Tasered Polish Man

[August1991]

The problem is you did NOT see it yourself. You saw a 10 minute video that only provides a narrow view of the incident. You don't have enough information to form a final opinion. You are deluding yourself if you think you do.

Riverwind, the video provides enough information to know that the initial RCMP version was false.

The RCMP tried to confiscate the video and only released after the owner brought in a lawyer. The RCMP commissioner said nothing for 34 days after this man's death.

RCMP spokesman Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre subsequently told reporters that when police arrived on the scene, they tried to calm down Dziekanski, but he continued "throwing things around" until he had to be subdued. False.

Lemaitre went on to say the first Taser shot "didn't seem to have any effect on him." False.

The officers held the victim down by the shoulders face up, he said. False.

The one thing the RCMP spokesman did not mention to the media was they had seized Pritchard's home-video showing the entire incident.

Indeed, if Pritchard had not taken court action to get his video back, and then posted it on the web last week, the RCMP might well have gotten away with explanations of the incident we would generously describe as a pile of crap.

And where was commissioner Elliott while all of this deception was going on in his department?

For 34 days after Dziekanski's death, Elliott remained completely silent, finally issuing a statement last Saturday -- four days after the damning video became public.

Elliott called the affair "tragic," but insisted that while the images on the video are "disturbing," no one should draw conclusions from them.

Baloney. One conclusion from the video is that the RCMP spokesman was not telling the truth.

Greg Weston

Riverwind, having taken one position early on, you are just being stubborn.

This case raises extremely troubling questions about the RCMP - but this is not something new.

[old_bold&cold]

It is always a tradgedy when we see that a death was preventable and then in shock we tend to over react to what needs to be done. I do not believe that the taser was what killed this man. The take down after wards was proabably what will be the cause of death, and I see that same method of police piling on a suspect everyday, and I have always said it was wrong. There is never any need for that much weight to be applied to a suspect, and it is brutality in its rawest form. These officers are all guilty of murder, and deserve to be tried on charges of second degree murder. If there is any justice in the world, this would happen. It is caught on tape as it happened and there is no doubt as to the time line and events. It was all done in the name of being too lazy to do what they were supposed to do. That should have been:

1/first try to determine what is upsetting the man involved.

2/Since they could not tell the language, find a translator and have him translate.

3/ Offer assistence to find this mans realive that was waiting at another gate of the airport.

4/ only use force if they were issues dangerous to the public at large, and to guage that force to that which is the minimum needed to restrain the person.

These 4 officers did not do any of this and instead used taser( way too much force ) to subdue the upset man. Then pile on him physically crushing him and then death. They did not need to do that, and so they are guitly for all the things that their actions caused. They should not be on duty again until this is all settled and I believe that all 4 officers should be removed with cause from the force. The murdered an man on tape in a situation of their own making and that should mean they pay for that.

We do not want or need that type of police officer in this country and I do not want any of my tax dollars being spent trying to defend them in any of this. If the police believe that this was a good take down, then they should use their own union funds to pay for the expense of a trial for their men. The tax payers will be on the hook for the monetary settlement with this persons family, but that should also be then that each officer should also have to pay their share of the settlement and from their own assests.

[runningdog]

"We do not want or need that type of police officer in this country and I do not want any of my tax dollars being spent trying to defend them in any of this. If the police believe that this was a good take down, then they should use their own union funds to pay for the expense of a trial for their men. The tax payers will be on the hook for the monetary settlement with this persons family, but that should also be then that each officer should also have to pay their share of the settlement and from their own assests"

very well said.

[Riverwind]

---

Edited November 20, 2007 by Riverwind

[Riverwind]

The take down after wards was probably what will be the cause of death, and I see that same method of police piling on a suspect everyday, and I have always said it was wrong. There is never any need for that much weight to be applied to a suspect, and it is brutality in its rawest form.

An interesting opinion that may have some merit. However, I suspect the police are trained to do take downs in this way and I am not convinced that there are any practical alternatives.

These officers are all guilty of murder, and deserve to be tried on charges of second degree murder.

Ridiculous. Even if your prior statement was reasonable then the officers simply did what they were trained to do. If that is the case then this incident is simply a tragic accident that requires changes to police procedures.

If there is any justice in the world, this would happen.

If there was justice in the world people people would learn to separate fact from opinion before condemning people.

[mikedavid00]

Repeat after me...It was a mistake... all the bantering and absurd justifications will not remove the mistake.

Exactly.

It's funny this mornign on the CBC showcasing activist, after activist.

However, I do have to admit, i'm not very happy with the RCMP and how they are simply unaccountable. It's a bit too 3rd world for me.

I'd like the RCMP to be much smaller of a federal agency and stop 'policing'. They also need to be held to account. But that really isn't related to this taser issue.

And oh yes, doesn't the average RCMP office make like $80,000 a year from our tax dollars?

[mikedavid00]

This case raises extremely troubling questions about the RCMP - but this is not something new.

I agree.

But the actual accident of the taser is not related to this at all.

I also find the RCMP to be a bit too protected and unacountable in a 3rd world sort of way.

Actually, remember that theft of funds by insiders of the RCMP? That story lasted.. umm.. 2 days maybe?

And that story got burried under a rug pretty quick..

As a Canadian who 'owns' and funds my RCMP, I will say that I simply do not 'trust them' and they need to be re-hauled.

[Higgly]

Exactly.

It's funny this mornign on the CBC showcasing activist, after activist.

However, I do have to admit, i'm not very happy with the RCMP and how they are simply unaccountable. It's a bit too 3rd world for me.

I'd like the RCMP to be much smaller of a federal agency and stop 'policing'. They also need to be held to account. But that really isn't related to this taser issue.

And oh yes, doesn't the average RCMP office make like $80,000 a year from our tax dollars?

This is a guy who believed in Canada, was a law-abiding citizen in a difficult country, and came here to see his mother. There is no way out. We killed this guy and he did not deserve it.

Human Rights, or what?

[Riverwind]

This is a guy who believed in Canada, was a law-abiding citizen in a difficult country, and came here to see his mother. There is no way out. We killed this guy and he did not deserve it.

He could have been run down by a taxi outside the airport. That does not mean 'we' killed the guy. Some accidents are preventable - but that does not change the fact that they were accidents. Some accidents are caused by negligence where the individuals involved are liable - that does make 'us' responsible. Negligence only occurs when someone did not do what they should have done - we won't know if the officers did what they should have done until the inquiry completes. Human rights does not even enter into the discussion at all - this was an accident and the only question is if negligence was involved. Edited November 20, 2007 by Riverwind

[luvacuppajoe]

Actually if you had bothered to read the article it states that he cleared customs at 4:00 and then at 10:30 he found his luggage (with assistance) and proceeded through the second inspection and on to Immigration. As I said, it's a minor inaccuracy but one nonetheless.

And as *I* already said, the timetable, which you are quoting from, is in error. So obviously I read the article. It's snide, ignorant remarks like yours that tell me when it's not worth my time to contiue in a discussion, so I read as far as what I quoted above and knew it wasn't worth my time to read any more and/or continue this discussion with you.

The timetable that I am quoting from is one you provided. I wondered if you'd read the entire article because at end the timeline reiterates what the author said about clearing customs so it's not a typo, it's a factual error.

You can't cite shoddy journalism as a credible source and then retreat with insults when someone points out its flaws. well, I guess you can if you have nothing left to debate.

Edited November 20, 2007 by luvacuppajoe

[luvacuppajoe]

A former cop speaks out, and pretty much echos what I said yesterday.

As a retired police officer with 27 years of street experience, I find that the video of Robert Dziekanski's last moments at the Vancouver Airport most disturbing. The RCMP officers' first error was their approach. One officer should have been making the initial approach; all four at the same time only heightened everyone's anxiety level. Another critical error was in surrounding this man, leaving him no mental avenue of escape. The surrounding of this individual escalated the tension for both the officers and this individual, both expecting a confrontation to occur.

The lack of proper training demonstrated by the RCMP officers in this situation led to this man's death. It's a cultural thing within the RCMP that I have witnessed on many occasions: they promote themselves as the best-trained police force on the planet, when in fact they are still operating as if they were roaming the plains of the 1880s.

Larry A. Lockwood, Saskatoon Police Service, ret'd, Vernon, B.C.

[Guest American Woman]

Don't give up and retract your service Ameican woman. Sometimes you have to spoon feed stubborn born. Be patient and do not anger or sense disappointment..things take time - and to come to an honest understanding is not like making instant pudding - keep the dialogue goining or you HAVE wasted your time - the job is not done yet. I found when dealing with Americans - You have to show committment - and win their trust, making them know for certain that you are a friend - then and only then will you come to agreement. Walking away from the table is an error - give more - more time...all come to their senses in time.

I never walk away from the table. I'm too stubborn for that. I won't continue a conversation that's a waste of time, though.

I find it troubling how many people are ready to convict the officers without a trial; without even hearing the side of the officers who were involved. I find that very troubling in democracies where one is supposed to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. What is the purpose of an investigation/inquistion/trial if all one needs to do is look at a snippet of what happend; a snippet that at times is obstructed?

I can't believe some of the media outlets have the officers "storming in" when the obviously very calmly entered, asking in a calm voice 'how do you do, sir?' I can't believe people/some media outlets are likening their actions to an execution. We can't even see what went on behind the counter when he apparently picked up a metal stapler. We don't know if, in light of his throwing things around earlier, they feared he would throw it at their heads. We also have no idea how much pressure they put on him once he was on the ground. How could we possibly know that? We do know that they are trained to believe tasering is a harmless way of subduing someone. Given this man's previous behavior, he did need to be subdued. If they felt the language barrier made it impossible to communicate with him at that given moment, that they needed to subdue him in order to get the situation under control, who are we to say that was an "inappropriate" way to handle it? In hindsight we know it was the wrong choice, because we know the man died. But how was anyone to know that beforehand?

We all make mistakes in our jobs, and don't always make the best choices, because we are human. For some the mistakes have much more dire consequenses. Police and doctors, for example. But police and doctors are still human, and as such, will make mistakes. To judge them as executioners, murderers, etc. because of it boggles the mind.

Edited November 20, 2007 by American Woman

[Carinthia]

After watching the video myself, listening to and reading the thoughts of a few ex RCMP officers, and the fact that the BC Premier has apologized to guy's Mother, there is no doubt in my mind that the cops blew it big time. There is no rush to judgement happening. We are not all riddled with predjudices and we are not all too stupid that we can't comprehend what we are seeing either. If that tape was so inconclusive, then why has a formal inquiry been called and why has the Premier already apologized? Very un Campbell like, if you ask me.

[Guest American Woman]

If that tape was so inconclusive, then why has a formal inquiry been called and why has the Premier already apologized? Very un Campbell like, if you ask me.

If the tape weren't inconclusive, then there would be no need for a formal inquiry. I would think the Premier has apologized because an accidental death occured.

[DrGreenthumb]

I can't believe how many people are still trying to defend the actions of these neanderthals. I don't think we need a ban on tazers, we need a ban on overly aggressive cops who use tazers inapropriately. We can't even get the truth out of the cops when they are proven to be lying on video. If 4 civilians were caught on video brutally assaulting someone and causing their death they would would be sitting in jail cells right now awaiting trial on murder charges, as they should be. These zap-happy pigs havn't even lost a day's pay.

What really scares me is that this type of behavior isn't all that uncommon in the modern cop. Like I said before this is partly due to the new hiring practices easing away from size requirements.

In the old days when cops were 6 foot 4 and 250 lbs, their size alone was enough to get the cooperation of most people. That may be totally non politically correct to say but I think everyone was safer when cops were big strong men.

The worst part is with Harper's Hard-on for bringing a US style drug war to Canada, he will be giving pigs like these free reign to abuse our citizens and our children. Easy for some of you to brush off the death of a new polish immigrant like his life means nothing, but how will you react when it is your son or daughter tazed to death? Maybe because they resisted the cop who tried to dig in their pockets to find their gram of weed? Right now almost nobody resists a search by cops even when their constitutional rights are being violated because they know that a judge is probably not going to throw them in jail over simple drug possession. You think more people aren't going to try to run or fight to get away when they know that bag of weed is going to buy them 2 years in jail? If you think that is so farfetched, you only have to look south of the border to see that I am right. If you cons think three strikes laws and mandatory jail for non-violent drug offences is such a great idea then why are Canadian cities so much safer than american ones? The harsher the penalty you place on drug offences the more desperation and violence you create. People have always been ready to fight and die for their freedom.

If you think stiff penalties for drugs deter people from using them again all you need to do is look south of the border to see how very wrong you are.

I am going to write a letter to the polish ambassador expressing my sincere sorrow and disgust at how my countries police murdered this man, and reccomend that he warn his countrymen to avoid travel to Canada until we remove the fascist conservatives from power. It is unfortunate that we have let the right wing nuts scare us into accepting the conversion of our country from the true north, strong and FREE, into a police state. We have lost the respect of the rest of the world.

[Carinthia]

I can't believe how many people are still trying to defend the actions of these neanderthals. I don't think we need a ban on tazers, we need a ban on overly aggressive cops who use tazers inapropriately. We can't even get the truth out of the cops when they are proven to be lying on video. If 4 civilians were caught on video brutally assaulting someone and causing their death they would would be sitting in jail cells right now awaiting trial on murder charges, as they should be. These zap-happy pigs havn't even lost a day's pay.

What really scares me is that this type of behavior isn't all that uncommon in the modern cop. Like I said before this is partly due to the new hiring practices easing away from size requirements.

In the old days when cops were 6 foot 4 and 250 lbs, their size alone was enough to get the cooperation of most people. That may be totally non politically correct to say but I think everyone was safer when cops were big strong men.

The worst part is with Harper's Hard-on for bringing a US style drug war to Canada, he will be giving pigs like these free reign to abuse our citizens and our children. Easy for some of you to brush off the death of a new polish immigrant like his life means nothing, but how will you react when it is your son or daughter tazed to death? Maybe because they resisted the cop who tried to dig in their pockets to find their gram of weed? Right now almost nobody resists a search by cops even when their constitutional rights are being violated because they know that a judge is probably not going to throw them in jail over simple drug possession. You think more people aren't going to try to run or fight to get away when they know that bag of weed is going to buy them 2 years in jail? If you think that is so farfetched, you only have to look south of the border to see that I am right. If you cons think three strikes laws and mandatory jail for non-violent drug offences is such a great idea then why are Canadian cities so much safer than american ones? The harsher the penalty you place on drug offences the more desperation and violence you create. People have always been ready to fight and die for their freedom.

If you think stiff penalties for drugs deter people from using them again all you need to do is look south of the border to see how very wrong you are.

I am going to write a letter to the polish ambassador expressing my sincere sorrow and disgust at how my countries police murdered this man, and reccomend that he warn his countrymen to avoid travel to Canada until we remove the fascist conservatives from power. It is unfortunate that we have let the right wing nuts scare us into accepting the conversion of our country from the true north, strong and FREE, into a police state. We have lost the respect of the rest of the world.

Campbell apologized, as he should have and as I said in my earlier post, this is very unlike him. If it wasn't for the upcoming Olympics, he sure wouldn't have been so quick to humble himself. Too bad he is isn't always this transparent.

[jbg]

Campbell apologized, as he should have and as I said in my earlier post, this is very unlike him. If it wasn't for the upcoming Olympics, he sure wouldn't have been so quick to humble himself. Too bad he is isn't always this transparent.

Glen Clark was transparent? Well, maybe the glass installed in his house was.

[Carinthia]

Glen Clark was transparent? Well, maybe the glass installed in his house was.

LOL, agreed! They're all self serving crooks.

[jdobbin]

Nova Scotia man dies 20 hours after Taser hit.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story...aser-death.html

A man who was jolted with a Taser has died in a Dartmouth, N.S., jail.

The man died Thursday morning at the Burnside correctional centre, about 20 hours after police used the stun gun on him.

No other details are yet available.

Another man in B.C. is clinging to life after a Taser hit last week.

[mikedavid00]

This is a guy who believed in Canada, was a law-abiding citizen in a difficult country, and came here to see his mother. There is no way out. We killed this guy and he did not deserve it.

Human Rights, or what?

I disagree.

He was clearly an undesireable.

He should not have been granted enterance into Canada in the first place. Him and all the other of hundreds of people that landed from the airport that day.. But that's another topic.

[jbg]

He should not have been granted enterance into Canada in the first place. Him and all the other of hundreds of people that landed from the airport that day.. But that's another topic.

And your evidence?

[mikedavid00]

And your evidence?

Sorry I meant to say 'in my opinion' before I mentioned that.

[Riverwind]

And your evidence?

The guy had a criminal record and spent 5 years in jail for robbery. I don't agree with Mike on many issues but I don't think we should accept immigrants with criminal records. Edited November 22, 2007 by Riverwind

[jbg]

Sorry I meant to say 'in my opinion' before I mentioned that.

Every one is entitled to their opinion, but why would you assume he doesn't belong in Canada? And at what what point does the requirement to be able to speak English, French or Canadian attach?

[Oleg Bach]

The guy had a criminal record and spent 5 years in jail for robbery. I don't agree with Mike on many issues but I don't think we should accept immigrants think criminal records.

Speak out publically against the American administration and if what you say has to much truth - you are considered a threat and a crimminal and will be barred from entering the U S - or worse will have a very unpleasant holiday in cuba. Five years for armed robbery hugh? Did not know that...still sounds like someone is still trying to justify having a man lay on his side with his legs moving alike a dear suffering form a not so perfect head shot...saw part of the video - looked more like a hunting expedition than and arrest.

I won't speak on this anymore..I see both sides and all I can so for those who are perponents of auto-apperhension via technology...to have a person loose consciousness can only happen in a number of ways. Fainting into an oblivious state due to illness - and from blunt tramma to the head - eg being wached in the head with an iron bar. Tasers are not some sweet and safe way of inducing loss of consciousness. It takes severe injury to have a human drop to the floor in a daze. This could not be any different to the human body then hitting him on the noggin with a big round river stone. Tasering is a severe tramma to the brain and rest of the body - if it was not - you would not lose consciousness.

I could see a method of injecting a troublesome or troubled person with some dart gun that instantly filled the raging dumbo with a big doze of valium or morphine...but an electric shock so strong that you black out after recieving it falling to the floor peeing your pants is and injury. This device is not a magic wand that sends you off to la la land. You do not get something for nothing - tasers are not safe...like I said...they injure and sometimes it's a hit and miss - and the Zappee dies. It was gross to see this big strong man flailing about like a badly dispatched chichen with it's head half off. BUT of course this poor working class Pole was a big bad bank robber form a nation you would be lucky to get 50 bucks from the teller. AND as some here seem to believe - if you are a bad man and a big man - then it's ok to make you a dead man..it was badly handled and the results was tragic for all.