Melanie_

Sesame Street is starting it 41st season tomorrow, and they shot some new segments to start the season off. One of them featured Elmo and Katy Perry singing her song “Hot and Cold”, but the Sesame Street execs have pulled it from the show after too many complaints from people who saw it on YouTube. The complaints were mostly about the suitability of her clothes for Sesame Street – do little kids really need to see quite that much of her? Her dress is pretty scanty, and she is playing the role of a child, but in a sexualized way. Anyway, I wondered what people here might think... could this be the beginning of Sexame Street?

Betsy, your understanding of Feminism is stunning. Coupons, make up and hair cuts aren't the first things that pop into my mind when I think about how feminists might go about representing themselves! Although I don't see your plan as workable on many levels (how many devout Muslims do you think will show up at this Conversion Fair of yours?), the biggest problem I have with it is your suggestion that the government get involved in endorsing one religion over another. I know you think desperate times call for desperate measures, but I disagree. Once we start discarding the basic values of our society - individual choice, freedom of religion, seperation of church and state - we change the structure of our society. Maybe the whole thing boils down to a difference in the way we understand democracy. I see it as meaning that each individual is equal to everyone else, and has the same opportunities, rights and freedoms as every other citizen of a country. A democratic society is built on the belief that its citizens are intelligent and free thinking, so government doesn't try to think for them or interfere in their choices, as long as these choices stay within the boundaries of the law.

This is an interesting idea for another thread - books you couldn't bring yourself to finish. The one that sticks out for me is "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil". I remember feeling obligated to finish it, because I had already read 2/3 of it, and then deciding it just wasn't worth my time to continue on with. I never did finish it, but when I was in Savannah a few years later I still made a point of having my picture taken in front of the fountain that is shown on the dust jacket of the book. The fountain was the most interesting thing about the book. A picture of the fountain without me in it

One thing I've always appreciated about you, Betsy, no matter how much we disagree (almost always!), is that you are a good sport. But I still disagree (surprise!). When I read Hirsi Ali's book, Nomad, which is where these views are first stated, I found that she makes a very poor case for conversion of Muslims to Christianity. While she claims it is a viable alternative, everything she says about Islam, and the cohesion of culture, clan and religion, contradicts the idea that someone could simply convert and cope within a different society. She talks so much about the values of extended family, the clans, the sense of belonging to the group, and the sense of alienation that comes when you give up religion. She doesn't attempt to justify conversion on a theological level, just on a practical level, which I think is really disrespectful to both faiths. I may be an atheist, but I have enough respect for those who believe in a god to know religions can't simply be interchanged, discarding one and adopting another as the mood strikes. edited for spelling

Wow, Betsy, take a minute to wipe the spittle off your computer! You are frothing at the mouth. You really aren't taking the time to read or understand what is being said to you. I'm going to try one more time, using point form and very small words so you can follow along. 1. I did not defend Muslims trying to convert Christians. In fact, I clearly stated I would prefer that no one tried to push their religion on anyone else. No one needs a Sky Daddy telling them what to do. What I objected to was your statement that the government should get involved in promoting one religion over another. 2. You are the one who brought Ayaan Hirsi Ali's religion into the debate. You included her religious views in the title of the thread, and in the opening post. To me, that signals that you want to talk about her views on religion, so my comments on her religious views are in line with this thread. 3. You want my view on the mosque in NYC. You've made an assumption about what my position might be, even though I haven't stated anything one way or another. Well, if I am moved to join in the discussion on the other thread, I will, but I'm not discussing it here. You are just trying to deflect this thread, because you can see your original view wasn't very well thought out.

Well, Betsy, even though YOU started the thread, let me refresh YOUR memory. It is about Ayaan Hirsi Ali and her view that Christians should seek to convert Muslims to Christianity, so I do think that discussing her faith is more relevent to this particular thread than the question of the mosque at Ground Zero. There is a very long thread already discussing that topic, so there is no need to bring it in here. As for what I said, how was that muddying the waters? The question was whether or not governments should get involved in suppressing one religion in favour of another, and I pointed out that it was more likely to cause a negative impact than a positive one. Completely relevent to the the discussion. I have to say, this particular quote from you is hilarious, particularly the bit about high drama and hysterics... And, since you seem to be so concerned about Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali converting to Islam, can you tell me how many jihads he has participated in since his conversion? Can you give some examples of how he is a threat to modern America?

Sure people have converted from Christianity to Islam. And people have converted from Islam to Christianity. But I didn't say Christians shouldn't proselytyze, I said governments shouldn't be promoting one religion over another. My personal belief is no one should proselytyze - keep your Invisible Sky Pixies to yourselves. As for the mosque question, there is a thread 182 pages long discussing that. Lets not muddy the waters here.

Cassius Clay? You're dredging up an example from what - 50 years ago? And we should all be up in arms over that? Come on, Betsy, thats just laughable.

From what I've read of Hirsi Ali's work, she has very little respect for people who follow any religion. Her perspective is that simple people who need the crutch of religion might turn to Christianity from Islam, but what she's really saying is she doesn't think they are smart enough to be atheists. Her attitude is very condescending towards anyone of faith.

Betsy, this is wild eyed fear mongering. You aren't going to nullify Islam by trying to convert Muslims to Christianity - its more likely you are going to confirm their belief that the West wants to end their way of life. Your plan is just going to create more problems. You need to check your understanding of "democratic freedom" - actively trying to squash one religion and proseletyzing for another doesn't sound very democratic to me!

I lead a sheltered life... sado-masochism hadn't occured to me. Maybe someone out there has a better understanding of the Criminal Code, but I think that, even with consent, no one can do bodily harm to someone else with impunity.

If a woman receives corporal punishment, a crime has been committed - it is against the law for anyone to abuse anyone else (except children between the ages of 2 and 12 - they are the only people that can legally be hit in Canada - but that is for another thread). If Sharia law doesn't contravene Canadian law, fine, but once it crosses the line of the Criminal Code of Canada, it is no longer valid.

I recently read In Search of April Raintree, which is required reading in Winnipeg high schools - its the story of two Metis sisters growing up in the foster care system in Manitoba, and how their lives unfold. Some parts stretch the imagination just a bit, but it definitely gives the flavour of racism that was, and is, part of Winnipeg. The Passage, by Justin Cronin - vampires are the bad guys again! A military experiment gone wrong basically causes the Apocalypse, and the survivors try to carry on - look for several sequels. I really enjoyed it as a summer read. Half the sky: Turning oppression into opportunity for women worldwide - written by two Pulitzer Prize winners, a fascinating look at the reslience of women who have gone through more than most of us can fathom. And, just for fun, Joe Abercrombie's trilogy, The blade itself, Before they are hanged, and Last argument of kings. There are no clear cut heroes here, you never really know who to root for, and you have to just go along for the ride, but these are fun books to read.

Jumping in... What you seem to be saying is that someone's style of dress determines whether or not they are capable of doing a particular job. Really? What ever happened to judging someone on their abilities? Attitudes like yours are why affirmative action was implemented in the first place.

I agree, Dre. It would be helpful if people understood religions a bit better, rather than believing what the media says (usually sensationalized). It would also help them understand the role religion has played in forming various societies, and how it continues to influence even secular societies in subtle and not so subtle ways today. I'd also like this class to explore what it means to be atheist, humanist, agnostic.... I don't really have a problem with the fact that they seperated the girls and boys here. If we want children to see an honest portrayal of any religion, we have to show it to them as it is. In Islam, men and women worship seperately... that doesn't change for a school field trip. Many people might not like that aspect of Islam, but not liking it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Betsy, are you really suggesting that the government get involved in promoting one religion over another? That the government start providing incentives for Muslims to consider another religion? We have a seperation of church and state in this country for a reason - that all religions be given equal treatment before the law. And what "other religions" are you prepared to welcome into this scheme? What do you know about their beliefs, and how they compare with the beliefs of Islam? As for your original post, Hirsi Ali herself has not converted to Christianity. She is an atheist - therefore, she has no credibility in saying Muslims should convert to Christianity.

I'm late to the thread, but here's my 2 cents anyway... I loved Gone With the Wind, the book and the movie (although I have always been bitter that I'm Melanie and not Scarlet). There's been some really good discussion about the historical context of the movie here, and the need to see a society as it was, rather than as we wish it had been, so I'll leave it at that. The movie I've always found long, boring, and highly overrated is The English Patient. How anyone ever sat through that movie without falling asleep is beyond me, and yet it won an Oscar.

For those wondering why Haiti has so many challenges, has the answer. Apparently they made a pact with the devil 200 years ago, and Satan helped them to get out from under the heel of the French...

better late than never... Beer

Actually, parliament is a product of the monarchy, rather than the reverse as you have stated here. England's parliament came about as a result of the Magna Carta, in King John's time, as a way for the barons to have input into the decisions made by the king. History of England's parliament I'm not particularly tied to the idea of the monarchy in Canada, but if you are going to advocate getting rid of it, you really should do your homework first.

Its also a fact that there hasn't been a visit from Chinese authorities in the same length of time. According to the Globe and Mail, the last time the Chinese president visited Canada was in September of 2005. The government of China is still angry that Canada gave the Dalai Lama honorary citizenship, so they are looking for ways to publicly shame Canada. Too bad for them, their shame is far more apparent to the international community than ours is.

MG, would you mind summarizing what you found most thought provoking about this lecture? Its over an hour and a half long, so more detail on the specific points you would like to discuss would be helpful.

Yes, but the real pearl in this post was the "Statue of Westminister". And Whowhere, Queen Elizabeth's father did not abdicate the throne. Her uncle, Edward VIII, abdicated, which elevated her father, George VI, to the throne.

Headline in the Winnipeg Sun: Tiger is a Cheetah!

Wulf - how will banning minarets combat radical Muslims, while leaving the peaceful ones alone? Is all radicalism originating in those minarets - has there been some connection between minarets and terrorism? Is there a reason to specifically target minarets, or do you think they were randomly chosen among possible Islamic symbols? What will be the next symbol chosen to ban, in the name of combatting radical Islam? Wulf suggested that Canada should follow suit with this law, and others have made the point that this kind of thing happens elsewhere already. Yes, many Islamic countries don't allow Christian symbols, but that doesn't mean we should emulate them. Lets hold ourselves to a higher standard than saying, "well, they don't support freedom of religion, so why should we?" Our values don't have to be based on a tit for tat response to values we don't agree with in the first place.