Dumbledore's Gay

[jazzer]

Morality never "advances". It either exists or doesn't, and there is no connection between the passage of time and an "advance" in morality.

So there wasn't an advancement in morality from the old testament to the new one? Not sure I agree with you on that one.

[August1991]

If you look at the time in which Christianity emerged, the world was full of sin. Ask anyone who studies ancient Rome what kind of a culture they had; they were hedonistic and barbaric, their polytheistic religion involved the slaghter of animals, prayer to demons, and other disgusting practices; women had virtually no rights, and could be nothing more than wives or whores; slavery--most of whom were non-Romans--was the norm. Christianity actually freed people from this. Let's not forget that the Roman put Christians to death, they murdered them and other people for sport.

Those terrible Romans, such heathens.

And the horrific (Christian) slaughters of the past century? Treblinka and Dachau, for example.

Kengs, please drop the Christianity-civilizing-force in society angle. Please try, as an intelligent being, to see another view of morality. Christianity is sometimes a force of good, but it's not the single answer.

---

Kengs333, some people are left-handed, about 10% of the population. They're different. Long ago Christ recognized this fact about humans and spread His message with that idea.

Edited October 26, 2007 by August1991

[kengs333]

So there wasn't an advancement in morality from the old testament to the new one? Not sure I agree with you on that one.

No. That's why God sent Jesus.

[kengs333]

Those terrible Romans, such heathens.

Yes, they were.

And the horrific (Christian) slaughters of the past century? Treblinka and Dachau, for example.

Spare me. The Nazis were not Christian--whether they claimed to be or not. If you look at the ideological roots of Nazism--Social Darwinism, Nietzschian philosophy ("God is Dead"), etc.--there's no way that they were Christians.

[August1991]

No. That's why God sent Jesus.

God sent his Son to recognize all of us as different.

Must a person be right-handed to believe in Jesus Christ? Are left-handed people forbidden from going to Heaven? Must they learn to write with their right hand?

You can admit whom you want in your own house. A Church is God's house - and all can enter. That is the message of His Son.

Edited October 26, 2007 by August1991

[kengs333]

I don't know what bible you're using but the quote in question is in every bible I have. Easy to dismiss something that troubles or that contradicts your beliefs. How about a cite or two to back up your scholar's claim.

"51Und es war ein Jüngling, der folgte ihm nach, der war mit Leinwand bekleidet auf der bloßen Haut; und die Jünglinge griffen ihn.

52Er aber ließ die Leinwand fahren und floh bloß von ihnen."

Where is it, I don't see it?

[noahbody]

You can admit who you want in your own house. A Church is God's house - and all can enter.

Why does God allow priests to molest alter boys in his own house?

[kengs333]

God sent his Son to recognize all of us as different.

Must a person be right-handed to believe in Jesus Christ? Are left-handed people forbidden from going to Heaven? Must they learn to write with their right hand?

You can admit who you want in your own house. A Church is God's house - and all can enter. That is the message of His Son.

This is complete gibberish.

[kengs333]

Why does God allow priests to molest alter boys in his own house?

People sin on their own accord.

[August1991]

This is complete gibberish.

Gibberish?

I sent my only begotten Son that whosever believes in Me shall not perish but will have everlasting life...

My Father's house has many mansions and I go to prepare a place for thee...

----

Kengs, are you a Christian? Or are you a dilettante?

Edited October 26, 2007 by August1991

[kengs333]

Gibberish?

I sent my only begotten Son that whosever believes in Me shall not perish but will have everlasting life...

My House has many mansions and I go to prepare a place for thee...

----

Kengs, are you a Christian? Or are you a dilettante?

Yeah, it was complete gibberish.

[August1991]

Yeah, it was complete gibberish.

Gibberish? I pray for you and your confusion about God's Word.

And I pray for the souls of Left-Handed people too.

As Christ said (and true Christians know) His Father's house has many mansions - enough for all, the right-handed and left-handed.

But to get there, one must believe in the word of Christ, and His Father.

Edited October 26, 2007 by August1991

[jefferiah]

I don't know what bible you're using but the quote in question is in every bible I have. Easy to dismiss something that troubles or that contradicts your beliefs. How about a cite or two to back up your scholar's claim.

There is a death penalty in Leviticus for a lot of things.

Jesus did not stone allow the stoning of the adulteress, yet the law never passed away---the law says it is a sin to commit adultery. Law refers to the moral.

[noahbody]

People sin on their own accord.

And this all powerful God just sits back while a child is molested? Or does he believe pedophilia is natural and acceptable?

[GostHacked]

Why does God allow priests to molest alter boys in his own house?

If this god exists, then the priest will surley suffer for it in Hell. If this god does not exist, maybe that is the reason he has not done anything about it yet. Or this gos is lazy and has delegated it to child molesting priests.

Keng333

This is complete gibberish.

Why is it jiberish? If all are not welcome in God's house, how can one repent their sins if they are not even allowed to have a chance to repent their sins? Or was the other part of his post jibberish?

It seems like there is more reports of religious leaders molesting children than ordinary people.

[Rue]

Oh nonsense. Pedophiles almost always pick one gender, and very few deviate (excuse the pun). Approximately 1/3 of male pedophiles pick boys. I don't have time to dig up the stat, but it's readily available on the net. Yet only 2-3% of males are homos.

Absolute and utter bullshit and I call you out on it.. Produce your documentation to prove the above. Its absolute fabrication.

[Rue]

I am going to respond directly to you Keng and your comments which I place in quotes;

"Where did I say gays were Nazis?"

"QUOTE(kengs333 @ Oct 24 2007, 05:19 PM)

What does the fact that almost every kid said "so what?" mean--it means that they've been brainwashed or intimidated into believing that homosexuality is normal. And that's how it works. Always go after the kids. That's what the Nazis did to perfection, this is no different. If you were in Berlin in 1938 and you would have asked children what they thought of Hitler, they all would have said he was a great man. Why? Because they were brainwashed to believe this."

You also stated earlier;

"The commonalities in the rise of Nazism and the rise of the "gay rights" movement are quite startling."

So now I will spell it out for you in clear terms. When you use the above terms of reference you equate gays to Nazis pure and simple and no trying to deny what you said. Its there for everyone to read and the fact that you now try to couch it and pretend it is something different then what you intended shows one thing to me-you are either playing me for the fool or are engaging in denial. Which one is it Keng?

"I'm suggesting that there are similarities in way that their respective ideologies crept into the psyche of their respective societies."

The above words may be couched Keng but they equate what gays are and what Nazis are as engaging in the same behaviour and that Sir is what you have been called out on and I state again, it is unacceptable and utterly nonsensical for to follow such reasoning equates what gays are to society what Nazis once were. Its absolutely reprehensible and hateful because you know you are equating the right for gay people to exist and be treated with dignity and respect as being Nazi like.

"I'm not sure they really were all that thorough in rounding up gays; labelling someone gay was a convenient way of finding an excuse to send them to the concentration camps--or to murder them outright. "

That is precisely the problem with you Keng. You make statements clearly indicating you do not know the subject matter you profess. Perhaps instead of saying you are not really sure, then none-the-less making comments that assume what happened, you make an effort to find out what the Nazis did to gays because it is precisely because you do not read history, you repeat it in such an ignorant and odious manner to suggest the victims of Nazism are Nazis.

I am glad I have this opportunity to show gentiles why for me the holocaust is so important, not just because of what it did to my people. but because of what it did to others such as Gays, Romanoes, Jehova's Witnesses, certain Christians both Catholic and Lutheran, socialists, communists, 7th Day Advenists and the disabled to name a few. I will not let this man take the name of the holocaust and its victims in vain and this is where my wrath is coming from.

"Do you remember the night of the long knives? Truth be told, it sounds as though there was a great deal of sexual deviance among the high ranking Nazis--not that they were evil or sinful as it was."

This Sir typifies why I must ask just what happened to you that your cognitive process works this way. Does this mean all hetero-sexuals are evil because of the crimes committed by hetero-sexuals? What kind of reasoning is this other then you slurring innocent people because you think you can blame them morally for the actions of other humans?

"Well, just because a group of people was persecuted and victimized, doesn't mean that they themselves can't turn around and act the same way when they have control of a society."

Again your comments are quite something. You now suggest that gays have turned around and acted the same way as Nazis. You again repeat the slur, but then go on to suggest they are engaged in a conspiracy to control society. You have yet to provide one shred of objective evidence to indicate just how gays are engaging in their conspiracy and I would suggest Sir the reason for that is because this simply has been fabricated by you, its you projecting subjective feelings outwords-your perception of gay conspiracy comes from within you and perhaps Sir it is time you ask why.

"Israel is a perfect example of this, wouldn't you agree? "

You now use holocaust inversion not just for gays but for Israelis and that Sir I again repeat is odious and nonsensical. Your attempt to turn victims into victimizers and equivalate Israelis to Nazis is as repulsive as your repeated exercise to do that with gays.

" Or what about all of those Jews who went along with the Soviets?"

So now we switch from homophobia to anti-semitism. Well you are consistent. The group you hate may change, but you engage in the exact same negative generalizations to assign moral culpability to all Jews for the actions presumably of the Soviet Communist Party and Joseph Stalin. So Jews are now not just Nazis but rotten commmies to.

Again Keng your appreciation of history shows someone who engages in stereotypes. The vast majority of Communists were not Jewish. In fact what you are doing is suggesting if someone was of Jewish ancestry and was a member of the Soviet Communist party. then all Jews can be smeered and labelled as victimizers of non communists because of this. What absolute nonsense and absolute nonsense for two reasons; i-for a Jew to be a communist they would have to renounce being a Jew; ii-the Soviet communist system since its inception carried out numerous anti-semitic purges accusing Jews of being Zionists and rounding them up and sending them to concentration camps to be beaten. tortured and starved to death. Russian Jews left the Soviet Union precisely for that reason and no Sir they did not all go to Israel, many went to Canada, the U.S. and Western Europe as well.

"Didn't the Soviets murder something like 30 million people? "

And so using your reason because the Soviets did this, Jews are victimizers. Do you think before you write. 20 million Ukrainians starved because of Stalin's deliberate decision to starve Ukrainian peasants to death. In that same country the Ukrainians also sided with the Nazis in World War Two and Jews in the Ukraine were exterminated en masse. Its a difficult history for Ukrainian Jews who certainly do not identify with the anti-semite and mass murderer Joseph Stalin and what he did to the Ukrainians, but also have memories of what Ukrainian Nazi sympathizers did to them. Your lack of sensitivity and ignorance of the situation of course is of no surprise given how you talk of gays.

"There's nothing hateful in anything that I've written--you're just twisting things because I don't see things your way."

No sir I twist nothing. I stick the mirror right back in your face. There is no twisting going on, it is a direct repetition of your words and the consequences of the pain your ignorance creates.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Rue

[g_bambino]

People who piece together verses from the Bible like you just did are a dime a dozen; I've never been in a discussion about Christianity where it doesn't happen.

Quite possibly so; mostly, I imagine, because the doctrines of Christianity rely heavily on the Bible; or, really, on interpretation thereof. Hence, I too often hear preachers piecing together verses from the Bible to teach us all a lesson. Strange how you find it works okay one way, but not the other.

If you look at the time in which Christianity emerged, the world was full of sin. Ask anyone who studies ancient Rome what kind of a culture they had; they were hedonistic and barbaric, their polytheistic religion involved the slaghter of animals, prayer to demons, and other disgusting practices; women had virtually no rights, and could be nothing more than wives or whores; slavery--most of whom were non-Romans--was the norm. Christianity actually freed people from this. Let's not forget that the Roman put Christians to death, they murdered them and other people for sport.

Sin by Christianity's standards, not the Romans'.

Yet, Christianity's standards can be strangely inconsistent in their application; have you ever seen how kosher meat is properly prepared? That looks very close to a ritualistic slaughter of animals, to me. Do you realise that Jews do not worship Jesus as the son of God, but see him merely a prophet (as the Muslims do)? Still, the Jewish religion is embraced by many Christians simply because they share the same holy land (though it's relevance to Muslims is dismissed) and the same Part I of the Bible. Further along the same lines, Christ's guidance led the heathens out of the sinful darkness of the Ancient World (strangely, right into the Dark Ages), yet the Christian Europeans later themselves divided people into a series of categories under the benchmark of The White Christian Male, either essentially enslaving them, or literally doing so. A tad bit contradictory, n'est pas?

Morality never "advances". It either exists or doesn't, and there is no connection between the passage of time and an "advance" in morality. Getting back to a point where sexual deviance becomes normalized again is not progressive, it's regressive. There is never anything progressive about people who prefer to be governed by base instinct.

You're right in a lot of what you say there, but swerve completely off the mark in the assumption that "moral" is an unalterable absolute in a binary relationship with what is eternally immoral. Certainly, morality is a concept that always exists wherever humans collect into a society, but it is proven to never be static. As our minds in societal congregation guide us to a different view of certain aspects of ourselves, then our structure that sets up which of those aspects is "right" and which of them is "wrong" comparatively alters. As civilized people (or, at least, we like to consider ourselves that way) we tend to judge right and wrong on what causes others pain and what does not - which is a legacy of our society's Christian roots, no doubt. So, allowing for the abuse of anyone, children or otherwise, would be seen as regressive. But, if the human behaviour actually doesn't harm anyone, whether within new social rules or not, then how is it in any way a move backwards?

Edited October 26, 2007 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

"QUOTE(kengs333 @ Oct 24 2007, 05:19 PM)

What does the fact that almost every kid said "so what?" mean--it means that they've been brainwashed or intimidated into believing that homosexuality is normal. And that's how it works. Always go after the kids. That's what the Nazis did to perfection, this is no different. If you were in Berlin in 1938 and you would have asked children what they thought of Hitler, they all would have said he was a great man. Why? Because they were brainwashed to believe this."

"The commonalities in the rise of Nazism and the rise of the "gay rights" movement are quite startling."

So now I will spell it out for you in clear terms. When you use the above terms of reference you equate gays to Nazis pure and simple and no trying to deny what you said.

I suppose kengs can compare The Gay Movement to Nazis if he wishes. Then again, that means we're free enough to compare Nazis to Christians. They're all movements driven by ideology.

Of course, most of us would have the sense to realise that's where the similarities end (though I wonder, sometimes, about the Evangelicals in the US, and what they'd do if given access to too much power...)

[Rue]

There's nothing hateful in anything that I've written--you're just twisting things because I don't see things your way.

No I am not finished with you. You engaged in anti-semitic babble and I addressed that issue but I now come back to your attack on gays which you say is not hateful.

I will specifically delineate your hateful comments and explain why they are hateful since you engage in denial as to the consequences of your words;

"Pedophelia is a celebrated aspect of male gay culture."

The above comment suggests the male gay community advocates and celebrates the sexual molestation of children and so not only is it hateful but it is deliberately stated because you know it smeers innocent male gay men. You smeer their good name and suggest they are engaging in celebration of molesting children and that Sir is as odious as it gets.

Interestingly Sir you stated and I quote;

"never said homosexuality is pedophelia--" then in the exact same passage go on to state and I quote; "Moreover, man-boy love is a celebrated aspect of male gay culture. "

You want to deny this as well? Your words Sir speak for themselves. They are not being twisted. They show you contradict yourself precisely because you are expressing a confusion from within you. People who are not confused don't deny then repeat in the same sentence, and quite frankly Sir your communication is almost identical to the writing style of Kapitan. May I ask are you one and the same person because not long ago he also came on this forum and stated homo-sexuals were pedophiles as you do and then denied it but kept repeating it so I ask are you Kapitan?

Here are some more hateful words directly written by you...

"So men who engaged in homosexual acts also readily engaged in pedophelia, as well."

You Sir repeated on at least 7 references I found that pedophiles are homo-sexuals.

Your comment is deliberate and is intended to blur the line to suggest gays and pedophiles are the same and you made that clear when you claimed the male gay community celebrates pedophilia.

I could Sir point out to you that according to the DSM V Psychiatric Manual, the American and Canadian Medical, Psychological and Psychiatric Associations and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons as well as every Western medical association that pedophilia is not homo-sexual behaviour and that homo-sexuality is not classified as either an illness or deviation or abonormality but then we aren't engaged in truth Sir are we-what we are engaged in is you stating your personal hatred for gays by suggesting since you do not like the idea they have sex with one another and so since you find it unacceptable then it must be sick.

Pedophilia is classified as sex by an adult with EITHER a boy or a girl. If you tried to read what you profess about you would understand when a pedophilia engages in sex he does not do so because the child is a boy or girl, he does so because the child has no sexual characteristics, in fact whether they are a boy or a girl, they are physically underdeveloped and therefore look the same.

There are ample criminal and medical case statistics to indicate over 85% of pedophiles in fact when they do have adult sex, do so with someone of the opposite sex and that 90% or more of pedophiles are men and the reason they pick out a child is not because they are a boy or a girl but because of access and opportunity. Its not because the child is a boy or a girl they molest them-it is Sir because they are available.

Now I am telling you-I have had to work and get in the minds of pedophiles as a family mediator and defender of children. I know what makes them tick, how they operate. You do not know what you talk about. In fact Sir, homo-sexual adults precisely because they are under the gun for being gay in the first place, are far more careful when they are with children then straight people. That Sir is something you would know if you took the time to understand that gay men as children are molested no different then straight men and they did not become gay because they were molested nor were they molested because they are gay. Your reasoning Sir suggests among other things that not only is pedophilia and homo-sexual behaviour the same but that necessarily a gay person molested by a pedophile since they are gay have engaged in homo-sexual sex. What absolute nonsense.

Homo-sexual or hetero-sexual sex is with adults, i.e., people fully formed sexually and its based on consent and mutual capacity.

This Sir brings me to the next point. Why Sir do you think you find it so necessary to call gays immoral?

Well let's look at your words shall we?

"To simply dismiss someone's homosexuality as "that's just the way they are" is disingenuous. You're suggesting that people can't change how they think, their attitudes, how they behave; people should simply go with how they feel. This is exact reason why some much is wrong with our society."

Read your own words. They are the words of a man who says people should repress their sexual feelings and their true feelings because if they don't its wrong. So are you talking about yourself Sir? Is this what you do? Is this why you lash out at gays because you feel since you have to repress your trye feelings they should to? Am I twisting your words Sir? Just what then did you mean by saying society is wrong if people do not repress their true sexual feelings? Are you saying you repress your true feelings so others should to?

Are you saying it is mentally healthy to repress who one is?

I ask you Sir because you seem terrified of the consequence of people who will not repress their true sex feelings-to the point where you present unsubstantiated social conspiracy theories that gays are going around brainwashing people into thinking they are normal and that what they do causes them to have sex with children.

Do you think that is what happens when gays do not repress their feelings-brainwashing and child molestation? Or Sir do you think if you don't repress yourself you might do something unacceptable? Which is it?

I ask Sir because as I said before when you impugn the motives of gays, you also open yourself to the same exercise-if you can question then assign motive to gays can they not do the same with you? Can they also not say you engage in Nazi tactics, try brain-wash people, and in fact may simply hate your own inner feelings that you repress.

Tell me Sir, in your alleged religion, do you think Jesus preached that loving one's fellow man means hating them like you do? I note you claim to be Christian but when it comes to trying to justify hating gays, you fall back on the Old Testament? Why? Are you not the same person who stated to me that Jews are victimizers just like Nazis, gays and Soviet communists? Why would you quote from their Bible?

Could it be Sir there is no passage in the New Testament that condones hating anyone?

Could it also be Sir that you quote a Bible written during a time and place by men reflecting their biases of that day and their preoccupation that if Jews did not procreate they would be assimilated and cease to exist?

Tell me Sir, when would you have us engage in the stonings?

I would suggest Keng you understand that your comments are not only hateful but simply ypur subjective feelings and Sir they evidence you simply make things up.

Let me give you one last example;

"First of all, the evidence for "homosexuality" among animals is extremely questionable. There is some evidence that that kind of behaviour occurs among animals that have become severely contaminated by pollutants."

I would suggest Sir you fabricated this response-you simply made it up in the heat of response.Am I wrong? Tell us then why you did not provide the information from which to show animals do not

engage in homo-sexuality. Its idiotic. The evidence of homo-sexuality in animals is so abundant and easily found even by people who do not approve of homo-sexuality to make me ask the next question-do you also question whether the world is round?

Your nonsensical statement that animals become gay because of pollutants is sheer fabrication. You never read that did you or are you suggesting Elton John is gay because he breathed in too much smog?

Homo-sexuality Sir as any scientist can yell you is a way nature randomly builds into life forms, a regulating mechacnism for population growth. If there is no war, and optimally there is no disease, its a way to naturally control population growth. It is one of nature's many ways of regulating itself.

Your project upon it your moral feelings or demonizing it as pedophilia to justify your hatred of it does not change that fact.

And one last thing and hear me loud and clear to the following comments that you keep repeating;

"Because they were brainwashed to believe this.

That's because that's what you've been conditioned to believe by persistant propagandization by the "gay rights" movement."

Don't you dare tell me how I arrive at my thoughts and beliefs and suggest because you disagree with them I must be brainwashed. This is sheer ignorance and intolerance on your part and is used as a device by you to demonize and dismiss anyone who will not agree with you.

No Sir we are not all brainwashed. No gay person brainwashed me. I am proud to be their friends and associate with them and I respect them and their right to be gay. Yes Sir its possible to be straight and believe gays are NORMAL and decent and no different then me simply because they have a different sexual preference.

If there were only two humans left on this planet and one of them was gay and the other one was you-guess who I would pick-hint; Jodie Foster.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

So now I will spell it out for you in clear terms. When you use the above terms of reference you equate gays to Nazis pure and simple and no trying to deny what you said.

I suppose kengs can compare The Gay Movement to Nazis if he wishes. Then again, that means we're free enough to compare Nazis to Christians. They're all movements driven by ideology.

Of course, most of us would have the sense to realise that's where the similarities end (though I wonder, sometimes, about the Evangelicals in the US, and what they'd do if given access to too much power...)

Yoh Bambi, I am similiar to Hitler. I am a man with a bad hair cut and attitude and I am wearing a brown shirt today.

[Higgly]

Wow. To think all this started from a post about a fairy tale.

[kengs333]

No I am not finished with you. You engaged in anti-semitic babble and I addressed that issue but I now come back to your attack on gays which you say is not hateful.

Hold on a second, here; before I even bother to respond to the rest of your diatribe, please explain to me exactly how am I being "anti-semitic"?

[Rue]

Hold on a second, here; before I even bother to respond to the rest of your diatribe, please explain to me exactly how am I being "anti-semitic"?

By breathing then writing what you did. You made ridiculous negative generalizations about Jews. But then this comes from a guy who feels gay animals are the result of pollutants.

[Rue]

Wow. To think all this started from a post about a fairy tale.

Aren't you glad its not you! AHahah I am sure Buffy is hiding.