75th Anniversary of the Ukrainian Starvation

[jbg]

The jews get theirs - why can I not have mine - being the child of survivors of this horror.

Ukraine is now an independent state, and not beset by terrorists and animals who want them all dead.

[Higgly]

Without the communist economic ideas that were enforced on the Kulacks...there would be no famine....whether Stalin or Trotsky...the effect would have been the same, a hideous evil social economic experiment.

Brutality heeds no doctrine. Allende was a Communist, Pinochet was not. Who was the most brutal? Mao was a Communist, although his brutalilty - for example the many millions who died during the Great Leap Forward - was often due as much to ignorance as anything else. Chiang Kai Shek, on the other hand, after being chased out of the mainland by Mao, arrived in Formosa and proceeded to execute everyone who was politically active and might resist his rule.

I do not advocate Communism. It's a lousy form of government. But it is the leadership, not the system, that creates this kind of brutality.

[Higgly]

My Ukrainian mother tried to stuff blades of grass in her fathers mouth to keep him alive - this huge Christian holocausts is ignored..The jews get theirs - why can I not have mine - being the child of survivors of this horror.

First person accounts like this are sadly gong untold as the generation that experienced this crime against humanity die out and it goes largely unnoticed.

Rather than make negative comments about issues that others hold dear, however, I hope we can all agree to be positively focussed on this one.

[jbg]

Brutality heeds no doctrine. Allende was a Communist, Pinochet was not. Who was the most brutal?

Pinochet doesn't hold a candle to Stalin in that area.

Mao was a Communist, although his brutalilty - for example the many millions who died during the Great Leap Forward - was often due as much to ignorance as anything else. Chiang Kai Shek, on the other hand, after being chased out of the mainland by Mao, arrived in Formosa and proceeded to execute everyone who was politically active and might resist his rule.

Chang Kai Shek's brutality doesn't hold a candle to Mao's many bloodbaths. Jeanne Kirkpatrict wrote an excellent article, that I'd be willing to e-mail to anyone who PM's me their e-mail address, abouto the difference between totalitarian rulers, such as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and less-vicious authoritarians. I had thought there was no distinction when the article originally came out, but now I understand the difference.

[M.Dancer]

I do not advocate Communism. It's a lousy form of government. But it is the leadership, not the system, that creates this kind of brutality.

find one communist nation that didn't have a reign of terror.

[Sulaco]

find one communist nation that didn't have a reign of terror.

Mongolia?

Here I am making the distinction between an overthrow of a ruling class and extended reign of terror. I think that such a distinction is fair.

Of course my suggestion is based on ignorance. Ie. - I never heard of what might be called a reign of terror in Mongolia.

But as I sit here I cannot think of another place that can even be suggested.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Sulaco

[Oleg Bach]

Mongolia?

My father suffered under communism - and later hounded by the Nazis..seems that if you let them - they will re-appear. I see it happening in the city of Toronto - sad part is - that there are men of great wealth who are secret socialist - or national socialist - Nazis! Where can one escape from these creeps...wonder if I should high tail it to Alberta where a man can work and actually keep his money. YES - everyone forgets the genocide in the Ukraine - and corporate collectivism that is starting to taste a bit like the atomosphere here in Toronto...To have a mother that witness the Ukrainian killing of thousands and thousands...she was not impressed with with the collectivism that she saw forming here - it's just a cleaner version of the old. This can not be repeated often enough - it is not the poor that launch socialism - it is the crazed hobbiest rich - gangsters - socialism creates slaves - I see men that judge their success by how many they can subdue and how many will suffer under their control - these men exist - and no government as we know it can stop them - they own us.

[M.Dancer]

Mongolia?

Here I am making the distinction between an overthrow of a ruling class and extended reign of terror. I think that such a distinction is fair.

Of course my suggestion is based on ignorance. Ie. - I never heard of what might be called a reign of terror in Mongolia.

But as I sit here I cannot think of another place that can even be suggested.

I'm not familiar with Mongolia per se, only that it was a stalinist state.....

To that end, a Special Commission was set up in 1937 which kept accurate records of the sentences. Between September 1937 and April 1939, no fewer than 25,824 suspects were tried by the Commission. Of these, 20,474 were executed and 5,343 banished or imprisoned. Prosecution by the Special Commission nearly always ended in a sentence; only seven persons were acquitted between 1937-1939. Thousands of others disappeared without any form of trial. Nothing and no one was spared. Party purges led to the execution or deportation of communist cadres and their children.

http://www.cypresgalerie.com/uk/publi/mongolia.htm

[Oleg Bach]

My father suffered under communism - and later hounded by the Nazis..seems that if you let them - they will re-appear. I see it happening in the city of Toronto - sad part is - that there are men of great wealth who are secret socialist - or national socialist - Nazis! Where can one escape from these creeps...wonder if I should high tail it to Alberta where a man can work and actually keep his money. YES - everyone forgets the genocide in the Ukraine - and corporate collectivism that is starting to taste a bit like the atomosphere here in Toronto...To have a mother that witness the Ukrainian killing of thousands and thousands...she was not impressed with with the collectivism that she saw forming here - it's just a cleaner version of the old. This can not be repeated often enough - it is not the poor that launch socialism - it is the crazed hobbiest rich - gangsters - socialism creates slaves - I see men that judge their success by how many they can subdue and how many will suffer under their control - these men exist - and no government as we know it can stop them - they own us.

Continued: Corporatism eventually becomes collectivism which becomes the worst sort of socialism that is controled by un-elected persons. What's scarey is that these types are not very bright..and cold hearted- there are Stalins in the wings - who will genocide here in time - the up side is that they are aging and will perish before their dream of ultimate power and domination can take place - thank God they will simply run out of time.

[Higgly]

find one communist nation that didn't have a reign of terror.

North Vietnam and Laos. You might include Cuba under this category. While Castro does imprison political prisoners, Batista before him did much worse.

Some would argue that the US has had several reigns of terror - they just do it to someone else. For example, Iran under the Shah.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Pinochet doesn't hold a candle to Stalin in that area.

Chang Kai Shek's brutality doesn't hold a candle to Mao's many bloodbaths.

Not saying who is worse, but the mothers of "los desperados" wouldn't be too impressed. Chiang Kai Shek was dealing with a much smaller population but he was a very brutal character. Sterling Seagrave's book "The Soong Dynasty" is educational on the antics of that scumbag.

[M.Dancer]

North Vietnam and Laos.

Right!

And the boat people were just economic migrants.

You betray a serious deficiency is modern history if you think the Laotians or the NV did not wage war against their own peoples.

In the case of Laos it was against the Hmong.....with the NV it was the ethnic Chinese and anyone who was in their mind, Bourgeois.

Not withstanding your irrelevant jab at the US, while there are dozens of non communist countries who have never sytematically tries to murder their own people, not one communist country is so lucky.

[M.Dancer]

While Castro does imprison political prisoners.........

.

You omit the thousands executed by the Cuban Communists.

Edited November 27, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Higgly]

Right!

And the boat people were just economic migrants.

You betray a serious deficiency is modern history if you think the Laotians or the NV did not wage war against their own peoples.

In the case of Laos it was against the Hmong.....with the NV it was the ethnic Chinese and anyone who was in their mind, Bourgeois.

Not withstanding your irrelevant jab at the US, while there are dozens of non communist countries who have never sytematically tries to murder their own people, not one communist country is so lucky.

The boat people were south Vietnamese who fled after the collapse of resistance and the defeat of the Americans. Don't forget this was a civil war. The south would have done exactly the same to the north had they won.

The Chinese and the Vietnamese have fought for centuries. After the Americans left, the Chinese attacked.

As for Laos, that too was a civil war, and nothing compared to the heavy bombardment of Laos by the US.

I notice you didn't mention Cuba, though...

Edited November 27, 2007 by Higgly

[M.Dancer]

The boat people were south Vietnamese who fled after the collapse of resistance and the defeat of the Americans. Don't forget this was a civil war. The south would have done exactly the same to the north had they won.

The Chinese and the Vietnamese have fought for centuries. After the Americans left, the Chinese attacked.

As for Laos, that too was a civil war, and nothing compared to the heavy bombardment of Laos by the US.

Ummm......the boat people fled or in the case of the chinese there, were forced to leave and were leaving years after the war ended.

The laotians were murdering Hmong up until the 90s and beyond, if amnesty int'l can be believed.

[Higgly]

Ummm......the boat people fled or in the case of the chinese there, were forced to leave and were leaving years after the war ended.

The laotians were murdering Hmong up until the 90s and beyond, if amnesty int'l can be believed.

As I recall, those boat people were being referred to as economic refugees when they tried to apply for refugee status here and in Australia.

Don't forget that the Hmong fought with the US against the North Vietnamese. Reprisal killings are wrong, I agree, but I would argue these are special circumstances that would fall outside of a general statement that Commuist governments slaughter their own people.

[Sulaco]

The boat people were south Vietnamese who fled after the collapse of resistance and the defeat of the Americans. Don't forget this was a civil war. The south would have done exactly the same to the north had they won.

The Chinese and the Vietnamese have fought for centuries. After the Americans left, the Chinese attacked.

As for Laos, that too was a civil war, and nothing compared to the heavy bombardment of Laos by the US.

I notice you didn't mention Cuba, though...

And I notice you do not mention the de-"kulakization" of North Vietnam prior to "the fall of resistance" in the Republic of South Vietnam

But hey - whetevah.

Your assertion that "the south would have done the same" is unsupportable.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Sulaco

[Sulaco]

The boat people were south Vietnamese who fled after the collapse of resistance and the defeat of the Americans. Don't forget this was a civil war. The south would have done exactly the same to the north had they won.

The Chinese and the Vietnamese have fought for centuries. After the Americans left, the Chinese attacked.

As for Laos, that too was a civil war, and nothing compared to the heavy bombardment of Laos by the US.

I notice you didn't mention Cuba, though...

Why this constant invocation of "civil war". It seems to be used to cure perceived ills and indict the US in the Vietnam conflict.

The assumption that go into this continued invocation in all its forms re Vietnam should be examined.

Is intervention in civil war per se wrong? Each and every post SU conflict in the former Yugoslavia fit the mold of civil war. So did Somalia and Rwanda. Yet we wanted intervention in Rwanda - it did not materialize.

Does the fact that its a civil war justify greater barbarism on the aprt of the participants? Does it especially explain it?

What are the rules of foreign intervention in civil war? Should no one intervene? What if one side gets foreign help? Must the other side remain unsupported?

I guess what I am asking is - in what context is "oh it was a civil war" really relevant.

[M.Dancer]

I guess what I am asking is - in what context is "oh it was a civil war" really relevant.

No kidding....certainly allows for vindication of the early soviets when dealing in a genocidal manner with White Russians, Kosacks, Ukranians, Tatars, Chechnyans, Estonians......etc etc ad infinitum...after all, there was war going on.....

[ScottSA]

Fine. Why do you keep trying to deflect this discussion?

Leave the thread. Now. Please.

Achtung! Achtung! Leaf! Now!

[Black Dog]

Moxie:

Left leaning Commies always make excuses for brutal killers like Stalin.

Then it shouldn't be hard for you to produce an example, then.

jbg

. Jeanne Kirkpatrict wrote an excellent article, that I'd be willing to e-mail to anyone who PM's me their e-mail address, abouto the difference between totalitarian rulers, such as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and less-vicious authoritarians.

The crux of which was that what she terms "traditional autocracies" are better because they don't rock the boat and retain "existing allocations of wealth, power, status, and other re- sources which in most traditional societies favor an affluent few and maintain masses in poverty." Which fits nicely in with the entire Reaganoid program.

[ScottSA]

North Vietnam and Laos. You might include Cuba under this category. While Castro does imprison political prisoners, Batista before him did much worse.

And don't forget the happy smiling faces in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge! BTW, Batista didn't make a habit of slaughtering thousands under extra-legal whim judgements by Che, the psychotic under-endowed freakshow.

Some would argue that the US has had several reigns of terror - they just do it to someone else. For example, Iran under the Shah.

And some would argue that Bush arranged 911 and that man never set foot on the moon. Some would even argue that the earth is flat. You're aligning yourself in good company!

[Higgly]

Or the burning of Atlanta.

In a civil war you have two sides fighting for control of one country. They fight until one side defeats the other.

If the south had won in Vietnam you can be damned sure there would have been a bloodbath in Hanoi. Just look at what happened to Diem while the US conveniently looked the other way. You think the south was run by a bunch of school ma'rms?

However, I concede that the execution of landowners by the North Vietnamese (which I missed)3 takes them off the list.

I see Cuba has still not been mentioned. I take then, M.Dancer, I have named the one you asked for ?

[M.Dancer]

I see Cuba has still not been mentioned. I take then, M.Dancer, I have named the one you asked for ?

You missed cuba too....

[ScottSA]

Or the burning of Atlanta.

In a civil war you have two sides fighting for control of one country. They fight until one side defeats the other.

If the south had won in Vietnam you can be damned sure there would have been a bloodbath in Hanoi. Just look at what happened to Diem while the US conveniently looked the other way. You think the south was run by a bunch of school ma'rms?

I hate to break this little historical tidbit to you, but the South wasn't fighting to occupy North Vietnam, it was fighting to keep North Vietnam out of South Vietnam. I have another newsflash for you too...Vietnam wasn't a civil war; it was two sovereign nations at war. And just what does the overthrow of Diem have in parallel with some hypothetical never-contemplated occupation of North Vietnam?

If the US hadn't cared about the war escalating with China and the USSR, and if the war aim had been the takeover of North Vietnam, it would have done so in a week. Unfortunately, suceessive democratic admins in the US bought into Limited War theory and practised n incrimentalist approach.