Water

[margrace]

Canada has one of the largest resources of fresh water in the world. Water is going to be - already is- a very valuable commodity and I've always found it odd that Canada is so willing to sell oil and Natural gas and uranium and coal, which are by their nature finite. But talking about water is off the table, yet water is renewable.

Paul Celucci, former US ambassador to Canada.

"Water is an ecomonic good, but it is so much more than that: It is the basis of all life, not just human. It is integral in the health and beauty of Canada's landscape. It is the key to our past and future. If this, the last and greatest natural resource still in Canadian hands is traded away, we are a lesser people, sovereign people in name only."

Frank Quinn, leading Canadian water expert

This is from an article by Herbert Bauch

The Gazette

Edited November 29, 2007 by margrace

[Borg]

To open the gates would be a mistake. There will be a time when we need it.

Once the sale has started it would be impossible to turn it off. In fact it could invite military action aginst us in the distant future.

Borg

[M.Dancer]

Water is both covered and protected by the FTA agreement.

[White Doors]

We already DO sell water. Companies are pumping out water in Canada and putting it in little bottles of Aquifina and selling it.

That's selling water.

[M.Dancer]

We already DO sell water. Companies are pumping out water in Canada and putting it in little bottles of Aquifina and selling it.

That's selling water.

That's right. Bottled water is allowed.....pipeline water, tanker trucks are not.

A question of volume....

[Topaz]

Her's some shocking news for everyone. After going to NAFTA/water info on the web, I found there's big loophole on this. Thank you Mulroney!! Apparently, once water has been understood as a "economic good" as the former US ambassador said, once sold as comerical purpose no gov't or regulatory regime would be able to stop it. and then the bulk water water export company can use NAFTA rules to lift the restriction on bulk water on the Great Lakes. The profit from the sell of this product is 10x higher than what we pay for bottle water. Some take it out of the tap which is coke and pepesi in Canada and Nestle and Danone take their from rural springs.

[Lazarus]

Her's some shocking news for everyone. After going to NAFTA/water info on the web, I found there's big loophole on this. Thank you Mulroney!! Apparently, once water has been understood as a "economic good" as the former US ambassador said, once sold as comerical purpose no gov't or regulatory regime would be able to stop it. and then the bulk water water export company can use NAFTA rules to lift the restriction on bulk water on the Great Lakes. The profit from the sell of this product is 10x higher than what we pay for bottle water. Some take it out of the tap which is coke and pepesi in Canada and Nestle and Danone take their from rural springs.

Coca-Cola also exports bottled water out their Bellevue WA. plant into Western Canada. Bottled water is pretty much an international two-way trade.

There are already existing Water Treaties between Canada and the US, especially in the West for rivers and lakes that cross the border. Some of those deal, such as the Columbia River Treaty heavily favour the US. In the Okanagan, both Lake Okanagan and Skaha Lakes have seen their levels drastically lowered at times when the US as per treaty was able to demand the Canadian Authorities to open up the slues gates in order to slate US demands for more fresh water, much of which is diverted down to California in order to provide irrigation for it massive agricultural industry. About ten or so years ago, this caused the levels of the Thompson-Okanagan lakes to drop so much that the Kokonee Salmon population was threaten with extinction after their breeding gravel beds were left high and dry.

Therein lays the threat from bulk sales and diversion of fresh water south or overseas. If we were to allow this to happen, what would both the ecological and economic repercussions be? Canada pretty much got hosed with the Oil Deal we cut with the Americans along with existing share fresh water treaties. It would be in our national best interest to be extremely careful when it comes to future water deals, especially bulk water deals.

[margrace]

Coca-Cola also exports bottled water out their Bellevue WA. plant into Western Canada. Bottled water is pretty much an international two-way trade.

There are already existing Water Treaties between Canada and the US, especially in the West for rivers and lakes that cross the border. Some of those deal, such as the Columbia River Treaty heavily favour the US. In the Okanagan, both Lake Okanagan and Skaha Lakes have seen their levels drastically lowered at times when the US as per treaty was able to demand the Canadian Authorities to open up the slues gates in order to slate US demands for more fresh water, much of which is diverted down to California in order to provide irrigation for it massive agricultural industry. About ten or so years ago, this caused the levels of the Thompson-Okanagan lakes to drop so much that the Kokonee Salmon population was threaten with extinction after their breeding gravel beds were left high and dry.

Therein lays the threat from bulk sales and diversion of fresh water south or overseas. If we were to allow this to happen, what would both the ecological and economic repercussions be? Canada pretty much got hosed with the Oil Deal we cut with the Americans along with existing share fresh water treaties. It would be in our national best interest to be extremely careful when it comes to future water deals, especially bulk water deals.

We had better keep a close eye on Harper and his American buddies then hadn't we??????

[Billy Boy]

As the Great Lakes are half-"owned" by the US, what stops them from taking their half out of them via pipeline?

Is there a treaty that prevents that? Does anyone know? Sounds like a scary possibility to me.

[August1991]

Her's some shocking news for everyone. After going to NAFTA/water info on the web, I found there's big loophole on this. Thank you Mulroney!! Apparently, once water has been understood as a "economic good" as the former US ambassador said, once sold as comerical purpose no gov't or regulatory regime would be able to stop it. and then the bulk water water export company can use NAFTA rules to lift the restriction on bulk water on the Great Lakes. The profit from the sell of this product is 10x higher than what we pay for bottle water. Some take it out of the tap which is coke and pepesi in Canada and Nestle and Danone take their from rural springs.

We sell oil, natural gas, electricity, manufactured cars, iron ore, uranium, potash and banking services to Americans. Why would not sell water to Americans too?

Awhile ago, Canada's Left was angry because Americans would not buy our lumber from us. Now Canada's Left is angry because Americans may want to buy water from us. Both water and lumber are renewable resources. Unused fresh water just flows into the ocean and unused lumber just falls over and dies.

Frankly, I think Canada's Left (and many posters on this forum) just dislike Americans and want to be angry with them regardless of what they do or don't do.

As to water, it is just a commodity as any other. The sooner we put a price on it and sell it like any other commodity, the sooner the world will protect and use it carefully. To believe otherwise is to disregard several thousand years experience of market relations.

When the price of something appears to be zero, don't be surprised if it gets overused, misused and wasted.

Edited November 29, 2007 by August1991

[Topaz]

We sell oil, natural gas, electricity, manufactured cars, iron ore, uranium, potash and banking services to Americans. Why would not sell water to Americans too?

Awhile ago, Canada's Left was angry because Americans would not buy our lumber from us. Now Canada's Left is angry because Americans may want to buy water from us. Both water and lumber are renewable resources. Unused fresh water just flows into the ocean and unused lumber just falls over and dies.

Frankly, I think Canada's Left (and many posters on this forum) just dislike Americans and want to be angry with them regardless of what they do or don't do.

As to water, it is just a commodity as any other. The sooner we put a price on it and sell it like any other commodity, the sooner the world will protect and use it carefully. To believe otherwise is to disregard several thousand years experience of market relations.

When the price of something appears to be zero, don't be surprised if it gets overused, misused and wasted.

The problem is, if the Great Lakes dry up, then the people who live around them will have no water. Humans can only live 5 days without water., plus the fact what kind of live with there be?

[Lazarus]

As the Great Lakes are half-"owned" by the US, what stops them from taking their half out of them via pipeline?

Is there a treaty that prevents that? Does anyone know? Sounds like a scary possibility to me.

Actually, they own more then half of the Great Lake. If you look at this Map and its associated international boundaries, you will plainly see that they own all of Lake Michigan and a little more then half of the rest.

However, since the Lakes are still somewhat polluted with heavy metals and other toxic elements from almost two centuries of unrestricted heavy industrial use, there is a question about how much safe potable water could be extracted from them.

Also, since they are a share common resource between both Canada and the US, there must be treaties in place as to how they are to be exploited and used. As it is, water levels in the Great Lakes have been dropping for a while now and there is a real concern about their sustainability. No one expects them to dry up over night, but people on both sides of the border including agencies with both national governments and industrial concerns are worried.

For export purposes, the Great Lakes really are a non-contender for fresh potable water, however Canada does currently have an abundance of untapped fresh water reserves, these are the ones that we need to protect and guard against over exploitation.

While Canada is estimated to hold 20% of the worlds fresh water reserves, over 60% of those reserves are in the far north regions of the nation and drain into the Arctic Basin. To exploit these reserves in a cost effective manner to ensure profitability would demand a huge investment in capital for infrastructure and development costs. Also, most of these reserves are in highly sensitive ecological zones and could be adversely affected by wholesale industrial exportation of water. The other issue that needs to be addressed is ownership. Vast tracts of land that these reserves are in belong to various First Nations groups through Treaty with the Crown.

Another real concern about Canada's fresh water reserves is sustainability. No matter which side of the Climate Warming debate you sit, you cannot deny that there has been a marked drop in our annual snow falls and packs. Apart from last year, in BC we have since a steady decrease in the mountain snow packs over the past twenty years and an increase in rainfall. Mountain snow packs are the primary storage of our fresh water, as they melt they replenish the streams, rives and lakes that supply us with our ready use fresh water. Smaller the the snow packs, the less the on hand reserves. Rain on the other hand drains straight into the water sheds and are either lost through evaporation or run off during the winter. Come the spring and summer when the rains move on, our ready use water shed reserves can become dangerously depleted.

This also has a negative impact on all types of fisheries, including sport and commercial. In the Fraser River, a simple increase in temperature of 2 to 5 degrees C has the potential of wiping out our Salmon runs. Once active breeding streams are now drying up during the summer months and those Salmon that run during that period have fewer places to go and spawn.

By adding whole-sale industrialized water exportation, either by tanker or pipeline into this mix could well spell ecological and economical disaster for the nation. Already in the Okanagan Valley region, here are calls for Ottawa to stand up against the US and its habit of opening the slues gates in order to feed their demand at the expense of the farms, orchards and ranches in BC.

Personally I believe water to be an even greater resource then oil and one that is just as likely to trigger wars in the near future.

[GostHacked]

That's right. Bottled water is allowed.....pipeline water, tanker trucks are not.

A question of volume....

Come over to my warehouse and see how much bottled water flows through our facility. Office bottled water (the big 20/40 litres). I think you will find the volume of all bottled water is staggering.

[Lazarus]

Come over to my warehouse and see how much bottled water flows through our facility. Office bottled water (the big 20/40 litres). I think you will find the volume of all bottled water is staggering.

I've moved bottle water by the truckloads, enough to satisfy every Canadians thirst. And if you will pardon the pun, its but a drop in the ocean. The majority of fresh water is not used domestically, but for agriculture and industrial purposes.

World wide, 69% of all fresh water use goes to agriculture, 23% goes to industrial uses leaving 8% for all domestic uses, including drinking, cooking, cleaning, bathing and flushing. The majority of domestic water use in North America does not go for drinking, but rather showering and flushing.

While we are rich in water reserves and resources, we are also wasteful.

[Higgly]

Her's some shocking news for everyone. After going to NAFTA/water info on the web, I found there's big loophole on this. Thank you Mulroney!! Apparently, once water has been understood as a "economic good" as the former US ambassador said, once sold as comerical purpose no gov't or regulatory regime would be able to stop it. and then the bulk water water export company can use NAFTA rules to lift the restriction on bulk water on the Great Lakes.

That's right. That's why it should not be sold. Once we start selling it, the US can claim restriction of trade if we try to stop and could resort to military force if we didn't back down.

First there would be a big publicity buildup on CNN with the usual right-wing red-faced hotheads blathering on about what a stupid little place Canada is and how we are all commies up here anyways. Once everybody was suitably worked up, there would be some sort of act shoved through Congress in a hurry to justify the whole thing. After that would come the invasion. I can see it now. "Operation Big Slurp" complete with embedded reporters. One day you're walking down the street minding your own business and the next thing you know Stone Phillips runs up to you dressed in fatigues and shoves a mic in your face.

[Fortunata]

"Operation Big Slurp" complete with embedded reporters. One day you're walking down the street minding your own business and the next thing you know Stone Phillips runs up to you dressed in fatigues and shoves a mic in your face.

I'd have to get me a gun and become one of them "terrorist" insurgents.

[Topaz]

That's right. That's why it should not be sold. Once we start selling it, the US can claim restriction of trade if we try to stop and could resort to military force if we didn't back down.

First there would be a big publicity buildup on CNN with the usual right-wing red-faced hotheads blathering on about what a stupid little place Canada is and how we are all commies up here anyways. Once everybody was suitably worked up, there would be some sort of act shoved through Congress in a hurry to justify the whole thing. After that would come the invasion. I can see it now. "Operation Big Slurp" complete with embedded reporters. One day you're walking down the street minding your own business and the next thing you know Stone Phillips runs up to you dressed in fatigues and shoves a mic in your face.

Funny you should mention "an invasion". Last night , I was listening to Pat Buchanan and he's coming out with a book about the SPP and how the "powers that be" are driving the US into the ground financially, why there hasn't be the stopping of Mexician from crossing the border in to the US etc. They want Canada for our natural resources and that this IS going to happen. He's said all the free trade agreements leads to the North American Union and its the corporates that will benefit from it. So I'm wondering if Harper, or any future PM is going to take the big bucks to let this happen???

[bush_cheney2004]

They want Canada for our natural resources and that this IS going to happen. He's said all the free trade agreements leads to the North American Union and its the corporates that will benefit from it. So I'm wondering if Harper, or any future PM is going to take the big bucks to let this happen???

Yep...that's it. The USA isn't stopping the Canadian illegals either! It's all part of The Big Plan.

[capricorn]

First there would be a big publicity buildup on CNN with the usual right-wing red-faced hotheads blathering on about what a stupid little place Canada is and how we are all commies up here anyways. Once everybody was suitably worked up, there would be some sort of act shoved through Congress in a hurry to justify the whole thing. After that would come the invasion. I can see it now. "Operation Big Slurp" complete with embedded reporters. One day you're walking down the street minding your own business and the next thing you know Stone Phillips runs up to you dressed in fatigues and shoves a mic in your face.

Higgly, you sound like Canada's next great stand-up comedian. What are you doing posting here? You should be out there making a fortune with that quick wit of yours.

[M.Dancer]

Come over to my warehouse and see how much bottled water flows through our facility. Office bottled water (the big 20/40 litres). I think you will find the volume of all bottled water is staggering.

And I bet it is a trickle compared to what a 75mm pipe could move...

[GostHacked]

And I bet it is a trickle compared to what a 75mm pipe could move...

Not when you consider how many products are consisted mostly of water. But again, bottled water is making just as much of an impact as piped water. Not all of us are on the

From where I sit in my office overlooking the warehouse floor, I can see 15 pallets of bottled water. This is what we got in today. We had two truckloads of bottled water yesterday as well.

How many places actually GIVE you water these days? They will gladly sell you a bottle of water for a couple bucks. This kind of counteracts your agrument about the 75mm pipe. That pipe is not used as much because of bottled water. That 75mm pipe is also used to fill all that bottled water. Then so much resources are wasted to ship it to you. Someone wanted to make money off water, and they found a way. How much fresh water do 6 billion people consume on a daily basis?

Topaz. That SPP and the NAU is pretty f*cking scary stuff. It will destroy Mexico, USA and Canada. Sovereignty is a think of the past. Even Bush_Cheney will be crying in his security blanket and calling for his mother when the US is finally torn apart from the inside, by his own elected government. Canada will lose it as well. Welcome to Mexuscan .

[M.Dancer]

Not when you consider how many products are consisted mostly of water. But again, bottled water is making just as much of an impact as piped water. Not all of us are on the

From where I sit in my office overlooking the warehouse floor, I can see 15 pallets of bottled water. This is what we got in today. We had two truckloads of bottled water yesterday as well.

How many places actually GIVE you water these days? They will gladly sell you a bottle of water for a couple bucks. This kind of counteracts your agrument about the 75mm pipe. That pipe is not used as much because of bottled water. That 75mm pipe is also used to fill all that bottled water. Then so much resources are wasted to ship it to you. Someone wanted to make money off water, and they found a way. How much fresh water do 6 billion people consume on a daily basis?

Topaz. That SPP and the NAU is pretty f*cking scary stuff. It will destroy Mexico, USA and Canada. Sovereignty is a think of the past. Even Bush_Cheney will be crying in his security blanket and calling for his mother when the US is finally torn apart from the inside, by his own elected government. Canada will lose it as well. Welcome to Mexuscan .

I think you are missing the point. I would hope we can both agree that a pipe running 24/7 will move more water than a warehouse can load trucks....the point is the pipe isn't allowed. There will be no vast redirection of water supplies from Canada to irragate Las Vegas....but if they need $5.00 bottles of wter to stick the hotel rooms...they can call you up.

[bush_cheney2004]

Topaz. That SPP and the NAU is pretty f*cking scary stuff. It will destroy Mexico, USA and Canada. Sovereignty is a think of the past. Even Bush_Cheney will be crying in his security blanket and calling for his mother when the US is finally torn apart from the inside, by his own elected government. Canada will lose it as well. Welcome to Mexuscan .

Then be afraid....be very afraid. Look who's crying already.....

[Higgly]

Yep...that's it. The USA isn't stopping the Canadian illegals either! It's all part of The Big Plan.

Yeah. Like we're all running down there to pay two miullion dollars for a flu shot. Get a clue.

[Higgly]

I think you are missing the point. I would hope we can both agree that a pipe running 24/7 will move more water than a warehouse can load trucks....the point is the pipe isn't allowed. There will be no vast redirection of water supplies from Canada to irragate Las Vegas....but if they need $5.00 bottles of wter to stick the hotel rooms...they can call you up.

I like this idea. Pay by the bottle. Works for me.