when she got suspended for smoking dope, they shrugged their shoulders, what could they do, she knows they smoke....their belief was she had to follow her bliss and it would all work out as she matured....well, they still think that, meanwhile the kid is trodding the road to white trash hell...

...never the less, being brought up by druggie hippies does not give anyone the right to exploit her, even if by her upbringing she was denied the tools to prevent it.

[charter.rights]

Ok so it would smarter to wait and catch the shitbag pervert walking down the street, where you won't need to break and enter and you can see that he doesn't have a shotgun. I still say a father should have the right to kick the living shit out of a perverted old man that tries to get a piece of his 16 year or even 17 year old daughter. If she is 18 she is legally an adult I guess the father would have to respect his daughter's decision. I have no worries whatsoever that my daughters would put me in the situation anyways, I have raised them better than that.

I do think that fear of the father's wrath would go a long way to keep the pervs away though. No hiding behind the law for them. I say a court should be able to find that a person thoroughly deserved the asskicking they got.

Same thing for car thieves, or home invaders, if I catch you trying to steal my car I should be well within my rights to lay a beating on you for it.

Right so you take a fist to the guy and he pulls out a legal but large pocket knife and disembowels you.

I would suggest that if you instilled in your daughters that violence is a solution for your frustrations, then you haven't "raised them better than that" but should expect them to use the same kind of thinking they were brought up with to solve their problems.

The court does not assess whether or not an assault or a beating is justified, save and except in self-defense and then only if reasonable force is justified. They determine if the assault occurred and by whom and assess the punishment that is prescribed under the law. Too bad for you that you would either be laying in some hospital crapping into a plastic bag connected to your bowel, or sitting in jail, while your daughter is getting screwed by the man she chose to sleep with.

[blueblood]

Right so you take a fist to the guy and he pulls out a legal but large pocket knife and disembowels you.

I would suggest that if you instilled in your daughters that violence is a solution for your frustrations, then you haven't "raised them better than that" but should expect them to use the same kind of thinking they were brought up with to solve their problems.

The court does not assess whether or not an assault or a beating is justified, save and except in self-defense and then only if reasonable force is justified. They determine if the assault occurred and by whom and assess the punishment that is prescribed under the law. Too bad for you that you would either be laying in some hospital crapping into a plastic bag connected to your bowel, or sitting in jail, while your daughter is getting screwed by the man she chose to sleep with.

People are walking into Kim Walker land here...

He got the book thrown at him even though he apparently (and I do mean apparently) saved his daughter's life. I took Dr. Greenthumb to be a left winger...

I personally sympathize with Kim Walker, but he still killed somebody and has to pay his debt to society.

That having been said if a person chooses to get in a consentual fight with somebody, there's no law against that...

[DrGreenthumb]

"never the less, being brought up by druggie hippies "-M Dancer

To that I'd just like to say "kiss my ass" Smoking pot does not make you a bad parent. Get over it already. Its pretty well known that most family problems are caused by alcohol not pot. I guess any parent that likes a glass of wine or a beer after work, is just a no good lousy drunk right? Why do you insist on critisizing people for using a plant you obviously are clueless about.

next subject

Relax charterrights I'm well aware that vigilanteism is illegal, I was speaking hypothetically. If some dumb pervert pulled a knife on me, he would be the one regretting it. In fact in the hypothetical situation I was describing, the knife would give me the self defence excuse I would need in court.

I've taken martial arts training for years as have all 3 of my girls. I' have never used the skills I've learned to harm another person, but you can easily subdue someone without harming them if you know how to do it.

There are not many men out there who would be able to force themselves on my daughters. They are all well trained in ways to take down an attacker, that do not require brute strength. Martial arts and meditation are a great way to teach your children discipline and self respect, as well as instilling a sense of confidence. Do not convince your girls that they are helpless or they may end up believing it. I think that self defence training should be provided in our public schools, if kids felt like they were capable of defending themselves with their bare hands maybe less would feel that carrying weapons was necessary. Girls especially should be trained in how to NOT be an easy victim.

I think we have somehow veered away from the topic of this thread though.

Just a note to get it back on track. I attended my youngest daughters school CHRISTMAS concert today, and they sang many CHRISTMAS songs, even one about baby Jesus, and nobody was offended. My daughter's muslim friend even gave her a CHRISTMAS ornament for our tree that she made with a kit her father bought for her. Seems to me like their is no anti Christmas or anti Christian sentiment around my neck of town.

[Brain Candy]

I don't think anyone has that right.

I don't agree with hate speech legislation either, I think it goes both ways though. For instance I think someone should absolutely have the right to express their belief that some ethnic groups are nothing more than "7th century barbarians", or "sand people".

I was called a "snow nigger" once. I laughed.

When confronting an opposing idea try to understand it thoroughly then poke holes in any parts that may be logically flawed. Come to think of it doing the same for your ideas would be helpful in examining what you actually stand for. Name calling or more subtle insults (ie surely only an idiot would think...), while they shouldn't be illegal, serves no purpose in debate.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Brain Candy

[White Doors]

Here's what I think. I think the law should simply state that no adult may have sex with a child. 18 is the age where we consider people adults. In my opinion children from the ages of 14-17 are in fact at most risk for exploitation because of the confusion that puberty brings them.

As for the "sick" murderers, the solution that comes to my mind may be proven not to be a deterent to others but it damn sure puts an end to re-offenders.

Well, that is a pretty conservative point of view.

[White Doors]

I'd also like to be enlightened as to the vast differences between a 14 year old and a sixteen year old. Keep in mind I have 3 teenage daughters so don't try to bullshit me.

Don't be obtuse.

[charter.rights]

Don't be obtuse.

How about answering the question? Or can't you tell.

"Honest officer, she said she was sixteen. How could I know that she was only fourteen?" Cheech and Chong

[White Doors]

How about answering the question? Or can't you tell.

"Honest officer, she said she was sixteen. How could I know that she was only fourteen?" Cheech and Chong

You people seriously need for me to explain the physiological, social and mental differences of a 14 year old and a 16 year old?

I know some of you can be thick, but not this thick.