Who Restarted the Cold War?

[kuzadd]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18590.htm

Remember when Bush said something like he looked at Putin and saw his soul?

Oh wait he said

I looked into his soul and decided this is the guy I can work with.

well working with Putin has not been Bush's raison d'etre.

What happened in 1991 and 1992?

Well, Russia let the Berlin Wall be torn down and its satellite states be voted or thrown out of power across Eastern Europe. Russia agreed to pull the Red Army all the way back inside its border. Russia agreed to let the Soviet Union dissolve into 15 nations. The Communist Party agreed to share power and let itself be voted out. Russia embraced freedom and American-style capitalism, and invited Americans in to show them how it was done.

Russia did not use its veto in the Security Council to block the U.S. war to drive Saddam Hussein, an ally, out of Kuwait. When 9-11 struck, Putin gave his blessing to U.S. troops using former republics as bases for the U.S. invasion.

What was Moscow's reward for its pro-America policy?

The United States began moving NATO into Eastern Europe and then into former Soviet republics. Six ex-Warsaw Pact nations are now NATO allies, as are three ex-republics of the Soviet Union. NATO expansionists have not given up on bringing Ukraine, united to Russia for centuries, or Georgia, Stalin's birthplace, into NATO.

In 1999, the United States bombed Serbia, which has long looked to Mother Russia for protection, for 78 days, though the Serbs' sole crime was to fight to hold their cradle province of Kosovo, as President Lincoln fought to hold onto the American South. Now America is supporting the severing of Kosovo from Serbia and creation of a new Islamic state in the Balkans, over Moscow's protest.

While Moscow removed its military bases from Cuba and all over the Third World, we have sought permanent military bases in Russia's backyard of Central Asia.

We dissolved the Nixon-Brezhnev ABM treaty and announced we would put a missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic.

Under presidents Clinton and Bush, the United States financed a pipeline for Caspian Sea oil to transit Azerbaijan and Georgia to the Black Sea and Turkey, cutting Russia out of the action.

With the end of the Cold War, the KGB was abolished and the Comintern disappeared. But the National Endowment for Democracy, Freedom House and other Cold War agencies, funded with tens of millions in tax-exempt and tax dollars, engineered the ouster of pro-Russian regimes in Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia, and sought the ouster of the regime in Minsk.

At the Cold War's end, the United States was given one of the great opportunities of history: to embrace Russia, largest nation on earth, as partner, friend, ally. Our mutual interests meshed almost perfectly. There was no ideological, territorial, historic or economic quarrel between us, once communist ideology was interred.

We blew it.

He doesn't even mention the oh so cozy Yeltsin years.

I understand somewhere posted on the Rand site, is a plan , a US plan for the balkanization of Russia. Heard this in an interview.

It would not surprise me in the least, divide and conquer.

The cold war was restarted by one country and that was the US.

[Topaz]

I agree with you and just like Russia, the US may see itself fall! You can't blame Putin reacting to the missiles that Bush wants in Europe. The sooner Bush is out of office, the world will be a better place but I think he'll try to go into Iran, both he and Cheney want this so bad and I hope the Congress can stop him from doing so.

[myata]

I can't be amazed enough at the unabated boldness of this administration's attitude: we say that it won't be aimed at you and you have to believe us on our word. Forget all you learned before (nukes, missiles, etc) and just trust us. Such a solid foundation for a foreign policyand instills a lot of trust in your partners!

[bush_cheney2004]

I can't be amazed enough at the unabated boldness of this administration's attitude: we say that it won't be aimed at you and you have to believe us on our word. Forget all you learned before (nukes, missiles, etc) and just trust us. Such a solid foundation for a foreign policyand instills a lot of trust in your partners!

Trust is for suckers.....Reagan taught us that. The US helped to collapse Russia's ruble long before Bush came along, as did the reserach into missile "defense" programs, which serves nicely as another bargaining chip ina classic good cop - bad cop strategy.

BTW, RBMs (missiles) aren't "aimed" at anything until the guidance units are spun up and loaded with target package data. This is not 1962.

[Higgly]

The days of US hegemony are coming to a close. Putin (admittedly a undemocratic nasty bastard who is willig to drug his citizens with cheap vodka) is now finding leverage by sticking his crowbar into the fulcrums that Bush has so stupidly provided. China is now busy going step by step through "How To Become a Superpower For Dummies" manual : get nukes, bolster the economy, build up missle capability, launch a space program, host the Olympics.

The US had a brief window of opportunity in which to show leadership, and it is not looking good.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Higgly

[kuzadd]

Putin (admittedly a undemocratic nasty bastard who is willig to drug his citizens with cheap vodka) i

vodka and russians go way back before Putin, if I can recall Yeltsin, was a stinkin' drunk, but anyway.......

The simple facts are from Serbia to Afghanistan and on now, to the "independence movement"

of Kosovo, the "missile defence" in Russia's back-yard, the US has been kicking up the cold war, several notches.

Russia had been complying, but apparently enough is enough.

[myata]

Agreed. While showing some undemocratic tendencies, Russia is by far not the worst of players this world has to offer. Continuosly undermining its influence on virtually every occasion is not the way to develop a lasting partnership. Which, given the direction the world is heading into, maybe more in its long term interests than a few quick points here and there.

[Argus]

Agreed. While showing some undemocratic tendencies,

Showing some undemocratic tendencies? Well, I guess jailing and murdering your political opponents and eliminating all vestiges of a free press might be termed "some undemocratic tendencies" - by people who don't care much about democracy.

I look at this idiotic thread, populated by bitter yankee haters and I see fools yearning for a resurgence of the Soviet Union because they all preferred it to the United States. Regardless of what level of brutality and mass murder the Communists engaged in, western lefties still admired them and despised the Americans.

Putin is a murdering, thieving demagogue who is leading the world's most despotic kleptocracy, and using the same tactics as Hitler did to gain popularity - blaming other people for all that ails the nation. While you lefties snivel about Guantanamo Bay you utterly ignore the mass murder and torture the Russians have engaged in in Chechnya, and the preposterous justification Putin used to restart that war and murder so many people.

There are still "useful idiots" in the West, and none of you has gotten any brighter since the Soviet Union faded away.

[Argus]

vodka and russians go way back before Putin, if I can recall Yeltsin, was a stinkin' drunk, but anyway.......

The simple facts are from Serbia to Afghanistan and on now, to the "independence movement"

of Kosovo, the "missile defence" in Russia's back-yard, the US has been kicking up the cold war, several notches.

Russia had been complying, but apparently enough is enough.

What utter bullshit. The US and Europe have been bending over backwards to try not to provoke the Russians. But Putin needs a fight to justify his stepped up anti-democratic efforts and military build-up. Like Hitler, Putin is seeking "enemies" to focus the herd's anger on so they will support him in whatever he does. Having his security people blow up a few apartment buildings in Moscow gave him an excuse to start a new war in Chechnya, but that's over now, and he needs another enemy. That's why he's been doing his best to provoke the west, making wild accusations, and cozying up to the world's other despots. Meanwhile he's using oil and gas to blackmail and bully neighboring countries into submission.

None of that, of course, would bother you. Your bitterness and hatred of the Americans is such you would willingly embrace a new Soviet Union, no matter how murderous.

[kuzadd]

Meanwhile he's using oil and gas to blackmail and bully neighboring countries into submission.

Hmmm, sounds EXACTLY like what the US is doing.

Or when all else fails there is always the NED.

Or maybe it is the NED first, then using oil and gas for bullying and blackmail??

[Sulaco]

Hmmm, sounds EXACTLY like what the US is doing.

Or when all else fails there is always the NED.

Or maybe it is the NED first, then using oil and gas for bullying and blackmail??

So in what sense is the US using oil and gas to bully others? Please expound. I mean really - do expound.

The NED - it funds organizations. It doesn't send weapons, it doesn't send tunnel building expertise. it does not teach how to create crude nuclear weapons. It doesn not assassinate. It does not silence. In short - what Argus said.

[kuzadd]

So in what sense is the US using oil and gas to bully others? Please expound. I mean really - do expound.

Iraq, Iran

Venezuela

Saudi Arabia

Oil and gas always plays a role strategically speaking, and alot of people are getting killed/have been killed, will be killed because of it. Oil and gas can be used so many way.

agree to supply

cut off supplies

over throw to ensure supplies

Countries can go be divided for oilpipelines

let us count the ways there are to bully.

the NED is used for destabilization, through "other" means.

But destabilization is still destabilization.

It doesn't send weapons, it doesn't send tunnel building expertise. it does not teach how to create crude nuclear weapons. It doesn not assassinate. It does not silence.

You are not seriously claiming the US has not done each and every one of those things are you??

On many, many occasions.

Anyway, the points made are that the US has restarted the cold-war and that seems accurate, based on what we know, not on rhetoric.

Edited October 24, 2007 by kuzadd

[bush_cheney2004]

Oil? Gas? Cold War?

Hmmm....seems that Georgia has recent firsthand experience with Comrade Putin:

Georgia's president has accused Moscow of serious acts of "sabotage" after gas blasts on Russian pipelines cut off supplies to Georgia and Armenia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4637034.stm

[marcinmoka]

Who Restarted the Cold War?, not Putin, despite the western rhetoric

No one did. But some fantasies die hard. And uncontrollable urges to blame the U.S on everything from climate change to not having your homework done apparently die harder.

Tension ≠ War (cold or hot).

[myata]

Sure. So, if tomorrow Russia negitiates to install MD shields in Cuba and Venecuela, to protect itself from intercontinental attacks from Chechen terrorists hiding in the jungles of Amazon, they 'll be met with complete and absolute understanding from US administrations? Like last time?

[geoffrey]

Sure. So, if tomorrow Russia negitiates to install MD shields in Cuba and Venecuela, to protect itself from intercontinental attacks from Chechen terrorists hiding in the jungles of Amazon, they 'll be met with complete and absolute understanding from US administrations? Like last time?

Only if there is actually Chechan rebels in the Amazon.

[myata]

Only if there is actually Chechan rebels in the Amazon.

Why? Are you saying that such an attack is any less likely than missile strike from Iran on Europe and US the american shield (as claimed) is intended to protect from?

[Argus]

Hmmm, sounds EXACTLY like what the US is doing.

It sounds NOTHING like the what the US is doing. Or have you forgotten the Russians cutting off the gas supply for half of Europe last winter?

Or when all else fails there is always the NED.

Or maybe it is the NED first, then using oil and gas for bullying and blackmail??

I don't know what NED is. Most likely some dumbass leftie conspiracy whine. But so far as I know the US hasn't attempted to poison any foreign leaders recently, as the Russians did to the Ukrainian President, nor has it sent spies to nuke a defector in another country.

[Argus]

Anyway, the points made are that the US has restarted the cold-war and that seems accurate, based on what we know, not on rhetoric.

No, it sounds accurate to idiots.

[Argus]

Sure. So, if tomorrow Russia negitiates to install MD shields in Cuba and Venecuela, to protect itself from intercontinental attacks from Chechen terrorists hiding in the jungles of Amazon, they 'll be met with complete and absolute understanding from US administrations? Like last time?

You think the Soviets - I mean the Russians - don't have every possible electronic detection system in Cuba they could possibly install?

The US missile shield is no danger to the Russians, and everyone other than radical leftist nutbars agrees on that. It's simply a pretext for Putin to continue his bullying. He wants all the former east bloc countries in Russia's orbit, and does not want them cozying up to the West.

[Argus]

Why? Are you saying that such an attack is any less likely than missile strike from Iran on Europe and US the american shield (as claimed) is intended to protect from?

Uh yeah.

And - news flash - there weren't any Chechin terrorists until Putin blew up some Moscow apartments and then proceeded to place heavy artillery rim to rim outside every Chechin city and blow the crap out of them.

Not that you lefties ever found time to complain about that in your incessant, hysterical protests about some terrorists being held in Guantanamo.

[buffycat]

Ahh yes, the usual name calling by the same old offenders... *sigh* some things never change around here.

Sorry, Argus but Putin can't hold a candle to the destruction that the US under the Bush regime has wrought. Considering the bloody mess Putin inherited I think he's done VERY well indeed. I only wish our own government had the same sense of nationalism for Canada - instead we just sell ourselves out to the lowest bidder it seems.

WRT poisoning - got any proof of your allegations? Cuz as far as I know the jury is still out on both the Yushenko (sp) and the other poisoning... IOW it is uncertain as to who actually did it.

Carry on...

(put's hard hat on awaiting the personal insults and attacks)

[marcinmoka]

To compound the stupidity of this entire post, are pig headed claims such as:

What was Moscow's reward for its pro-America policy?

The United States began moving NATO into Eastern Europe and then into former Soviet republics.

Assertions that the central european nations are just pawns, little more than token offerings to the powers that be.

God (non-denominational for you Kuzadd, or else you would be claiming this phrase to be evidence of some massive Christian/Crusader conspiracy) forbid these nations actively sought to join NATO after having endured decades of Soviet tyranny.

So much for preaching the right of self determination of smaller nations, or is it only if they oppose western interests.

Or my absolute favourite:

With the end of the Cold War, the KGB was abolished

In name, albeit this time around, the FSB is far more powerful than the KGB could've ever dreamed.

*Though I often enjoy American Conservative, they definitely adopt a Paleo-Conservative view in the strictest sense, one which all too often focuses strictly on domestic issues and shuns the complexities of foreign relations. Not that this article is wrong on every account, it just ignores the fact that Russia cannot be viewed nor analyzed via the same means as the U.S*

Edited October 26, 2007 by marcinmoka

[MMT]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18590.htm

Remember when Bush said something like he looked at Putin and saw his soul?

Oh wait he said

well working with Putin has not been Bush's raison d'etre.

He doesn't even mention the oh so cozy Yeltsin years.

I understand somewhere posted on the Rand site, is a plan , a US plan for the balkanization of Russia. Heard this in an interview.

It would not surprise me in the least, divide and conquer.

The cold war was restarted by one country and that was the US.

Allright, speaking of balkanization of Russia, what would you say about this material - "Is Z.Brzezinski really a Godfather of New Russian Nationalists?" http://www.vdesyatku.com/NewRusianNationalists.html

It links Dr.Brzezinski strategy of "Russian Empire" destruction with so called "new Russian nationalists" who consider that Russia's collapse would be a blessing for Russian people. Any thought?

[MMT]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18590.htm

Remember when Bush said something like he looked at Putin and saw his soul?

Oh wait he said

well working with Putin has not been Bush's raison d'etre.

He doesn't even mention the oh so cozy Yeltsin years.

I understand somewhere posted on the Rand site, is a plan , a US plan for the balkanization of Russia. Heard this in an interview.

It would not surprise me in the least, divide and conquer.

The cold war was restarted by one country and that was the US.

Allright, speaking of balkanization of Russia, what would you say about this material - "Is Z.Brzezinski really a Godfather of New Russian Nationalists?" http://www.vdesyatku.com/NewRusianNationalists.html

It links Dr.Brzezinski strategy of "Russian Empire" destruction with so called "new Russian nationalists" who consider that Russia's collapse would be a blessing for Russian people. Any thought?