The Six Nations and Crime in Ontario

[kengs333]

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Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[Rue]

Criminal statiistics from Juristat (fStatistics Canada) have shown that crime rates on reserves are higher than crime rates outside reserves. Some of this difference can probably be attributed (at least in part) to differences in the nature of policing in these communities and disparities in how the police record such incidents.

What the stats do indicate is that in 2004, there were about 93,000 police-reported Criminal Code incidents on reserves across Canada, representing 4% of the national total . Over half (55%) of on-reserve incidents were classified as "other" Criminal Code offences, i.e., mischief and disturbing the peace, while 25% were violent and 21% were property offences .

In 2004, about 18,800 adults were charged with crimes committed on reserves across Canada. Nearly half of these charges were for violent crimes, followed by other Criminal Code violations (41%) and property crimes (10%).

The crime rate for offences committed on reserves was 28,900 per 100,000 population compared to 8,500 per 100,000 population for crimes committed elsewhere. Overall, rates of violent crime committed on reserves were much higher than rates elsewhere in the country. In particular, compared to the rest of Canada, on-reserve rates were eight times higher for assaults, seven times higher for sexual assaults and six times higher for homicides.

It appears the only violent crime with a higher rate in off-reserve areas was robbery, which had a rate that was almost twice that of the on-reserve population.

The above statistics did not single out particular reserves nor are there statistics kept as per incidents per reserve.

The criminal statistics above in Ontario and Quebec came for self-policing sources, while for the rest of Canada they came from the RCMP.

One does not have to be a genius fo figure out a combination of unemployment, poverty, lack of health, social, education, recreation and community services and facilities, geographic isolation, inferior housing and poor diet are just some of the soci-economic factors underlying these rates.

To try use these rates to suggest aboriginal people by nature are criminals is a racist inference. To suggest it indicates serious socio-economic problems and failures and the inhumane conditions on reserves would make more sense but no doubt I am sure some of you will see what you want to see.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Rue

[jennie]

One does not have to be a genius fo figure out a combination of unemployment, poverty, lack of health, social, education, recreation and community services and facilities, geographic isolation, inferior housing and poor diet are just some of the soci-economic factors underlying these rates.

To try use these rates to suggest aboriginal people by nature are criminals is a racist inference. To suggest it indicates serious socio-economic problems and failures and the inhumane conditions on reserves would make more sense but no doubt I am sure some of you will see what you want to see.

All of those factors are there of course, but one needs to ask why: The answer, spoken quietly to trusted people, is Post Traumatic Stress and Intergenerational Trauma, arising primarily from residential school experiences, and the 'models of behaviour' they learned from there.

[jennie]

but it seems to me that the most concentrated area of criminality in Ontario would be in the vicinity of Ohsweken.

the Six Nations Reserve is a haven for criminals.

Methinks, kengs, that you'd better put your evidence out there. These are defamatory and inflammatory statements without any proof. 'Haven for criminals'?

Show me.

[scribblet]

To try use these rates to suggest aboriginal people by nature are criminals is a racist inference. To suggest it indicates serious socio-economic problems and failures and the inhumane conditions on reserves would make more sense but no doubt I am sure some of you will see what you want to see.

I don't think they are criminal in nature at all, but there are serious problems on the reserves, none of which are addressed properly due to political correctness and the usual name calling (i.e. racist) when these things come up.

Some reserves are pretty deplorable even though there are billions of dollars given every year to the natives. Native politicians et al have little or no accountability for that money and are shielded by the Indian Act

In 2001 there was about 8 billion for 1.23 million natives on about 600 reserves of which 189 come under DIAND management. It's a self perpetuating boondoggle which seems to lower expectations of natives and makes them incapable of self support.

It seems to me that special privileges for this group of people only worsen their conditions .

[Topaz]

Maybe its time to kick out the Bloc in Ottawa and let the First Nation have their own say. The Bloc can never rule, so shouldn't the First People of this country have their say in Ottawa?

[capricorn]

Maybe its time to kick out the Bloc in Ottawa and let the First Nation have their own say. The Bloc can never rule, so shouldn't the First People of this country have their say in Ottawa?

Why haven't First Nations formed a national and/or provincial political party? I would prefer such a party over the Bloc anytime.

[g_bambino]

Why haven't First Nations formed a national and/or provincial political party? I would prefer such a party over the Bloc anytime.

Beyond the racial overtones, can they? As far as I understand it, under the Royal Proclamation of 1763, the FNs are under the sovereignty of the Crown, but out of the jurisdiction of the Queen's government. By my reading, that means FNs could set up their own parliament, but not form a part of ours (by which I mean non-FN Canadians).

[Rue]

Why haven't First Nations formed a national and/or provincial political party? I would prefer such a party over the Bloc anytime.

Its a complicated answer. In short-because under our constitutional framework the FN is considered a collective of collectives or a nation of nations with a right to represent its collectives or nations as one collective entity dealing as an equal with the federal and provincial governments. That said, nothing would preclude them from forming political parties or as they have in the past run as candidates for political parties or engage in innovative government administration such as in Innavut.

[Argus]

All of those factors are there of course, but one needs to ask why: The answer, spoken quietly to trusted people, is Post Traumatic Stress and Intergenerational Trauma, arising primarily from residential school experiences, and the 'models of behaviour' they learned from there.

What a heaping load of sociological crap. Only a fraction of Natives were ever mistreated at residential schools to begin with, and the English spent a number of generations sending all their kids away to boarding schools and only seeing them on holidays, and that did not produce a nation of wastrels, alcoholics and drug abusers.

[M.Dancer]

What a heaping load of sociological crap. Only a fraction of Natives were ever mistreated at residential schools to begin with, and the English spent a number of generations sending all their kids away to boarding schools and only seeing them on holidays, and that did not produce a nation of wastrels, alcoholics and drug abusers.

On the otherhand, a fellow I know, a private school chap from a leading private school that was caught in a boy buggery scandal.....and this said chap being on the receiving end of the buggering (and won a sizable settlement) could easily be described and a wastrel, an alcoholic and a (former ) drug abuser.....

But your right, only a fraction of Hoosiers ever went to residential schools and unlike the chap I know....tgheir parents didn't pay $12,000 for the honour of being best boy......

[scribblet]

What a heaping load of sociological crap. Only a fraction of Natives were ever mistreated at residential schools to begin with, and the English spent a number of generations sending all their kids away to boarding schools and only seeing them on holidays, and that did not produce a nation of wastrels, alcoholics and drug abusers.

Well said the main reason for the above is too many handouts, no incentive to get off the same old train. Just like many welfare recipients, they could do a whole lot better if the fully abled weren't allowed to live off others.

[g_bambino]

...they have in the past run as candidates for political parties or engage in innovative government administration such as in Innavut.

That's true; I didn't think of that.

[g_bambino]

On the otherhand, a fellow I know, a private school chap from a leading private school that was caught in a boy buggery scandal.....and this said chap being on the receiving end of the buggering (and won a sizable settlement) could easily be described and a wastrel, an alcoholic and a (former ) drug abuser.....

But your right, only a fraction of Hoosiers ever went to residential schools and unlike the chap I know....tgheir parents didn't pay $12,000 for the honour of being best boy......

Strange... I may know the teacher involved in said scandal as I may have gone to said school, though I think said chap was there before my time.

[kengs333]

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Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[mikedavid00]

It seems to me that the Six Nations never gets mentioned when there are discussions about crime in this province; focus is always on "big cities," ie. Toronto, but it seems to me that the most concentrated area of criminality in Ontario would be in the vicinity of Ohsweken. I'm not trying to single anyone out here; people of all races are involved in crime. But it seems to me that due to political correctness, there is a deliberate attempt to avoid or downplay the fact that the Six Nations Reserve is a haven for criminals. A solution to the problem can't be found unless the issue can be discussed openly without fears of the discussion being deemed "racist".

Yes and you can say the same about immigrants.

Both are the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.

When you enforce law on Natives, they fight back. I kind of like that about them. Good thing they don't vote and are not that politically active.

I have a soft spot for natives. They have guns, rifles, bullets, camoflauge gear and will fight back to their own gov't if they feel they are wrong.

Oka taught us the hard way. When the Mayor of Cornwall tried to get the police to bust down on smuggling, he came to work one morning to find bullet holes on his office door. I'll never forget those news reports. After this happened the mayor backed down and refused to deal with that issue. The RCMP coastgaurd or OPP or whatever it was at the time would show the news anchors the bullet holes in the side of their boat. When Oka went down, it became a world news story and political issue with law suits threatened from Americans from the wacko libs.

The rersult was the Canadian gov't LOWERING taxes on tobacco and ciggarette packs went from $9 to $3.50 almost over night.

Anyone remember that?

The natives lost in the end, but did they? They got the gov't to finally did something no one though possible, they lowered tobacoo taxes and cowered out.

The gov't will continue to cower out. Now it's just a matter of continually paying these people off.

And who do you have to blame?

YOURSELF.

YOU are a lefty lib who likes to put minorities up on pedistals like their somehow better than us. You are all for groups just like natives (but with turbans) completely segregating themselves and taking advantage of us.

Well the natives are no different than immigrants. Both claiming special status and minority status with their palms out and given special advantages.

And You sir, support that idealism.

Honestly, and left wing person on this forum has NO RIGHT to complain about natives.

[kengs333]

You don't even know what you're talking about.

[guyser]

Yes and you can say the same about immigrants.blah blah blah blah.....and so on....more blah blah blah

Honestly, and left wing person on this forum has NO RIGHT to complain about natives.

And since you dont vote you have zero credibility on all matters of political discussion.

The average immigrant far exceeds any contribution to this country than you do.

[Rue]

That's true; I didn't think of that.

No but you clearly are someone who takes the time to try find out about our history and constitution. I commend you for that in your comments.

[Michael Hardner]

The rersult was the Canadian gov't LOWERING taxes on tobacco and ciggarette packs went from $9 to $3.50 almost over night.

MD,

Yet another wrong fact from you. The time frame from Oka to tobacco tax law changes was 1990 to 1994.

There are some good points here, though, from right and left.

Argus is correct - we shouldn't overstate the effect of high profile scandals. Also, although statistics may show us a problem, they don't tell us the root cause.

[gc1765]

To suggest it indicates serious socio-economic problems and failures and the inhumane conditions on reserves would make more sense but no doubt I am sure some of you will see what you want to see.

Well said.

[ScottSA]

QUOTE(Rue @ Oct 16 2007, 12:39 PM)

To suggest it indicates serious socio-economic problems and failures and the inhumane conditions on reserves would make more sense but no doubt I am sure some of you will see what you want to see.

Well said.

It's "well said?" It says nothing. It's a lot of polysyllabic hogswallop that boils down to: "Indians live in poverty." They live in poverty because they won't get jobs and their "chiefs" steal all the money that whitey pays them to help them live in the stoneage with all the comforts of home. They live in poverty in spite of the fact that more cash per capita, by several orders of magnitude, is fed into the maw of IA to try to solve the "socio-economic problems and failures" than to any other social segment of Canadians. The solution lies with Indians, not with the rest of us.

And the irony is that Rue wouldn't accept this nonsense for a moment if it was directed at the condition of the Palestinians.

Edited October 27, 2007 by ScottSA

[Moxie]

One thing that never comes up in Native Discussions is Native Culture is not like ours. Their beliefs and their connection to the land is sacred. It's not feigned or faked, they truely feel a connection to the soil. Their beliefs are entrenched into their spiritual environment. No one ever takes the time to understand their roots,culture and beliefs. Not all natives want to live on reserves and suck the public tit, many work and walk amongst us.

We need to resolve this issue once and for all, we can't undo the harm we did in the past but we must stop enforcing our beliefs when we go to the negotiating table. They do not think as we do, most tribes didn't even have a word for quilty. Twenty years ago a native would be brought before the courts and asked if he was innocent or quilty. How can he respond if their is no native word for quilty. If someone stole from them because of need they accepted that that person needed what they took more than they did. If a native stole for greed they would be banished from the community. There is so much that is beautiful and peaceful in Native Culture but this gets bogged down by steriotypes.

I place most of the blame on the Feds, current and past PMs for failing to investigate the corruption from the band level up to the top. How can we work with the Native Community to fix what's broken when we don't really know what's broken. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that placing septic field on high ground above your water source is stupid. Time after time we evacuate Native Reserves because of their own stupidity. There is equal blame to be laid on white man's side and Native Side. A full house cleaning is needed but no PM todate has had the guts to get rid of the corruption on both sides and innocents suffer as cowards and theives get rich.

Many natives don't trust us, it should be their own people they don't trust. They take from them to live the good life while forty natives live in a one room shack. They need to have an inner revolt to clean house and rebuild and then we can work together to negotiate the treaties our For Fathers Signed.

[kengs333]

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Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[kengs333]

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Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333