Dumbledore's Gay

[cybercoma]

This is so sad and disturbing. So basically JKR creates a series of books that gets children hooked and then in then end slams them with a revelation that one of the characters is gay, thus forcing young--some very young--children to accept notions of sexual deviance that they shouldn't have to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7...000/7054074.stm

I'm sure all those "very young children" are just glued to their newspapers waiting to read press releases on Dumbledore's sexual orientation.

Besides, if the merely knowing of homosexuality is going to sway young children to become homosexuals, I'm sure all the sexually suggestive heterosexuality in popular culture will sway them back. [/sarcasm]

PS: kengs, could you outline what sexual activities are "deviant" so the rest of us can know what sexual behaviours are acceptable to you.

Edited October 22, 2007 by cybercoma

[jazzer]

We're talking about people changing their attitudes, lifestyles and worldview--this is something that can happen at any age.

I agree. I was a devout Catholic and I definitely changed my attitude and worldview to one of a more tolerant and accepting belief. In a sense I outgrew organized religion and I haven't been happier. Something I do remember of the NT is to love your neighbour, and that includes gays.

Edited October 22, 2007 by jazzer

[cybercoma]

So is pedophilia, but that doesn't make it normal, and it doesn't mean we should assault kids with it.

This post is like saying caffeine is a drug and having coffee for breakfast is like packing your child's nose full of coke.

[cybercoma]

That doesn't make any sense. What's moral and immoral in Christianity is defined in the NT, not by what an organized church states to be the case. An organized church that accepts the teachings of Christ and abides by them is correct; an organized church that twists the teachings of Christ, as do pro-gay churches, are incorrect. But not only that, they are spreading false teachings.

Who really cares about Christ's teachings? The majority of people on the planet don't believe in them anyway. There is absolutely nothing that suggests there is anything correct or superior about them.

[ScottSA]

You're denying that the Crusades were a holy war? Let's see. From Wikipedia: Pope sanctions most crusades in the name of Christendom. Purpose is recapture Jerusalem from the Muslims.

The origin of the Crusades is directly traceable to the moral and political condition of Western Christendom in the eleventh century. At that time Europe was divided into numerous states whose sovereigns were absorbed in tedious and petty territorial disputes while the emperor, in theory the temporal head of Christendom, was wasting his strength in the quarrel over Investitures. The popes alone had maintained a just estimate of Christian unity; they realized to what extent the interests of Europe were threatened by the Byzantine Empire and the Mohammedan tribes, and they alone had a foreign policy whose traditions were formed under Leo IX and Gregory VII. The reform effected in the Church and the papacy through the influence of the monks of Cluny had increased the prestige of the Roman pontiff in the eyes of all Christian nations; hence none but the pope could inaugurate the international movement that culminated in the Crusades.

link

I don't know what Jefferiah is saying, but what I'll say is that the Crusades were fought in an effort to take back from Islam what it had taken in the first place. Folks seem to forget that the Middle east was once largely Judeo-Christian, and in any event belonged to the eastern empire ('Bysantine Empire' in the reference cited by you). It's not clear to me why someone writing in Wiki claims Bysantium was a threat to the papacy or europe...it certainly hadn't made any advances upon it for centuries; unlike Islam.

[kengs333]

This post is like saying caffeine is a drug and having coffee for breakfast is like packing your child's nose full of coke.

Actually, not it's not.

[kengs333]

I agree. I was a devout Catholic and I definitely changed my attitude and worldview to one of a more tolerant and accepting belief. In a sense I outgrew organized religion and I haven't been happier. Something I do remember of the NT is to love your neighbour, and that includes gays.

Yeah, loving one's neighbour doesn't mean you have to accept their sinfulness. I commend you for leaving the Catholic church, but if you have as a result chosen to turn your back on Christ yet again, I don't see how you can claim you've grown. To live in sin and to allow others to live in sin is the easy and convenient thing to do; change takes effort, it means improving, and by what you say, that's not what you done.

[jazzer]

To live in sin and to allow others to live in sin is the easy and convenient thing to do; change takes effort, it means improving, and by what you say, that's not what you done.

I hate to go off on a tangent, but I can tell you I have definitely improved my life by leaving the church and its dogma behind. I not only rely on the underlying message of Christianity, but also the lessons of many Eastern philosophies as well. To say I haven't improved is ridiculous because you know not where I came from or where I am spiritually. And oh, for the record, sin, like most religious precepts, is man's invention.

[g_bambino]

What's right and wrong is absolute, whether you care to admit it or not. If a large percentage or even the majority of people in Canada felt that pedophelia is normal, would you therefore feel that there no reason whay it can't be considered normal? The reality is--as sick and disgusting as it is--that many people in Canada do feel that it is normal. It was common place in the ancient world, ancient Greece and Rome, the foundations of our modern democracy, is practiced in many countries throughout the world. By your criteria this mankes it normal. But morally, of course, it is not.

Your words actually illustrate beautifully how "right and wrong" are hardly absolutes; they're two ends of a pole created and defined by humans, the form of which, as with all human constructs, fluctuates throughout different contexts.

If you lived in Greece twenty-five hundred years ago, it's extremely likely you would have thought paedophilia normal, and homosexuality - though they had no concept of these modern labels. However, because of a whole confluence of factors, including the emergence of Christianity as a dominant religion in a powerful society, we came to view both those acts as "wrong." But, further demonstrating how our views are constantly in flux, those Christian mores are weakening, and our culture is coming to see homosexuality, at least, as an acceptable part of human existence (though, it remains - hopefully not for long - as but one end of a simplistic either-or choice). I can't possibly predict where we'll go re. paedophilia. Children need to be protected, but, then, the ancient Greeks went a long way to protect their kids; sex between men and young boys was a part of the coming-of-age experience, but there were laws, both written and conventional, which were meant to protect boys from harm.

Kids' books and tales have contained sexual elements for centuries; so, we can't complain that the introduction of a "gay" character into Harry Potter offends us from that point of view. So, if it's merely about the presence of homosexual content: if our collective thinking is altering, why be shocked that contemporary stories reflect that zeitgeist? I'd only be disappointed if Rowling was using her books as a way to promote to kids a narrow-minded belief that people must choose one of two sexual labels and then adhere to the appropriate "lifestyle"; though, sadly, that's what the majority of western society - off the European continent, anyway - seems to think. So, I guess I can't be shocked if that's what she did do.

Edited October 22, 2007 by g_bambino

[ScottSA]

If you lived in Greece twenty-five hundred years ago, it's extremely likely you would have thought paedophilia normal, and homosexuality - though they had no concept of these modern labels.

You illustrate so beautifully the link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Thank you.

[g_bambino]

You illustrate so beautifully the link between pedophilia and homosexuality.

In Ancient Greece, yes.

[Later]: Though, thinking further on this, did they not marry girls off at thirteen and fourteen years old? Maybe the correlation actually wasn't distinctly between paedophilia and homosexuality.

Edited October 22, 2007 by g_bambino

[bk59]

You illustrate so beautifully the link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Thank you.

Actually, it doesn't. Greek society may have thought both to be normal. That doesn't mean they are linked. We think that driving on the right side of the road is normal and also that going to the movies is a normal activity. Does that mean that there is a connection between these two activities? (No.)

In Ancient Greece, yes.

[Later]: Though, thinking further on this, did they not marry girls off at thirteen and fourteen years old? Maybe the correlation actually wasn't distinctly between paedophilia and homosexuality.

This quote from the study I linked to earlier may also be of interest:

In fact, throughout most of history, the Judeo-Christian tradition tolerated and even approved of sexual relations between adult males and girls of twelve years of age or even younger.

Clearly the links between pedophilia and sexual orientation are not as clear as some on this forum would like to believe.

[Melanie_]

The fact that you've been brainwashed to believe homosexuality is not deviant does not change the fact that in absolute terms homosexuality is not wrong.

Oops - Freudian slip? Or perhaps you've just seen the error of your ways, and recognize that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Using Christianity, or any religion, to tell others how to live their lives is the real problem. The Magic Sky Pixie might be important to you, but to others it is just a silly superstition that is irrelevent in the real world. You can feel free to do what the voices tell you, but don't expect the rest of us to follow along.

[ScottSA]

Oops - Freudian slip? Or perhaps you've just seen the error of your ways, and recognize that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Using Christianity, or any religion, to tell others how to live their lives is the real problem. The Magic Sky Pixie might be important to you, but to others it is just a silly superstition that is irrelevent in the real world. You can feel free to do what the voices tell you, but don't expect the rest of us to follow along.

How odd it must seem to you that the majority of the people around you believe in some form of "sky pixie." Almost like the insane fellow insisting that he's perfectly sane; it's just everyone else who has a problem...

[bk59]

Oops - Freudian slip? Or perhaps you've just seen the error of your ways, and recognize that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Nice catch.

I wonder if kengs333 will ever answer my question about why homosexuality is an absolute wrong. I'm guessing that I should not be holding my breath.

[kengs333]

If you lived in Greece twenty-five hundred years ago, it's extremely likely you would have thought paedophilia normal, and homosexuality - though they had no concept of these modern labels. However, because of a whole confluence of factors, including the emergence of Christianity as a dominant religion in a powerful society, we came to view both those acts as "wrong." But, further demonstrating how our views are constantly in flux, those Christian mores are weakening, and our culture is coming to see homosexuality, at least, as an acceptable part of human existence (though, it remains - hopefully not for long - as but one end of a simplistic either-or choice). I can't possibly predict where we'll go re. paedophilia. Children need to be protected, but, then, the ancient Greeks went a long way to protect their kids; sex between men and young boys was a part of the coming-of-age experience, but there were laws, both written and conventional, which were meant to protect boys from harm.

So basically what you're saying is that with the proper legislation in place to protect children who engage in sex acts with adults, pedophelia would be okay? That's pretty disgusting.

[kengs333]

Oops - Freudian slip? Or perhaps you've just seen the error of your ways, and recognize that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Using Christianity, or any religion, to tell others how to live their lives is the real problem. The Magic Sky Pixie might be important to you, but to others it is just a silly superstition that is irrelevent in the real world. You can feel free to do what the voices tell you, but don't expect the rest of us to follow along.

Thanks for point that out. It looks to me that it has something to do with the exact same phrase just above it; when I have to type quickly I slip up just like anyone else. You'll notice two that earlier I used the word "not" incorrectly as well. When it comes down to it, though, it's clear enough what my argument is and to make an issue out something like just speaks to the fact my opponents are having a little difficuly themselves, I suppose.

I'm not governed by voices, but rely on teachings from the Bible for guidance.

I feel that I can discuss my faith when and where I want; it's not for you to decide that others don't want to hear what I have to say. For some something may take root and they will eventually come to realize the Truth and find salvation in Jesus Christ.

[kengs333]

Actually, it doesn't. Greek society may have thought both to be normal. That doesn't mean they are linked. We think that driving on the right side of the road is normal and also that going to the movies is a normal activity. Does that mean that there is a connection between these two activities? (No.)

Again, there's no logic to this. Both pedophelia and homosexuality are what exactly? Kinds of (deviant) sex. Going to a movie and driving a car are two totally different things. Pedophelia and homosexuality are not. Pedophelia is a celebrated aspect of male gay culture. Ancient Greek men who engaged in sex with boys are pedophiles and homosexuals.

[Peter F]

Pedophelia is a celebrated aspect of male gay culture.

Where did you get that crap from? The NT?

[GostHacked]

Kengs333

I would rather be a happy gay, than a depressed heterosexual.

It is not a matter of choice. It is a matter of knowing who and what you are. If you are gay, and you have decided to be happy and gay and believing in yourself, who cares what the likes of you say to people. It is a non issue. If I am forced to become something I am not, something I do not believe I am, I will not lead a happy productive life.

Immoral? Proof? What is also immoral, is adultery, but instead you kick on the gays for ruining things. Do they ruin the sanctity of marriage? No I do not believe so. Divorce is so common now a days, it is common to see people go through 2 or 3 marriages. That far outweighs the immorality of being gay. Do gays ruin society?

Why do you want to ruin anyones happyness for being who they really believe they are. If they are gay and know it, and are proud of it, not much you can say or do to change that. Even all your ranting here about how immoral it is, you cannot change a thing.

I would bet that one of your family members is gay. How do you deal with that? Or are you man enough to deal with it? Would you tell him he is no longer a family member?

I have had gay-ish experiences when I was a kid. Does that make me immoral? Or does that just make me human. I explored it some, and found out it is not what I am. It is all about knowing who you are and being happy with who you are.

Depression, anxiety and many of these other mental disorders are caused by internal conflicts in people. It is about who they are and what society tells them to be. Have you ever done something against your wishes? How did you deal with it? Were you happy?

No one addressed my post before about how this Harry Potter business got millions of kids to read books. They are reading. Learning. If they have questions, that is why they have parents to answer these questions. Questions lead to learning and understanding.

I'd be more scared if these books did not make children ask questions about things.

Keng333, you are definitely not a live, let live kind of person. Could this be your own personal struggle with homosexuality? Are you gay, but the conflict in you and your upbringing tells you that you should not be gay?

EDIT....

I want to add this. Keng, have you been homosexually abused as a child?

Edited October 23, 2007 by GostHacked

[g_bambino]

This quote from the study I linked to earlier may also be of interest...[snip]

Clearly the links between pedophilia and sexual orientation are not as clear as some on this forum would like to believe.

Yes, that's exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. Thank you.

[g_bambino]

So basically what you're saying is that with the proper legislation in place to protect children who engage in sex acts with adults, pedophelia would be okay? That's pretty disgusting.

Nope, that's just your creative interpretation of what I said. I just said how it was, not how I think it should be.

[g_bambino]

Again, there's no logic to this. Both pedophelia and homosexuality are what exactly? Kinds of (deviant) sex.

Deviant from what, exactly?

Ancient Greek men who engaged in sex with boys are pedophiles and homosexuals.

Only within the western world's modern lexicon. Yet, how can we actually justify retroactively labelling men who, while also occasionally copulating with boys, willingly - and frequently - engaged in sex with adult women (though, again, there's variation between then and now as to what constitutes an adult) as purely homosexual paedophiles? Methinks there's some willful ignorance of the complexity of human sexuality going on here.

Edited October 23, 2007 by g_bambino

[margrace]

That's because that's what you've been conditioned to believe by persistant propagandization by the "gay rights" movement. Homosexuality used to be a crime, but that was changed because of pressure from gay rights groups, among other things. That's the one sure way of reducing crime rates; if too many people become involved in a form of crime, make the laws more lenient or get rid of them altogether. It's the same approach that the people who want to decriminalize marijuana take, and likely will be the same one that pedophiles will take eventually as well.

We live in the near north we have gay neighbours out in the country, at last people, who no fault of their own are gay, are welcomed to the Canadian family, get used to it and quite trying to stir up trouble to suit your own sick beliefs.

Edited October 23, 2007 by margrace

[bk59]

Again, there's no logic to this. Both pedophelia and homosexuality are what exactly? Kinds of (deviant) sex. Going to a movie and driving a car are two totally different things. Pedophelia and homosexuality are not. Pedophelia is a celebrated aspect of male gay culture. Ancient Greek men who engaged in sex with boys are pedophiles and homosexuals.

You again repeat the same claims over and over. Ignoring the evidence that shows you are incorrect and never providing any rationale other than "I think it is immoral".