Toronto School Board eyes "Afro-centric" school

[Smallc]

I heard this proposed by a representative of the Black community and who gave several reasons for this. First and formost was the treatment of Black students in the regular system. Would it not be better to have a good look at what is exactly going on in these schools. Who is making the Black students unwelcome and why?

You know what this is. It's racism and segregation, but this time in the opposite direction. It does not even deserve consideration and I hope that either the Harper or Mcguinty governments step in and stop this in its tracks.

[Michael Hardner]

There are situations where members of a certain group require special assistance. In some cases, citizens may decide that the best way to assist the group is through a government-administered program.

It's wrong to call every kind of specialized assistance 'discrimination'. I also don't agree with the practice of immediately assuming that the people advocating such programs are selfish, and doing these things for their own purposes.

For those of us who are against such programs, please explain what you think should be done to help distinct groups such as black children in the school system. If your answer is 'nothing', then you should probably debate from that standpoint - that no programs are useful.

[Smallc]

There are situations where members of a certain group require special assistance. In some cases, citizens may decide that the best way to assist the group is through a government-administered program.

It's wrong to call every kind of specialized assistance 'discrimination'. I also don't agree with the practice of immediately assuming that the people advocating such programs are selfish, and doing these things for their own purposes.

For those of us who are against such programs, please explain what you think should be done to help distinct groups such as black children in the school system. If your answer is 'nothing', then you should probably debate from that standpoint - that no programs are useful.

Programs are very useful useful. Educational assistants (of which I was one) as well as reading and math recovery do wonders. There is no need to segregate.

[White Doors]

I still get a laugh from a conversation I was involved with between an Egyptian fellow and this rather attractive half black gal...

The gal considered herself black, the egyptian considered her gorgeous (true) so he was looking for an affinty with her....so she talking and stuff and prefaces a statement by saying,

..."As an african canadian women...."

The Egyptian fellow finds his commion denominator.....

"YOU'RE AFRICAN!" he says....."Me too....."

I tell you that fell flatter than a pancake under a steam roller......She was adamant that no pale skined straight haired aquiline featured man could be african......

He was quite confused...'But I am African'....."I was born in Cairo...."

Really priceless, the kind of entertainment you can only find in a Toronto pub,....

Sounds like the African Canadian Woman knows precious little about Africa.

[M.Dancer]

Sounds like the African Canadian Woman knows precious little about Africa.

It was balanced by an Egyptian who knoew precious little about women.

[jbg]

My initial - and almost automatic - response to these proposals is one of offence. It seems to me like a beautiful example of state-sanctioned multiculturalism gone madly awry. Really, what's it to be? Integrated cultural mosaic or selective ethno-racial ghettoization?

However comes up with these crack-brained ideas is mad. Are they trying to sew the seeds of a country with a Baluchistan, Punjab, and Tribal Zone?

The last thing an educational system should do is to set people against each other. Schools' primary focus should be on education, and the secondary focus on teaching different people how to work together and/or coexist productively and peacefully.

[jbg]

That's a good question. What about a mixed marriage between a black skinned person and a white skinned person. If the offspring is white skinned, the parents could claim their child is of the black culture and should be allowed to attend that school intended for black students. In this day and age, anything is possible.

Good questions.

These fine points raise the issue of exactly how much hatred it is appropriate for a school system to promote? The correct answer is none.

[g_bambino]

For those of us who are against such programs, please explain what you think should be done to help distinct groups such as black children in the school system.

And there's exactly where the problem stems from: "distinct groups such as black children." You've already singled some kids out as special simply because of their common, yet vaguely defined, skin tone. Why? What is it about children who fall within a non-prescribed range of colours that makes it necessary to try to group them and segregate them from the rest of the student population?

I'll venture on a limb here and say that though we talk of the colour black, this isn't actually about skin colour at all. Rather, as people of a darker hue do not, in any way, all share the same culture, this is really about a certain North American - mostly originating from the US - ghetto culture created and adopted by a hazy-edged segment of a certain hazy-edged racial group purely because they are of said range of colours and happen to live in urban North America. In other words, to some people, one's culture is dictated purely by one's colour. Because the culture is attached to the colour, and fearful of being racist, nobody then criticises said culture; because of white guilt, or political correctness, or some toxic brew of the two, the feel-gooders merely decide to segregate the race instead, as though that wasn't in itself racist.

What should be done is this: 1) acknowledge that culture is not biologically entwined with race. 2) Tackle those ideologies of that ghetto culture that cause the kids problems with societal integration. 3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Edited November 10, 2007 by g_bambino

[jbg]

For those of us who are against such programs, please explain what you think should be done to help distinct groups such as black children in the school system. If your answer is 'nothing', then you should probably debate from that standpoint - that no programs are useful.

Programs should be there to help educationally disadvantaged. They should never be related to color. What should be done is this: 1) acknowledge that culture is not biologically entwined with race. 2) Tackle those ideologies of that ghetto culture that cause the kids problems with societal integration. 3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system.

I'm with G Bambino on this one. To the extent the school system should have any cultural role, it should be to teach people of differing backgrounds how to meld into the country they are in now, not how to perpetuate some so-called "black" culture (really a culture of failure more than a specifically "black" culture).

As I posted above, it is not good public policy to encourage perpetuation of distinctions and age-old hatreds.

[Moxie]

And there's exactly where the problem stems from: "distinct groups such as black children." You've already singled some kids out as special simply because of their common, yet vaguely defined, skin tone. Why? What is it about children who fall within a non-prescribed range of colours that makes it necessary to try to group them and segregate them from the rest of the student population?

I'll venture on a limb here and say that though we talk of the colour black, this isn't actually about skin colour at all. Rather, as people of a darker hue do not, in any way, all share the same culture, this is really about a certain North American - mostly originating from the US - ghetto culture created and adopted by a hazy-edged segment of a certain hazy-edged racial group purely because they are of said range of colours and happen to live in urban North America. In other words, to some people, one's culture is dictated purely by one's colour. Because the culture is attached to the colour, and fearful of being racist, nobody then criticises said culture; because of white guilt, or political correctness, or some toxic brew of the two, the feel-gooders merely decide to segregate the race instead, as though that wasn't in itself racist.

What should be done is this: 1) acknowledge that culture is not biologically entwined with race. 2) Tackle those ideologies of that ghetto culture that cause the kids problems with societal integration. 3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Bravo and well stated, it seems the black community has become dependant on the government to solve their problems. They need to become a community again, as you stated, their roots and culture should be tought at home not in the classroom.

P.S. What exactly is "Black Culture"? Anyone?

[jbg]

P.S. What exactly is "Black Culture"? Anyone?

Google "Louis Farrakhan" or "central park" in same google search as "wilding".

[jbg]

Bravo and well stated, it seems the black community has become dependant on the government to solve their problems. They need to become a community again, as you stated, their roots and culture should be tought at home not in the classroom.

P.S. What exactly is "Black Culture"? Anyone?

One of my e-friends is an Icelandic person who grew up in a heavily Icelandic part of Manitoba. He was telling me that when he entered Grade 1 he didn't speak English and his family certainly didn't. He struggled for a few years, but now speaks perfect, unaccented English, and from what I gather became quite accomplished in a variety of fields. This story, incidentally, is the story of immigrants to both of our countries for more than a century; they come, their first younger generation learns English, and joins Canadian and US society.

At least my Icelandic friend didn't grown up in an "Iceland-centric" school that taught multiculturalism with a rich mixture of anti-majority hate.

Edited November 11, 2007 by jbg

[RB]

I watched the brief news clip of the black parents argument. Parents sometimes get it wrong. This one of those times.

It is a wrong message to separate the diversity. The blacks fought hard for so much, only to return to segregation?. Just don’t sit well and set up for discrimination and failure. Reality check, I mean would the very top of good talented teachers line up to teach at a black school, and isn’t this the point of ghettoizing people.

First, a good parent would let a child have full access to the education system. Children need a strong foundation in general everything to grow bigger their little creative minds.

I am reminded one day I appeared at the school board and question some "silly" doodling alphabet homework for my 3 year old at that time. What a waste I thought then. But, children need exposure to all kinds of writing I am told, while they interact, mingle, socialize, they develop their own styles and personalities. This is just a very simple example.

If we keep our minds open for the kids and hope the land some good teachers who can disseminate the proper information in a learnt way, our children in this diverse group will become educated, and information will shape their lives and the way they think and who they become.

Families need to take part responsibilities for their children failures. From the broadcast on TV, I have listened to the black community speaking, (I could be wrong) but I can infer, this is a representation of probably new Canadians getting riled up in with the system. Further, I can say that these folks might not have been educated themselves in Canada, and probably limited with their exposure. 50% black kids not making it to grade 12 and turning to drugs, and gangs is serious. I agree the black kids are having troubles in school and issue need to be address, but a separate black school is probably not a road to travel.

Next even if we did proceed with trades’ school vision for the black communities, and they will become saturated with the bricklaying, pipe fitting etc. could they maintain a monopoly of the trades. I wish I could say "go for it folks" with some conviction.

I am a bit more comfortable to give children an option to learn about their black heritage, and icons in accessible programs as electives, after school programs and community programs.

[Michael Hardner]

But the families aren't doing it.

What should be done is this: 1) acknowledge that culture is not biologically entwined with race. 2) Tackle those ideologies of that ghetto culture that cause the kids problems with societal integration. 3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system.

That's my take on it, anyway.

It sounds like you want a segregated government program as well.

[g_bambino]

But the families aren't doing it.

I know.

It sounds like you want a segregated government program as well.

I didn't intend for it to sound that way.

[Moxie]

One of my e-friends is an Icelandic person who grew up in a heavily Icelandic part of Manitoba. He was telling me that when he entered Grade 1 he didn't speak English and his family certainly didn't. He struggled for a few years, but now speaks perfect, unaccented English, and from what I gather became quite accomplished in a variety of fields. This story, incidentally, is the story of immigrants to both of our countries for more than a century; they come, their first younger generation learns English, and joins Canadian and US society.

At least my Icelandic friend didn't grown up in an "Iceland-centric" school that taught multiculturalism with a rich mixture of anti-majority hate.

Great story jbg. My community is a farming community and our community is popular with Polish Immigrants. When I was in grade six several Polish Children became students, they spoke no English. It was the custom at the time to pair new immigrants students with a "Buddy". It was my job to work with her to teach her English and help her in her integration and studies. It was a wonderful program, I learned as much from her as I hope I tought her. The ironic thing was her name was the same as mine just spelled and enunciated differently. Kids helping kids, regardless of language and culture and race is the first step in aiding new immigrants. They could be a wonderful source of aiding new immigrants, children are tought how to be racists if we get them to accept all people while they are young the future is indeed a wonderful one.

Another great posts G Bambino, is your moniker G baby in English? The parents of the black students need to accept they are part of the problem, ultimately it's the parents responsibilty to ensure their children are being educated. If the system is failing the parents harbour part of the blame, weak parenting seems to be the latest trend in "Blame the Government or Institution" instead of excepting mea culpa.

[Michael Hardner]

3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system.

What group are you intending to target with that system ?

[Higgly]

I don't get it.

Faith based schools are a non-no (nous sommes bilingue, n'est-ce pas?) but race-based schools are OK?

Ska-rue that!

One system. Like it or leave it.

BUT....

It ain't about policy. It's about staffing.

The Ministry needs to get on board about how they select the staff for these schools and the OSSTF needs to link pinkies with them. There is a better way to deal with this than to start mouthing off about policy.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Higgly

[g_bambino]

What group are you intending to target with that system ?

What system?

[Higgly]

What system?

Why not quote the whole post?

[g_bambino]

Why not quote the whole post?

The whole post to which I was responding is quoted.

[jbg]

When I was in grade six several Polish Children became students, they spoke no English. It was the custom at the time to pair new immigrants students with a "Buddy". It was my job to work with her to teach her English and help her in her integration and studies. It was a wonderful program, I learned as much from her as I hope I tought her.

Why not "buddie" up an "Afro-centric" student with a majority one? Oh, I forgot, that would drain the political power of the hate mongers immigrant community leaders.

Thanks for acknowledging my posts, Moxie. It's nice since I now have started two threads that I consider to have no responses or minimal responses. Here they are:

1. One on immigration (link) (no responses); and
   
2. One on the origins of anti-Hebrew and anti-Western vandalism (link) (a few acerbic responses by the King of Wit)
   

It's almost not worth going to the trouble to present literate, thought out material if the posts that draw attention and responses all concern the supposition that income taxes = slavery to a figurehead queen, or about what Mulroney and Harper discussed walking around a pleasant lakeside on a hot day at Harrington.

[jbg]

Why not quote the whole post?

Part of the House Rules (link) state:

TRIM YOUR REPLIES

When replying to a post, quote only what is needed for context. No one is interested in reading the entire post again! Quoting the entire post wastes expensive bandwidth and is just plain annoying. After hitting the quote buttom, please remove those portions of the post that are unrelated to your response.

'Nuff said?

[Moxie]

Why not "buddie" up an "Afro-centric" student with a majority one? Oh, I forgot, that would drain the political power of the hate mongers immigrant community leaders.

Thanks for acknowledging my posts, Moxie. It's nice since I now have started two threads that I consider to have no responses or minimal responses. Here they are:

1. One on immigration (link) (no responses); and
   
2. One on the origins of anti-Hebrew and anti-Western vandalism (link) (a few acerbic responses by the King of Wit)
   

It's almost not worth going to the trouble to present literate, thought out material if the posts that draw attention and responses all concern the supposition that income taxes = slavery to a figurehead queen, or about what Mulroney and Harper discussed walking around a pleasant lakeside on a hot day at Harrington.

I enjoy your post jbp. I'll check out the links you provided also.

Society needs to forget skin color, we are all equal. This issue isn't about "Whites" subjugating blacks it's a few blacks demanding segregation and apartied. How will these children advance academically by segregation? It sounds like parents blaming those who aren't black for their childrens failures, using the race card isn't going to work anymore. Canadians are very tolerant to a point, push us to far we do come out swinging.

[jefferiah]

MLK fought to end segregation, now some people want it back.

Edited November 12, 2007 by jefferiah