True Nature of the Canada-US Border

[August1991]

The border between the US and Canada is an arbitrary line drawn on a map. In the real world, it stretches for several thousand kilometers and it's meaning can only be bureaucratic.

The following story illustrates this point.

Six volunteer firefighters rushing to assist a small-town fire department in upper New York State, part of a long-standing mutual-aid agreement, were held up while being grilled about their identification by a U.S. Customs official this week.

The six-man crew from the border town of Lacolle raced toward the border in a yellow fire truck, lights flashing, at about midnight on Sunday.

In the past, U.S. border guards have waved them through. This time, a customs official questioned and delayed them by between eight and 15 minutes, according to differing accounts.

Meanwhile, the landmark Anchorage Inn in Rouses Point, N.Y., burned to the ground.

“I've been crossing this border for 30 years, and the only question we were ever asked was: ‘Where's the fire?'” Lacolle fire chief Jean-Pierre Hébert told The Globe and Mail Wednesday.

“This time, we got someone zealous. He told us we'd need our passports next time.”

Tightly bound border communities have bailed out one another in emergencies for decades, with first responders crisscrossing the boundary with minimal scrutiny hundreds of times.

...

Cross-border backup is considered crucial for smaller and rural communities without the manpower and equipment of big cities. George A. Rivers, the mayor of Rouses Point, says his village of 2,400 relies on Quebec border towns; Lacolle, only 12 kilometres away, is nearer than local American communities, he said.

G & M

The story has the added bonus that the "small Americans" must rely on the "big Canadians" for their fire-fighting protection.

Edited November 15, 2007 by August1991

[Wilber]

In the past, U.S. border guards have waved them through. This time, a customs official questioned and delayed them by between eight and 15 minutes, according to differing accounts.

Next time let's hope it is his house that is on fire.

[guyser]

The border between the US and Canada is an arbitrary line drawn on a map. In the real world, it stretches for several thousand kilometers and it's meaning can only be bureaucratic.

The following story illustrates this point.

G & M

The story has the added bonus that the "small Americans" must rely on the "big Canadians" for their fire-fighting protection.

What really surpises me is the ease that a solution could have been putn in place. The towns on the border know how it goes. Yell fire and rescue comes, regardless of nationalty. Works great everytime.

So, get together , and pre screen the firemen, both sides. so when truck comes flying down the road, open the gate and let them fight a fire. How dumb, on both sides.

I suspect though, that the proprietors of Anchorage Inn will be having quite the colourful conversation with their own towns border guards. I suspect he , or she, will be ripped a new one.

[M.Dancer]

How times change....

My brother used to live in Lacolle and always did his shopping on the otherside of the border like every other resident of lacolle. He would but his gas there, buy his beer, wine and groceries. Never got stopped on either side because he knew the staff on both sides and they know who's local and who's not. The only problems they would ever have would be from 18 year olds coming up from New York to buy beer and booze in town. Regulary rented vans coming back from NewYork would be stopped and searched....or you could wait till after 8PM and the customs office closed......

How times change

[guyser]

How times change....

...or you could wait till after 8PM and the customs office closed......

How times change

Pretty sure there are still places like that.

I lived in Rossland BC, and a mere 3 K down the road was a border stop. Closed at night, so if we wanted beer we could call our friends in the US and meet them at the border. They would pass it over the barrier.

If you wanted entry, just 4 wheel it ten yards to the west and get back on the road.

Probably a little tighter now.

[M.Dancer]

Pretty sure there are still places like that.

I lived in Rossland BC, and a mere 3 K down the road was a border stop. Closed at night, so if we wanted beer we could call our friends in the US and meet them at the border. They would pass it over the barrier.

If you wanted entry, just 4 wheel it ten yards to the west and get back on the road.

Probably a little tighter now.

When I said closed, I didn't mean the highway was closed.....you just drove on by.

When I was younger I did the faire de pouce all though europe. I was leaving holland and got picked up by 4 frenchmen in a renualt chanque (tight fit). They were bringing home to Paris about a kilo of hash they bought in Amstergram. Now I was nervous, while not a Turkish prison I had visons of Midnight Express .....anyway, they reassured me that there would be no problem becasue all the customs would be closed for the night. And on we motored past te dutch frontier, the Belgium, Luxenbourg and finally french......still as the chillums went by I abstained ......till we arrived in the suberbs.....

I went throughout all of northern europe and never got a stamp on my passport.....but that was 1978

[Fortunata]

In the past, U.S. border guards have waved them through. This time, a customs official questioned and delayed them by between eight and 15 minutes, according to differing accounts.

“I've been crossing this border for 30 years, and the only question we were ever asked was: ‘Where's the fire?'” Lacolle fire chief Jean-Pierre Hébert told The Globe and Mail Wednesday.

“This time, we got someone zealous. He told us we'd need our passports next time.”

Tightly bound border communities have bailed out one another in emergencies for decades, with first responders crisscrossing the boundary with minimal scrutiny hundreds of times.

...

Cross-border backup is considered crucial for smaller and rural communities without the manpower and equipment of big cities. George A. Rivers, the mayor of Rouses Point, says his village of 2,400 relies on Quebec border towns; Lacolle, only 12 kilometres away, is nearer than local American communities, he said.

This is really sad. The USA government declared a war on terrorism but, in reality, it has created a war on ordinary everyday individuals that have nothing in mind other than going to work to support their families, supporting their communities and taking their kids to minor hockey, soccer and softball.

As far as passports are concerned, it is surprising, being a border guard and all, that they didn't realize travelers by road won't need passports until 2008(?) and maybe not even then according to news reports today.

[jdobbin]

The story has the added bonus that the "small Americans" must rely on the "big Canadians" for their fire-fighting protection.

Same thing happened in California when Quebec water bombers were delayed from getting to the fires while house after house burned to the ground.

Edited November 16, 2007 by jdobbin

[Topaz]

Something else today in Windsor. One of the members of the CAW, had a heart attack was taken to Windsor hospital and was transported to a Detroit specialty hospital in heart attacks, after the Canadian hospital made the call to ask if they could take him. When they got to the border the customs held them there until they searched the ambulance for.. TERRORISTS!! The guy had flatlined 3X before he made to the US hospital!! I think the US customs needs to bring in MORE common sense!!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

Something else today in Windsor. One of the members of the CAW, had a heart attack was taken to Windsor hospital and was transported to a Detroit specialty hospital in heart attacks, after the Canadian hospital made the call to ask if they could take him. When they got to the border the customs held them there until they searched the ambulance for.. TERRORISTS!! The guy had flatlined 3X before he made to the US hospital!! I think the US customs needs to bring in MORE common sense!!!!

Screw that....let 'em wait! Could be Ressam's brother hiding in there with more bombs. Spend more money on health care infrastructure for chrissakes and such border dashes to save lives would be less necessary.

[Oleg Bach]

Screw that....let 'em wait! Could be Ressam's brother hiding in there with more bombs. Spend more money on health care infrastructure for chrissakes and such border dashes to save lives would be less necessary.

Maybe the heart attack victim has dark brown eyes and a big scarey beard..they should have tazered him all the way to Detroit to make sure they kept him alive long enough to send him on a holiday on the south side of Cuba ----- you would think that an ambulance may have some lee way - but the HIGHLY TRAINED boarder guards have to make sure...the not quite dead dead man on the stretcher may have been holding a dirty bomb in a place where the western sun never sets. What's that smell? - it's terrifying.

[bush_cheney2004]

What's that smell? - it's terrifying.

Just another dead guy....Taser fried by Canada. People die every day for all kinds of reasons..."delay at the border" would not be the cause of death. Usual suspects, please tell me about that superior Canadian health care system again.

[Guest American Woman]

Something else today in Windsor. One of the members of the CAW, had a heart attack was taken to Windsor hospital and was transported to a Detroit specialty hospital in heart attacks, after the Canadian hospital made the call to ask if they could take him. When they got to the border the customs held them there until they searched the ambulance for.. TERRORISTS!! The guy had flatlined 3X before he made to the US hospital!! I think the US customs needs to bring in MORE common sense!!!!

I was on a flight out of Heathrow on a British airline that had a medical emergency on board before we took off, and yes, the emergency personnel had to go through a security check-- they and their equipment were all searched-- before being allowed to board the plane to treat the woman/take her off the plane and transport her to the hospital. That would be British security, not American. This is the way of it post 9-11, and while one can criticize and question the "common sense" of it, one has to realize it's not unique to the U.S. In other words, criticize the action, not the U.S.

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

I was on a flight out of Heathrow on a British airline that had a medical emergency on board before we took off, and yes, the emergency personnel had to go through a security check-- they and their equipment were all searched-- before being allowed to board the plane to treat the woman. That would be British security, not American. This is the way of it post 9-11, and while one can criticize and question the "common sense" of it, one has to realize it's not unique to the U.S. In other words, criticize the action, not the U.S.

Good morning my friend. Hyper vigilant policies are everwhere. Must be something in the water. What it does show internationally is that there is a lot of fear - not in the population but in the disconnected administrators who do not understand Christianity - do not have an incling of Islam..not to mention that traditional Judaism has all but been replaced by secularism...back tracking for a moment and correcting myself..all religions have been replaced by a stange secularism and it is evident because no one is behaving in a sense of common goodness. Those that are connected internationally and rule internationally - some call then neo-cons - some refere to them as globalist..

- although they are well connected to each other, they are totally seperated from the common population because of class and privledge...so they are terrified of the unknown..this is the results of the great disconnect. Now there is a paranoid manifestation of this disconnect...and a few are dragging us all into their nightmare...just which that the powers that be would admit that wealth and influence needs true wisdom - and money does not buy intelligence..that they must utilize all human resourse...but they are just to proud to admit they are not gods. Time for our international elite to get off their high horses and talk a walk about and maybe talk to real people.

[Wilber]

I was on a flight out of Heathrow on a British airline that had a medical emergency on board before we took off, and yes, the emergency personnel had to go through a security check-- they and their equipment were all searched-- before being allowed to board the plane to treat the woman/take her off the plane and transport her to the hospital. That would be British security, not American. This is the way of it post 9-11, and while one can criticize and question the "common sense" of it, one has to realize it's not unique to the U.S. In other words, criticize the action, not the U.S.

Heathrow has always been one of the most security conscious airports in the world going back to the troubles with the IRA. If the emergency people were not based on the airport, they would have to be checked but surely the airport ERT (firefighters etc) people were handling the situation before the ambulance arrived.

Just another dead guy....Taser fried by Canada. People die every day for all kinds of reasons..."delay at the border" would not be the cause of death. Usual suspects, please tell me about that superior Canadian health care system again.

I think that should be "delay at the border" shouldn't be the cause of death. There are probably a few places on our border where the closest, biggest, best medical facility is on the Canadian side and the appropriate thing would be to get a patient there regardless of which side of the border they were on.

[Guest American Woman]

Heathrow has always been one of the most security conscious airports in the world going back to the troubles with the IRA. If the emergency people were not based on the airport, they would have to be checked but surely the airport ERT (firefighters etc) people were handling the situation before the ambulance arrived.

Surely the ambulance attendants were handling the situation while they were being searched at the border in Detroit, too. No difference between the situation you cited and the one I described. Each had care while they were being delayed in getting to the hospital by security checks.

So if Britain's actions show that it is "security conscious," the same would be said of the United States, right? I fail to understand why the security check would be ok in one instance and not the other.

Good morning my friend. Hyper vigilant policies are everwhere. Must be something in the water. What it does show internationally is that there is a lot of fear - not in the population ....

Good morning, OB. From what I saw on the plane and what see here, there's plenty of fear in the population too. Passengers on the plane were uneasy with the emergency team entering the plane, and needed assurance from the flight attendants that they had been required to go through security. Plenty of people on this board are fearful of Islam/Muslims.

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[August1991]

I was on a flight out of Heathrow on a British airline that had a medical emergency on board before we took off, and yes, the emergency personnel had to go through a security check-- they and their equipment were all searched-- before being allowed to board the plane to treat the woman/take her off the plane and transport her to the hospital. That would be British security, not American. This is the way of it post 9-11, and while one can criticize and question the "common sense" of it, one has to realize it's not unique to the U.S. In other words, criticize the action, not the U.S.

There is a large difference between an airport and a land border. To begin with, I would expect that anyone boarding a plane even for a domestic flight would have to be checked. The four planes hijacked planes in September 2001 were all domestic flights.

As to intercontinental flights, this is the main way to control who enters the US (and Canada). We can feasibly control foreigners entering North America by controlling who boards aircraft abroad. I would expect checks at Heathrow for flights to the US (or Canada) would be more stringent. Once in North America, there is little anyone can do.

The land border between Canada and the US is better compared to the border between Quebec and Ontario or the border between Pennsylvania and New York State. The fact that there is an inspection post between Detroit and Windsor gives the false impression that our governments control cross border movements. They don't.

The effect is simply to impose needless cost on honest people as the story in the OP illustrates.

When I said closed, I didn't mean the highway was closed.....you just drove on by.

When I was younger I did the faire de pouce all though europe. I was leaving holland and got picked up by 4 frenchmen in a renualt chanque (tight fit). They were bringing home to Paris about a kilo of hash they bought in Amstergram. Now I was nervous, while not a Turkish prison I had visons of Midnight Express .....anyway, they reassured me that there would be no problem becasue all the customs would be closed for the night. And on we motored past te dutch frontier, the Belgium, Luxenbourg and finally french......still as the chillums went by I abstained ......till we arrived in the suberbs.....

I went throughout all of northern europe and never got a stamp on my passport.....but that was 1978

About three years ago, I drove from Paris to Amsterdam. The borders between France, Belgium and Holland no longer exist in any sense at all. They now are simply truck weighing stations. I frankly think that the US and Canadian border should be the same. If the Europeans can do it surely we can too. Edited November 18, 2007 by August1991

[ScottSA]

Something else today in Windsor. One of the members of the CAW, had a heart attack was taken to Windsor hospital and was transported to a Detroit specialty hospital in heart attacks, after the Canadian hospital made the call to ask if they could take him. When they got to the border the customs held them there until they searched the ambulance for.. TERRORISTS!! The guy had flatlined 3X before he made to the US hospital!! I think the US customs needs to bring in MORE common sense!!!!

They just don't care for unions. Perhaps because unions suck so much money out of Medicare that we have to ship patients to the US?

Edited November 18, 2007 by ScottSA

[Oleg Bach]

They just don't care for unions. Perhaps because unions suck so much money out of Medicare that we have to ship patients to the US?

There are few unions left...I have seen examples of people working for 8 dollars an hour who belong to unions and they pay into them. Seems that the trend is for corporations is to create fiat unions and futher maximize the bottom line. Those ladies that do a lousey job cleaning hospitals are of the traditional union that still exists - we can thank them for the spread of hospital infections that kill thousands every year...what ever happened to people who do a job right?

[Moxie]

They just don't care for unions. Perhaps because unions suck so much money out of Medicare that we have to ship patients to the US?

Yep I concur, since our hospitals have unionized healthcare has taken a sharp decline in the name of "Policy". Unions aided by socialist idiology and our "Health Board" runs said hospitals with total stupidity. I long for the old days when doctors and nurses ran our hospitals with efficiency, now we have idiots with B.A.s running our hospitals, more red tape than a human being can cope with. Twice the people doing the same jobs that were done by one person, add an assistant to an assistant to the Assistant well you get the picture. Complete incompetance is the new world order, only mea culpa isn't applicable.

[Guest American Woman]

About three years ago, I drove from Paris to Amsterdam. The borders between France, Belgium and Holland no longer exist in any sense at all. They now are simply truck weighing stations. I frankly think that the US and Canadian border should be the same. If the Europeans can do it surely we can too.

One can only drive from country to country without a border check within the European Union, so we had to stop at the Swiss border, for example, when driving through Europe. So I suppose the U.S. and Canada would have to be in some kind of union in order for our borders to be open and unpatrolled in the same way. I am sorry to see all the heightened security at our borders, but in some ways, deep down, I guess I realize it's a necessity. I doubt we have to go to such extremes, but I can't see an open border like within the EU, either. Although I suppose it really wouldn't be that much different--

Any other views on this? I think it's an interesting concept.

Edited November 20, 2007 by American Woman

[Higgly]

One can only drive from country to country without a border check within the European Union, so we had to stop at the Swiss border, for example, when driving through Europe. So I suppose the U.S. and Canada would have to be in some kind of union in order for our borders to be open and unpatrolled in the same way. I am sorry to see all the heightened security at our borders, but in some ways, deep down, I guess I realize it's a necessity. I doubt we have to go to such extremes, but I can't see an open border like within the EU, either. Although I suppose it really wouldn't be that much different--

Any other views on this? I think it's an interesting concept.

I agree. But this is a territory with a very long history balanced by equals. The English/French/German/Spanish/Italian dialectic is one of equals: they can make each other equally miserable, and they have the archives to prove it...

It's different over here.

[fellowtraveller]

One can only drive from country to country without a border check within the European Union, so we had to stop at the Swiss border, for example, when driving through Europe.

Not quite.

There are extensive checks coming and going from the UK to France or vice versa, on British soil.

They search, check papers, have dogs and sniffer technology, but what they really looking for are people smuggling themselves into Britain. The French make little effort to prevent illegals from leaving France and entering the UK. What a surprise there......Going the other way, they are trying to prevent people from blowing up the Chunnel or ferries.

[Guest American Woman]

We did go through an extensive security check going from Paris to London, but I figured that was because we were going by train. I'm assuming trains, like planes, have security checks even within nations.

[guyser]

Update.

The ambulance that was detained at the Windsor/Detroit border had a police escort and pre-approval to cross.

It was a computer that randomly selects vehicles for inspection that created the mess. Of course the border guard should have ignored it but....there you go.

As for the Anchorage Inn, they were supposed to go on right through, but border officials stopped them to check ID. Some were lacking photos. The guards claim 9 minutes, the firemen 15 delayed minutes.