Pakistanis feel hoodwinked, cheated by military ruler

[Higgly]

His sabre rattling made Iran open up a tad bit more. Do you have any particular reason to be opposed to transparency regarding Iran's nuclear programmes given they have a history of lying and deceiving?

I am not opposed to it at all. I encourage all nuclear nations in the Middle East to engage in transparency. I believe that this would be a very good good time for Israel to join the transparency train, give Mordechai Vanunu his passport, and sign the NPT. I believe that it would be in the best interests of world peace for Israel to declare each and every one of its nuclear weapons.

I congratulate Iran on its nuclear transparency and disparage that western nations are not meeting this standard.

[M.Dancer]

I congratulate Iran on its nuclear transparency and disparage that western nations are not meeting this standard.

Why are you so sure they are now transparent when IEAE aren't so sure themselves?

[Higgly]

Why are you so sure they are now transparent when IEAE aren't so sure themselves?

All right. What have you got? Bring it on.

The IAEA was given whatever access it requested. This is a hell of a lot more than Israel has ever given them.

Let's not forget that the UN inspectors fled for their lives in the middle of such an investigation in Iraq, and it turned out that there was nothing to be found. The US Military had ultimate access in Iraq and found nothing. No smoking gun. No contrails. Nadda.

[M.Dancer]

All right. What have you got? Bring it on.

The IAEA was given whatever access it requested.

Are you sure about that? Seems to me if they were given all the access they requested, They would need to request more.

Mr ElBaradei told the meeting the IAEA was "unable to provide credible assurance about the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities.

We will continue this mood of co-operation provided that international community ... prevent the United States or others to make noise and create problems

"This is especially crucial in the case of Iran because of its history of undeclared activities, and the corresponding need to restore confidence in the peaceful nature of Iran's nuclear programme," he said.

*snip*

In the latest report, Mr ElBaradei said Iran has provided more information on past aspects of its nuclear programme.

But he said more co-operation was needed to explain current activity, including traces of highly enriched uranium that inspectors have found at nuclear sites.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7106796.stm

[Oleg Bach]

To much America influence. If America was truely fighting the war on terror - first thing to go would be this militarist leader who shakes hands with his right and assists terrorist with his left. When the rightful female charismatic leader of Paksitan arrives home to turely assist her people in with love and real care and concern...America is not there to assist in re-creating a civil society in this nation. A kinder and gentler government would not be of any use to imperialist corporates that inhabit the White House. Sadly Canada's hands are tied on the federal level by more surrogates that take instruction from Haliburton. It's hopeless..If you believe you can get Harper and the guys to go against cruel and barbaric American foreign policy that they for economic and egotist reasons have embraced - you have another thing coming - nothing. Nan nooo. Power has seeped up to a pinicle a prick point of extreme monitary focus..so high there is no way to communicate with those of influence who installed Harper and Bush and the rest of those front men - who will you petition to solve this abuse of Pakistan?

[Higgly]

Are you sure about that? Seems to me if they were given all the access they requested, They would need to request more.

So while Israel, a nuclear weapon nation, gives no access whatsoever, all of its neigbours must be completely open to every single possible implied request by anybody who might ever have any single doubt about any particular activity that might possibly happen.

Yikes.

[Oleg Bach]

So while Israel, a nuclear weapon nation, gives no access whatsoever, all of its neigbours must be completely open to every single possible implied request by anybody who might ever have any single doubt about any particular activity that might possibly happen.

Yikes.

Israel can do as she pleases. So can America who is husband to Israel..they have operational nukes and that's that. Besides - who cares about Iran with their clone of Bush. Russia may be a problem - or was for a while untill orgainized crime finally got fully orgainized and fully in control of weapons..it was touch and go for a while...nothing more tedious than hoods making agreements while minor hood are attempting to make a few million shipping of a nuke..once crimminals are set and up and running they become a thing called "establishment" - so no need to worry..bad guys have to become good guys to surive internationally..evil is strong but it don't quite cut it.

[bush_cheney2004]

....If you believe you can get Harper and the guys to go against cruel and barbaric American foreign policy that they for economic and egotist reasons have embraced - you have another thing coming - nothing. Nan nooo. Power has seeped up to a pinicle a prick point of extreme monitary focus..so high there is no way to communicate with those of influence who installed Harper and Bush and the rest of those front men - who will you petition to solve this abuse of Pakistan?

Ahem....it was "cruel and barbaric" American foreign policy that made Pakistan's continued existence even possible, or India would have had her way long ago. Concurrently, Canada sold CANDU reactor technology to spice up the game. All before any nonsense about Harper and Bush.

The abuse of Pakistan? LOL!

"Power" laughs at such selective memory.

Edited November 24, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Ahem....it was "cruel and barbaric" American foreign policy that made Pakistan's continued existence even possible, or India would have had her way long ago. Concurrently, Canada sold CANDU reactor technology to spice up the game. All before any nonsense about Harper and Bush.

The abuse of Pakistan? LOL!

"Power" laughs at such selective memory.

Boy you certainly put me in my place, ouch! Through the grace and kindness of American foreign policy this grand Muslim state partitioned off of the subcontinent - now currently dispises America and harbours terrorist that the Ameicans can not seem to get their hands on. Odd and Ironic that Pakistan lives because of America to some degree but America is now the proverbial hand that has just got bitten while feeding the dog. I am sure that this leader over there that loves his military uniforms as much as that fat African guy back in the 60s loved his 200 golden medals...getting back off track for more that a second..

.How does America hope to do well dealing with people that don't like her? The other thing is as far as the corporate privatization of the CIA - what good is an intelligence service that no informant will deal with? That's the problem - you do not betray your informants - so now America for all intent - has no real intelligence gathering system abroad - and taping domestic phones is just a diversion from the fact that the CIA has collapsed and is but a shell of it's former self - there must be honour amoung theives. This is the ineffectiveness brought about by people like that false intellect Carl Rove who equates intelligence to lieing - liars pay dearly - seems that now the piper is waiting for his gold coin.

[bush_cheney2004]

Boy you certainly put me in my place, ouch! Through the grace and kindness of American foreign policy this grand Muslim state partitioned off of the subcontinent - now currently dispises America and harbours terrorist that the Ameicans can not seem to get their hands on.

Canada "harbours terrorists" committed to America's demise as well.....so what? Can the dispised [sic] America soon expect wave after wave of Canuck hordes?

.How does America hope to do well dealing with people that don't like her? The other thing is as far as the corporate privatization of the CIA - what good is an intelligence service that no informant will deal with?

Are you joking? It is well known that American arrogance has never given a damn about people who don't "like her", because far more would rather immigrate to the promised land. America had Muslims before most Canadians even knew what Islam was.

[jbg]

Israel can do as she pleases. So can America who is husband to Israel..they have operational nukes and that's that.

The US needs a forward base in a stable democracy in order to project power in that part of the world and maintain a semblence of order.

Besides - who cares about Iran with their clone of Bush.

Wow. You've learned to parrot rabble rather well. Show me any evidence that Bush is on a par with "I'm a dinner jacket".

Russia may be a problem - or was for a while untill orgainized crime finally got fully orgainized and fully in control of weapons..it was touch and go for a while...nothing more tedious than hoods making agreements while minor hood are attempting to make a few million shipping of a nuke..once crimminals are set and up and running they become a thing called "establishment" - so no need to worry..bad guys have to become good guys to surive internationally..evil is strong but it don't quite cut it.

Huh? I don't follow you.

[Higgly]

Anyways, back to Pakistan.

The Pakistani Supreme Court - at least the new version of it that Musharraf has put in place to forgive him all his sins, has now blocked opposition leader Nawaz Sharif from participating in the upcoming elections.

[myata]

An interesting story on expected changes to Pakistan's constitution today: CBC.

Briefly: (former) president (currently, dictator) admits that he broke the constitution, and now, having broken it, intends to amend it so that he couldn't be prosecuted - in the future - according to the same constitution. A joke? Most interesting is that this is the type of "democracy" we - the US - support. Really. We heard lip condemnation from GW Bush. Lip service to democracy. And? What next? - Silence. As dead as silence can be. Go ahead, Musharaf. With your "democratic" elections. Even more "democratic" constitution. As long as we count you among our friends.

Now, given that this is the kind of government we encourage and sponsor, with arms and money, is it any surprise, that some part of population, even maybe significant part of population, and possibly, eventually, majority of population, won't count us among their friends? Or even worse.

[ScottSA]

So while Israel, a nuclear weapon nation, gives no access whatsoever, all of its neigbours must be completely open to every single possible implied request by anybody who might ever have any single doubt about any particular activity that might possibly happen.

Yikes.

Look up NPT.

[myata]

Look up NPT.

Yes, and despite common knowledge that Israel has actually already developed working nuclear weapons, there's been surprisingly little (if any?), shall we say, influence, put forward on it to join the NPT. Quelle mystere! Truly, wonders are abound in this world.

[DogOnPorch]

Now, given that this is the kind of government we encourage and sponsor, with arms and money, is it any surprise, that some part of population, even maybe significant part of population, and possibly, eventually, majority of population, won't count us among their friends? Or even worse.

Pakistanis are used to dictators...and it has nothing to do with the West's policies. Each time a 'civilian' government gets into 'power'...it gets ousted. Musharraf is at least not overly murderous nor is he overly provocative towards India. Under his "reign of terror", Pakistani women at least saw some reforms to the draconian Hudood Ordinances...brought into being by another dictator...General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq. No Yankee imperialist running-dogs in sight for that party.

Who would you prefer to see in power? Should the West support whomever is your ideal choice with money and weapons? What if the new "democratic civilian government" was threatened with another coup?

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The evidence of guilt was there for all to see: a newborn baby in the arms of its mother, a village woman named Zafran Bibi. Her crime: she had been raped. Her sentence: death by stoning. Now Ms. Zafran, who is about 26, is in solitary confinement in a death-row cell...

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, and despite common knowledge that Israel has actually already developed working nuclear weapons...

What proof do you actually have? No offence, but Israel has never set off a nuclear weapon. Are you merely assuming Israel has nuclear weapons? That's what the rest of the planet has to do (Amy Goodman aside)...no matter how likely it seems to be.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/index.html

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Israel does not threaten any country with anything. Never did. The most that we tried to get for ourselves is to be able to live without terror. But we never threatened any nation with annihilation. Iran openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons as America, France, Israel, Russia?

---Ehud Olmert

Edited December 14, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[myata]

Who would you prefer to see in power? Should the West support whomever is your ideal choice with money and weapons? What if the new "democratic civilian government" was threatened with another coup?

What if it tried, for once to not support anybody? Just deal, openly and honestly, with whatever government people are content to live with?

[myata]

What proof do you actually have? No offence, but Israel has never set off a nuclear weapon. Are you merely assuming Israel has nuclear weapons? That's what the rest of the planet has to do (Amy Goodman aside)...no matter how likely it seems to be.

No, no proof, correct. And despite what all the planet has to do, nor its position in the heart of the conflict, nobody seem to be concerned. Or worred. One tiny bit.

Now compare this with all the fuss and hoopla unleashed around Iran. Where nukes do actually not exist. Wonder. Never ends.

[DogOnPorch]

What if it tried, for once to not support anybody? Just deal, openly and honestly, with whatever government people are content to live with?

OK...what if radicals take over? They'd be armed with nuclear weapons by default. Are you comfortable with that?

No, no proof, correct. And despite what all the planet has to do, nor its position in the heart of the conflict, nobody seem to be concerned. Or worred. One tiny bit.

Now compare this with all the fuss and hoopla unleashed around Iran. Where nukes do actually not exist. Wonder. Never ends.

Iran has the blueprints and engineering drawings for a nuclear weapon...given to them by radical elements in Pakistan. That's money in the bank. Try to not think in absolutes. Iran is quite capable of producing a nuclear weapon...once we stop with the fuss and hoopla. As mentioned in another thread, they already have ICBMs. Combined with Ahmedinnerjacket's various 'death to Israel' comments, I think we have a right to view Iran dubiously.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1646220,00.html

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1) Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.

2) Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury.

---President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad