Army Guy Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 I only recall Northern Alliance coming into any prominence when the got US prop. Before that, as far as I can recall, we were only active in one or two northern provinces. Taleban did control most of the territory - without any support from any foreign power. You keep saying that the taliban were not being supported and yet i've given you the refs and links that prove that they were. As for the Northern alliance research into that area will also prove that they were a major player in the area well before the US decided to back them in fighting. Oh my. I'd love to believe nice and fuzzy dreams too. But there's also such thing as realilty. Which is made of traditions, lifestyles, internal power balance and so on - things that just won't change on an inspiration from a friendly outsider. Afghan people will have to find their own path to freedom. Guiding them along the path which may not be right for them, propping up a government that cannot govern (or why would it need such a massive propping otherwise?) - ironically may work against the very trends to democracy we want so much to encourage I think we all believe in nice and fuzzy things, but what everyone fails to notice is that our friendly inspiration has taken root and in most cases is running along side with what the people want. i won't lie to you both sides have thier own opinons on how the country should be run and how it should look but at the end of the day it is Afgan run by Afganis...and in the end when all is said and done and they end up with a government that is different we will have to live with that. What is important now that we establish peace and rebuild the country so it can stand on it's own.... Today the media is reporting a massive Taleban attack on a district 10-15 miles from Kandahar city. Population fleeing, claiming that previously safe area is becoming dangerous agian. Media is also reporting bodycounts. But I don't think its about bodycounts. It's the show of power. If Taleban dare to attack foreigners next to their stronghold, less and less people will openly support the government. More will think twice and perpaps give some covert support to the opposition even if to keep their options open. Of course the view is better from closer up. Your coming to the wrong conclusion, The leader of that area (one that is friendly towards NATO) has died and with no immediate replacement it has left a power void, in attempts to fill it the taliban have mustered a meduim size force to sieze it.... keep in mind that winter is coming and this is there last kick of the cat, when winter comes , most of the fighting will stop. NATO will press home these attacks and will not allow this city to fall, as it holds importance to each side... These events happen every fall, and spring the taliban go on the offensive and the regroup and train over the winter.. fighting in Afgan I'm sorry, but I entirely fail to understand that (i.e "building democracy"). Would you like a stranger from outside come in and start building your life - for you? Freedom either exists, and then it has to be able to prove itself. Or it doesn't, then the best thing we can do is wait and hope.If after 30 years of war, someone extended thier hand and asked can we help bring you peace and rebuild your country would you not except it...The Afganis government has excepted it and they want our help...as do the majority of AFganis people...they are sick of war, they are sick of death, starving, they just want what we take advantage everyday they want to see thier kids grow up, healthy, and to a better future. Is that so bad a thing to want , or for that matter give another...Most Canadian soldiers have been on countless missions across the globe, most involve keeping hostile nations apart, trying to repair the damage they have done to each other...but most times we sit on the side lines and watch the innocent get hurt or killed, as these nations try and make thier pionts, while the suffering goes on... Today we have a chance to stand up and make a difference, by driving out an enemy that is bent on not allowing the people those basic human rights, to prove to them that yes we do care and we will help... we are not garenteed the outcome good or bad, but we do owe them a chance...And as a nation with so much to offer why would we not help them...have we truely missed all the funding that we've spent on that country todate, has it hurt us, has it effected our daily lives that much we need to stop...Our soldiers think it's worth the effort, and they are the ones risking thier own lives in this noble cause, why can't Canadians see that , why can't we support this mission which really has not truely effected our lives but a few dollars of our tax monies... Nothing will get down if we are all sitting around waiting for things to happen, we need to take an active approach and make things happen. Maybe that is just the military ethos coming out but i don't see the wait and see thing working either. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
old_bold&cold Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 Taliban Fighters Move In Near Kandahar for First Time Since 2001 What does this mean? For the past few weeks there have been stories of the Taliban gaining ground, reclaiming areas that they were previously ousted from. Is it just a minor flare up of the violence or something to be more concerned about? If you have been following the Afghan mission closely, you would know that come every fall around this time, the Taliban make a move to push for more territory to hold and be able to draw from. They do this since it almost always falls in the fighting over the long winter. As the Taliban has not really gained much over the summer, they have to do some really big things if they are to be seen as a viable enemy, and then making it easier to find willing recruits, over the slower winter months. If they managed to take anything of consquence, that will be a big plus for their side. But as you have read, even though these have been some of the most organised operations from the Taliban to date, they are being repelled back and taking many casualties with them. In fact they have large numbers of fighters that are surrounded by Afghna and collition forces. This may well be a rout on their side, and that is not good for the winter coming. They need to have wins, and gains in ground and territories, or they will be seen as losing the fight, and that will mean tougher times recruiting people for their cause. Also remember that it is not just the Canadian troops and places that this has happened it has been all over the place, even more peaceful places. It was to be a show of strength for the Taliban, but and I hope, that it does keep them at bay, and severely reduce the numbers of Taliban fighting. if we can do this now, it will be a large turning point for the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan. Quote
myata Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 Quite a consolation isn't it? - "these things happen every fall" (and spring - see above); and summer? Meanwhile there're reports that even Kabul is becoming less safe (on CBC a few weeks ago, by a rep of a large international humanitarian organization in Afghan, a week or so back). Someone independent, who doesn't have direct (like generals) or political (like Harper) stake in this, has to take a good hard look at what is actually going on. It appears less and less that we are there to "help" or "rebuild", much more like we're fighting a civil war, taking one side. I'd question very strongly if we should be doing that not in the least because our involvement in the conflict itself may tip the balance to the other side. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
old_bold&cold Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 Quite a consolation isn't it? - "these things happen every fall" (and spring - see above); and summer?Meanwhile there're reports that even Kabul is becoming less safe (on CBC a few weeks ago, by a rep of a large international humanitarian organization in Afghan, a week or so back). Someone independent, who doesn't have direct (like generals) or political (like Harper) stake in this, has to take a good hard look at what is actually going on. It appears less and less that we are there to "help" or "rebuild", much more like we're fighting a civil war, taking one side. I'd question very strongly if we should be doing that not in the least because our involvement in the conflict itself may tip the balance to the other side. Myata I am very proud of our soldiers and also the Afghan troops who fight the Taliban daily and are winning the war. Anad yes there are troop engagements that do come with the onslot of different seasons. Only a fool would not see that. I am though ashamed of you and your constant "we are better then this" posts, when you know full well, that the only reason the likes of you can speak as you do, is because others have died in the effort to be give you those rights. All war is bad, and senseless hype, does not show wisdom, but by the very fact that you think it is something we should achieve, shows just how you are not in any way worldly in any of your reasons. Funny how you are here and talking all this, when if you were a man with the convictions you say you have, you would put your maony where your mouth is and go over the Afghanistan, and offer to be a peace negoiator for the Taliban. Just go onto any mountainous area, and say what you want publicly, and see what happens. As you seem to knwo so much about the right and wrong, to expalin it to those who need to be taught. Let me know when you do this and I will pay for your return ticket home first class, but only as a living person, not as a casket. You make the most of the fact that Kabul is less safe. But you forget that it is in a war zone and less safe is by any means still quite a feat. Less safe means what exactly? If I take a gun to a shooting match in Quebec City, is that less safe now because I have a gun in the city, or more safe because I store and transport all my weapons in the safe manner according to law? If I hand a kid in the middle of a high school fight over a girl a knife, is that less safe or would it make the guy stop and say this is not worth dying for or even fighting for. Would that be more safe or less safe. You see it all depends on what the exact issues and how they will be taken and used that make it more or less safe. So I do not think you have been to Afghanistan, so you probably have to rely on others for your input. But I will ask you this question, are we seeing any large scale desertions from our forces over there? Are those who have to face this each and everyday, complaining about being there? So with out these kinds of thing that would be the forst signs of a bad mission, are not present, then what gives you the reason for comdemning them for their fight and goals. You do not believe in this fight, and that is why you are here in Canada, at your computer safe and sound, telling all who will listen how enlightened you are and that all wars are bad, and killing should all be stopped. In eutopia maybe this would fly, and you may even feel that life in Canada is eutopia, but it is not. We have real life issues with guns and crime and murders that happen each and everyday. That is why we have police and even soldiers so we can live safer in our own homes. only in eutopia is where all these things do not matter. So since that is your goal. then maybe you should go find this eutopia, as it is not here by any stretch of the imagination. Quote
Wilber Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) Quite a consolation isn't it? - "these things happen every fall" (and spring - see above); and summer?Meanwhile there're reports that even Kabul is becoming less safe (on CBC a few weeks ago, by a rep of a large international humanitarian organization in Afghan, a week or so back). Someone independent, who doesn't have direct (like generals) or political (like Harper) stake in this, has to take a good hard look at what is actually going on. It appears less and less that we are there to "help" or "rebuild", much more like we're fighting a civil war, taking one side. I'd question very strongly if we should be doing that not in the least because our involvement in the conflict itself may tip the balance to the other side. Harper appointed Manley a member of the Liberal party to head a committee to do just that didn't he? The Taliban's record as a ruling entity is a known quantity, I for one have no problem with taking sides against them. The Taliban will fight where they can and how they can, that's why this stuff happens every fall and spring. It's not a consolation, just the way this war is fought. When I hear stuff like this the Tet offensive during the Viet Nam war comes to mind. Although the folks at home didn't understand at the time, it was a military disaster for the Viet Cong but a resounding propaganda success when it came to undermining support for the war in the US. Edited November 1, 2007 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
M.Dancer Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 So far, as it stands this impotent Taliban offensive is a rousing success for NATO. They're running out of virgins in paradise...... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted November 1, 2007 Report Posted November 1, 2007 Quite a consolation isn't it? - "these things happen every fall" (and spring - see above); and summer? I know it may be a lame answer, but it is how they operate, and have since they were fighting. does it make since to go out in a bang every fall not one militarily anyway.. Meanwhile there're reports that even Kabul is becoming less safe (on CBC a few weeks ago, by a rep of a large international humanitarian organization in Afghan, a week or so back). The media is a funny animal, don't believe half of which is written, and always question it all... Someone independent, who doesn't have direct (like generals) or political (like Harper) stake in this, has to take a good hard look at what is actually going on. Here is where Canada has failed, and i do agree here. someone that can be trusted by the people of Canada. Below is a few sites of what is happening in regards to rebuilding this year alone, some sites do mention Canada's entire contribution sine the start. but they will give you an idea of whats going on...i also want you to keep in mind these projects are carried out in a combat enviroment...meaning it takes twice as many people, and twice the amount of effort to accomplish a small task... PRT other PRT PRT minister Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
myata Posted November 2, 2007 Report Posted November 2, 2007 Good links. However I have an issue with how this high level optimism lines up with a number of reports and stories about deteriorating situation not only in remote provinces but in Kabul as well. Of course, this is nothing do to with (Canadian and other nations) people on the ground. They're doing the best they can. I take exception to the whole idea that a nation can be "built" like a castle in a sandlot. More often than not, it's an illusion, wishful thinking. Which already proven wrong in the same place on at least two previous occasions. Sure reconstruction efforts is the right way to go. But its Afghans themselves who should recognize and drive building of their nation. Not a bunch of foreign experts. Afghans must invest their time and resources into building country's infrastructure. They also have to be able to defend themselves if the new government is something they really value. What we are doing instead is building their castle for them. What would you do if you had $60,000 - free, our complements. If you can't handle 200-300 lightly armed insurgents, call NATO airstrike. How is it going to teach them to stand on their own legs? Build and keep running their own country? Defend it? No surprise that the longer we stay, the more "you have to stay longer" we hear, whether from Iraq or Afghanistan. Does it show their improving confidence? Ability to govern? Finally (to those interested), I'm not sure if posting in this discussion forum is the best way to demonstrate your excessive patriotism. Dressing up, getting a pair of cymbals, maybe a toy gun too, and go parading up the street would make lot more bang. No thanks needed. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Army Guy Posted November 5, 2007 Report Posted November 5, 2007 I take exception to the whole idea that a nation can be "built" like a castle in a sandlot. More often than not, it's an illusion, wishful thinking. Which already proven wrong in the same place on at least two previous occasions. This thinking is wrong, first off rebuilding the nation has not been done in the past, Those attempts you've made mention to were nations trying to conquor Afgan. we are not there to conquor anyone...and the nation is on the road to recovery, and the rebuilding is working , just not fast enough, for everyone concerned...New highways, factories, maket places are not illisions, but real very real, proof that results are being made. Sure reconstruction efforts is the right way to go. But its Afghans themselves who should recognize and drive building of their nation. Not a bunch of foreign experts. Afghans must invest their time and resources into building country's infrastructure. They also have to be able to defend themselves if the new government is something they really value All the reconstruction effort is being driven by the Afganis government, at all levels, right down to the villages. most of the reconstruction is being down by the Afganis people themselfs, the links i gave you where just what our PRT has accomplished, the Afganis government list is much larger... The Afganis people are investing everything they have into rebuilding thier nation, but this is not going to happen overnight, nor is it going to happen without our support and funding. I'm always curious to find out what peoples opinions were when we spent over 12 years in Bosina, ,25 years in Cyprus, 30 plus years in Syria...and why all of sudden do we need to set a dead line for Afgan, one that is impossiable to meet, one that could undo everything done to date... One that brings about the question why even go in the first place if we are not allowed to finish the job, or atleast make a difference...So we can all sit in our chairs and feel good about ourselfs...and mutter under our breaths we did our share...we're going home....That might work for alot of canadians...but not for me, we made a promise, not only to the Afganis people, but the rest of our coalition that we would help "for better or worse" so to speak....Canadians made that promise and we should keep it... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Fortunata Posted November 5, 2007 Report Posted November 5, 2007 The media is a funny animal, don't believe half of which is written, and always question it all... It isn't just the media though, that's the problem. Even you, Army Guy, will look at what's happening with a prejudiced eye. You can't help it, media can't help it - that's the way human nature works. I believe the media is telling the truth, just not all of it. I believe you are telling the truth but not all of it. The government is the one that I believe the least, especially this government as it has been so secretive. If something comes out you know it is either propaganda to back up whatever plans they may have or it is a test run, so to speak, to gauge public reaction. All I know is that doing what needs to be done will take a long time. The best we can do is carry on until we can't. The biggest danger to finishing what you have started is the politicians looking at how being honest and politically uncorrect will affect their votes as it seems to be just a game to them instead of being a matter of life and death, country or anarchy. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 Fortunata: It isn't just the media though, that's the problem. Even you, Army Guy, will look at what's happening with a prejudiced eye. You can't help it, media can't help it - that's the way human nature works.Your right, i do look at this problem with a prejudice outlook, for serveral reasons, I've been there seen the sites ,the smells, talked to the people, plus i have a vested interest of sorts, to see this to the finish. I've seen the majority of the media and the way they work, and it left a bad taste in my month. Not only were events slanted to sell papers, but most were told from 2 and or 3 rd hand accounts, not many went outside the wire.. But your right we all slant it to fit our needs or wants. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Guest trex Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 Fortunata:. Your right, i do look at this problem with a prejudice outlook, for serveral reasons, I've been there seen the sites ,the smells, talked to the people, plus i have a vested interest of sorts, to see this to the finish. I've seen the majority of the media and the way they work, and it left a bad taste in my month. Not only were events slanted to sell papers, but most were told from 2 and or 3 rd hand accounts, not many went outside the wire.. But your right we all slant it to fit our needs or wants. I try not to slant it, if I see we are doing good things it should be told. Why is it not being told? I understand there has been some money given for development projects... maybe only 1/10th the amount used for military contracts but ok, where is the money being used. Main quaestion is, why is it not being talked about at all. Since the government and defence minister should have some influence in what the media portrays, to say the least. So for me, and I'm sure mamy others, the silence on it speaks also. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 I try not to slant it, if I see we are doing good things it should be told. Why is it not being told? It is being told, most of the goodwill, or good things are being buried or dismissed by the stuff that sells, the violence and death. although the government does publish this items on it's various web sites and does release this info at press releases...the media does not always print or cover them... The government does not do a good job on making public all the details about the mission...and thier lack of effort in this area has hurt the mission profile in Canada. One has to either be there or pull all this info from all the different sources and read between the lines to get an acurate picture. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 It is being told, most of the goodwill, or good things are being buried or dismissed by the stuff that sells, the violence and death. although the government does publish this items on it's various web sites and does release this info at press releases...the media does not always print or cover them...The government does not do a good job on making public all the details about the mission...and thier lack of effort in this area has hurt the mission profile in Canada. One has to either be there or pull all this info from all the different sources and read between the lines to get an acurate picture. Building a few schools, setting up a few clean waters wells etc....just ain't headline news. It gets reported but it isn't tatooed on our memories......setting up 1000 schools though, will be a different matter. By then though, you will have won the war (which is to say, you will win the war). Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
myata Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 This thinking is wrong, first off rebuilding the nation has not been done in the past, Those attempts you've made mention to were nations trying to conquor Afgan. Depends on terminology. British were building enlightened empire colony, Russians were trying to build communist paradise. Now we're building democracy. Shall I point out that neither of the above has any historical roots in the country? How can you be so sure, that in their eyes we, with our free elections, responsible government, etc won't appear as foreign and strange as e.g. Russians with their communism? and the rebuilding is working , just not fast enough, for everyone concerned...New highways, factories, maket places are not illisions, but real very real, proof that results are being made. All the reconstruction effort is being driven by the Afganis government, at all levels, right down to the villages. most of the reconstruction is being down by the Afganis people themselfs, the links i gave you where just what our PRT has accomplished, the Afganis government list is much larger... Good to hear that. The only question I have then is why is it that Afghani people seeing so many good things happening around, aren't rushing to protect and defend them? We, ourselves are saying - how true is it in your view BTW - that were we to leave now, the country would fall back to Taleban? Is it a little scare to get our less willing partners more involved, or more or less true evaluation of situation? And if it's more or less true then why? Why Afghanis would be more willing, foreign troops removed, to join hated Taleban and not the gentle and democratic government that's doing so much for them? While it's so much harder for the insurgents to recruit undercover while government can go free and easily wherever it wants? I'm always curious to find out what peoples opinions were when we spent over 12 years in Bosina, ,25 years in Cyprus, 30 plus years in Syria...and why all of sudden do we need to set a dead line for Afgan, one that is impossiable to meet, one that could undo everything done to date... Good questions. I wish they were broght up at the time this mission was first evaluated. I.e why are we going, what are we trying to accomplish and for how long. ....Canadians made that promise and we should keep it... If we don't really know what was promised, it makes it quite hard to deliver. Just "being there" does not solve any problems. In some situations (and I'm not saying it's necessarily the case in Afghanistan, but potential for that does exist) foreign involvement can make things worse, in the long run. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
old_bold&cold Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 Myata you seem to question everything and try to make it not worth the efforts. Why are you here if you are so concerned, get off your butt and go to Afghanistan and tell them all this stuff. You only do this because you are safe and warm here in Canada, and you like being petty as we have all seen by your not picking questions. It is sad that we have people like you, who question all war, but will be the first to scream for help if you were ever attacked. War is never a good option, but it is an option when all else has failed. In this case it is the Afghani people who need our help, and you question the reasons why they are not kissing our butts for this help. The biggest reason would be, that to show us any public support could easily mean the Taliban will come by your house that night and slit the throats of any and all your family. You do not live in the same world as these people, and you definitely do nt have even the slightest idea of what and how things are done there. But yet you will condem all thise who fight in this time of need. You really make yourself look small minded and very uncaring, but that is just what you do here. I hope in the real world you are not so foolish to say these things near those who actually risk their lives in this . Quote
Smallc Posted November 6, 2007 Report Posted November 6, 2007 Myata you seem to question everything and try to make it not worth the efforts. Why are you here if you are so concerned, get off your butt and go to Afghanistan and tell them all this stuff. You only do this because you are safe and warm here in Canada, and you like being petty as we have all seen by your not picking questions. It is sad that we have people like you, who question all war, but will be the first to scream for help if you were ever attacked. War is never a good option, but it is an option when all else has failed. In this case it is the Afghani people who need our help, and you question the reasons why they are not kissing our butts for this help. The biggest reason would be, that to show us any public support could easily mean the Taliban will come by your house that night and slit the throats of any and all your family. You do not live in the same world as these people, and you definitely do nt have even the slightest idea of what and how things are done there. But yet you will condem all thise who fight in this time of need. You really make yourself look small minded and very uncaring, but that is just what you do here. I hope in the real world you are not so foolish to say these things near those who actually risk their lives in this . I often wonder why people want us to leave Afghanistan or the US to leave Iraq (even though they should not have been there in the first place). If we leave, where does that leave the people of the country? Where will their security come from? Who will help them rebuild? Another thing that I think people fail to understand is that you cannot have reconstruction without security. These people need our help. Quote
myata Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 Where will their security come from? Who will help them rebuild? Good questions. Where does our security come from? Can security be "given" to a society from outside? Would such a society be ever able to survive on its own? Or are we creating an artificial environment, sort of like for people with extremely weak immune system, in which the country will never develop adequate tools and mechanisms to deal with reality. Meaning that in all likelihood, it'll have to go through another shock once we eventually leave. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Smallc Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 Good questions. Where does our security come from? Can security be "given" to a society from outside? Would such a society be ever able to survive on its own? Or are we creating an artificial environment, sort of like for people with extremely weak immune system, in which the country will never develop adequate tools and mechanisms to deal with reality. Meaning that in all likelihood, it'll have to go through another shock once we eventually leave. Its not the same this time. We are preparing their security forces for the day that we leave. IF they have a well trained security force, they can better keep things under control than in the past. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 Depends on terminology. British were building enlightened empire colony, Russians were trying to build communist paradise. Now we're building democracy. Shall I point out that neither of the above has any historical roots in the country? How can you be so sure, that in their eyes we, with our free elections, responsible government, etc won't appear as foreign and strange as e.g. Russians with their communism? look at the polling numbers, they are higher than we have here in Canada, add to the fact that many walked more than 50 kms to get to the polls and i think you'll have your answer. What you forgot to mention that the first two invaded with the intention of building another extention of thier empire. yes, we did invade and we were going to leave, it was the Afganis government that asked us to remain behind, and assist... Good to hear that. The only question I have then is why is it that Afghani people seeing so many good things happening around, aren't rushing to protect and defend them? You make it sound like NATO is running the whole show , that the Afganis people are doing nothing just sitting back and sucking everything in....thats not true....but then again you discount what it is like to live over there. Ever been hungry i mean really hungry ,not eaten for 4 or 5 days....You have a family ? ever seen them hungry ? do you think that would rip you apart from the inside...it is a major effort just to get water everyday, not to bath in but to drink..stop thinking like a western person, who has running water, can flush a tiolet, wipe there ass with paper, and not dirt...these are but a few of the every day struggles that face the Afgan people...and top of all that they mange to enlist in the police force and army and serve thier country...they mange huge construction projects, build new roads and markets, etc etc how true is it in your view BTW - that were we to leave now, the country would fall back to Taleban? If Canada was to leave now, it would put additional stress on those contries left behind, it would also slow progress down that much more...would the taliban gain control not a chance If NATO and all our support was to pull out, then i think that the present day government would not be long in power, it is very debateable on whom would take over, i don't think the taliban would regain power, but there would be a larger taliban presence than there is now... The Afgan people want peace, first and foremost, then they want jobs so they can feed thier families...anyone that can promise that and deliver would get the support of the people... Is it a little scare to get our less willing partners more involved, or more or less true evaluation of situation NO, most western countries don't want to get involved, to much time and effort, and then thiers the sacrafice of thier soldiers...Afgan does not have anything to offer...much like Dafur....see any western nations beating down thier door to help...So do not base the lack of people willing to help a true evaluation of the situation because it is not.... We in the west don't do much unless there is a pay off...what is the pay off for Canada in Afgan... If we don't really know what was promised, it makes it quite hard to deliver. Just "being there" does not solve any problems. In some situations (and I'm not saying it's necessarily the case in Afghanistan, but potential for that does exist) foreign involvement can make things worse, in the long run. That statement gave me a warm a fuzzy feeling as a soldier, in other words our government committed our troops to whatever and Canadians just showed up to wave good bye...then they started asking questions....why, how long , etc etc... mean while in whoville our troops are involved in combat ops fighting and dying, and Canadians don't know why...Holly ball of shit batman... I'm glad that the citizens of this country are so concerned over my welfare... if thats the case it's been 6 years when were you guys going to demand something be done...2011... And today we are concerned with what getting an answer to this question or demanding that Taliban POW's are treated properly...I'm confused...where do our nations soldiers fit into this equation...or do we ? Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Fortunata Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 (edited) Ever been hungry i mean really hungry ,not eaten for 4 or 5 days....You have a family ? ever seen them hungry ? do you think that would rip you apart from the inside...it is a major effort just to get water everyday, not to bath in but to drink..stop thinking like a western person, who has running water, can flush a tiolet, wipe there ass with paper, and not dirt...these are but a few of the every day struggles that face the Afgan people...and top of all that they mange to enlist in the police force and army and serve thier country...they mange huge construction projects, build new roads and markets, etc etc There is no doubt that we are spoiled here. The pioneers could probably relate better than our generation, and, yes, those who do think about it haven't lived it and can't totally know. How could we know? It's not our fault we don't know; we can't all jump up and go to Afghanistan to find out. Don't hammer us - educate us. I, for one and I don't think I am alone here, appreciate all you can tell us about how things are. What you say doesn't fall on deaf ears even you may think it does. The Afgan people want peace, first and foremost, then they want jobs so they can feed thier families...anyone that can promise that and deliver would get the support of the people... NO, most western countries don't want to get involved, to much time and effort, and then thiers the sacrafice of thier soldiers...Afgan does not have anything to offer...much like Dafur....see any western nations beating down thier door to help...So do not base the lack of people willing to help a true evaluation of the situation because it is not....We in the west don't do much unless there is a pay off...what is the pay off for Canada in Afgan... Our government and NATO are failing in their jobs because they are not painting the picture that will bring in help. I have to wonder if they truly believe in this mission because, internationally, our government does not seem to have the passion they portray to our voters, that will ultimately persuade other countries to join in the fight for the Afghan people. That statement gave me a warm a fuzzy feeling as a soldier, in other words our government committed our troops to whatever and Canadians just showed up to wave good bye...then they started asking questions....why, how long , etc etc... mean while in whoville our troops are involved in combat ops fighting and dying, and Canadians don't know why...Holly ball of shit batman...I'm glad that the citizens of this country are so concerned over my welfare... if thats the case it's been 6 years when were you guys going to demand something be done...2011... And today we are concerned with what getting an answer to this question or demanding that Taliban POW's are treated properly...I'm confused...where do our nations soldiers fit into this equation...or do we ? I'm sorry you feel that way. What would you like the public to do? They have shown support, yes by waving you goodbye and then celebrating the hello, or mourning the hello, whatever circumstances dictate. The public debate the issue all the time, is that not keeping you front and center in everyone's awareness? Would you rather there be no debate so you can truly feel forgotten? Would you feel proud to be from a country that says torture is ok, do whatever you want to those scumbags? How will your own personal humanity hold up when the Canadian government says, have at it; do what you will? And then you do? I say the public is doing the best it can do. If you want a more positive response ask your government to start conveying a message to that public more effectively, but a truthful message that doesn't sound like party-line politicking propaganda. A message that the public can actually believe. eta(PS I think you are way off base about Canadians not having concern for your welfare. What you are confusing is the differing viewpoints of what is best) Edited November 7, 2007 by Fortunata Quote
Topaz Posted November 7, 2007 Author Report Posted November 7, 2007 I think most Canadians don't want this war that will probably go on another 5-10 years to put us in to very high debt like the US is from Iraq war. I realize that the military personnel over there want to help the Afghanis but how can you help a country that is known to be corrupt with warlords as part of it?? The money coming from the outside is going to the government and yet people are starving because of no help from their gov't. We have only 2500 troops there, minus the 70 killed in action, what will Harper do when we start losing more and we get down below 800. I hope this never happens but reality says it could. Does Harper bring in a draft? There's still alot of unanswered questions and the military only friend seems to be Hillier and not the gov't. BTW, since Remembrance day coming up, I think the gov't should pay for a wreath on every veterans graveside, after all they DO have a surplus and these people died for this country!! Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 The money coming from the outside is going to the government and yet people are starving because of no help from their gov't. If there is any starvation there, the culprit is painfully clear October 29, 2007: So far this year, Taliban and bandits have raided 55 convoys carrying food aid for starving Afghans. These raids left 34 UN personnel dead, and 76 kidnapped (to be ransomed later). About a thousand tons of food was stolen (to be sold on the open market). This abuse of people bringing aid to desperate Afghans is an ancient local practice. Foreigners, no matter what their intentions, are seen as a potential source of loot. Tribes differ in their attitudes towards these generous foreigners, and some of the tribes, and individuals, prefer to take what they want, rather than wait for some foreigners to give it to them. http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/afghan/art...s/20071101.aspx We have only 2500 troops there, minus the 70 killed in action, what will Harper do when we start losing more and we get down below 800. It pains me to read such sillyness. Such insensitivity and falsehood. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Smallc Posted November 7, 2007 Report Posted November 7, 2007 (edited) I think most Canadians don't want this war that will probably go on another 5-10 years to put us in to very high debt like the US is from Iraq war. I realize that the military personnel over there want to help the Afghanis but how can you help a country that is known to be corrupt with warlords as part of it?? The money coming from the outside is going to the government and yet people are starving because of no help from their gov't. We have only 2500 troops there, minus the 70 killed in action, what will Harper do when we start losing more and we get down below 800. I hope this never happens but reality says it could. Does Harper bring in a draft? There's still alot of unanswered questions and the military only friend seems to be Hillier and not the gov't. BTW, since Remembrance day coming up, I think the gov't should pay for a wreath on every veterans graveside, after all they DO have a surplus and these people died for this country!! The troops that are killed are replaced. We do have over 60000 military personnel you know. Edited November 7, 2007 by Smallc Quote
Army Guy Posted November 13, 2007 Report Posted November 13, 2007 Fortunata: There is no doubt that we are spoiled here. The pioneers could probably relate better than our generation, and, yes, those who do think about it haven't lived it and can't totally know. How could we know? It's not our fault we don't know; we can't all jump up and go to Afghanistan to find out. Don't hammer us - educate us. I, for one and I don't think I am alone here, appreciate all you can tell us about how things are. What you say doesn't fall on deaf ears even you may think it does. I'm sorry if i came across alittle blunt, and it is my intention to educate as much as possiable. Not to make any excuses but i did try and explain to myata serveral times why things are moving slowly for Afganis people. I have no problems with answering questions, but if one is going to make accusations or remarks one should have done alittle research before hand. Afgan is not a new topic, and there is a mountain of info available, As far as "not knowing" all one has to do is goggle it, to get the basics you don't have to go there, or been there , just type... As far as the deaf ears part, not only i'm i giving my opinion , but a general concenus of how most soldiers I've talked to feel about things ongoing in Canada. Our government and NATO are failing in their jobs because they are not painting the picture that will bring in help. I have to wonder if they truly believe in this mission because, internationally, our government does not seem to have the passion they portray to our voters, that will ultimately persuade other countries to join in the fight for the Afghan people. Yes our government has failed in promoting this mission, but it is the tax payer whom also has to share in that burdun. By demanding more, after all they are the voice of Canada, and when they speak loud enough the government will listen... I'm sorry you feel that way. What would you like the public to do? They have shown support, yes by waving you goodbye and then celebrating the hello, or mourning the hello, whatever circumstances dictate. The public debate the issue all the time, is that not keeping you front and center in everyone's awareness? Would you rather there be no debate so you can truly feel forgotten? Would you feel proud to be from a country that says torture is ok, do whatever you want to those scumbags? How will your own personal humanity hold up when the Canadian government says, have at it; do what you will? And then you do? Funney you should ask that question, but how is it that a professor from Ottawa, and a peace group from BC manged to get so much media attention , and government attention, into alligations nothing factually, just alliagations....and yet it is factual infomation that having Helos in Afgan would save dozens of lives, it is factual info that having more troops on the ground would make it safer for all involved, the list is endless...and our voices go unheard, or so it seems to us on the ground.... Now put yourselfs in those soldiers boots. would you think that your suggestions, complaints, your presentations were being listened to, or falling on deaf ears... Every soldier is well aware that the Avg Canadian respects us, and the job we are doing. And is thankful for that support. But there is more that is required. Such as using the power of thier voice to ensure we have the right equipment, the right amount of people, and the right amount of training to accomplish the job you assign us.. It seems to us on the ground that our priorities are a little mixed up at times, when the lives of our enemies come before ours, is that the message we want to send our troops.. As for torture ,Our country has already said where it stands and how our troops are to act in accordance with the laws and conventions. Our countries record on this matter stands for itself, our soldiers are well trained in this matter, and our conduct is outstanding when handling POW's... it has been alittle weak in tracking POW's handing over to other nations. and that has been addressed serveral times..But as a soldier one would hope that our needs and concerns would be addressed first before making sure that our enemies are. I say the public is doing the best it can do. If you want a more positive response ask your government to start conveying a message to that public more effectively, but a truthful message that doesn't sound like party-line politicking propaganda. A message that the public can actually believe. Soldiers are and have told visting polictions of thier weakness in regards to selling this mission. but we are of few vioces, where the people at home are many, this is where the public could do more. speak with one voice...it seemed to work for our professor....But we have yet to see that happen... eta(PS I think you are way off base about Canadians not having concern for your welfare. What you are confusing is the differing viewpoints of what is best) Yes they are concerned, but not concerned enough to take action, that is my piont... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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