Army Guy

I think there is some confusion as to the rule of law, here in Canada in the civilian world we do have laws that dictate that every measure should be taken to save a life... However in the rules of war, the primary goal is the "mission itself" example, Normandy beach landings orders were given "every soldiers first and primary goal or mission was to take ground, engage the enemy until thier defences were combat ineffective. To bypass all wounded which would be left for follow up forces....meaning if your buddy got shot you were to carry on with the mission...this included enemy soldiers as well... In this case the Capt informed his superiors of his situation, which included a medical assetment of the wounded enemy soldier.....he was told to carry on with the mission, that medivac operation would comprise the mission, attract more enemy soldiers, a situation they did not want with green Afghan soldiers...The enemy soldier was given basic first aid, however his wounds required alot more than basic first aid... The Capt very famliar with pain and suffering thought these orders to be cruel, and he thought he was provided some humanity by ending his suffering.... Don't think for a second, there is any virture or law as we know it in War...everything we know as morals and values , or laws as we take for granted today are thrown out the window, and the longer any person is placed in those conditions the worse it becomes...until that world of war becomes normal, and our world as once knew it... becomes foreign, or unnatural....

To be found guilty of murder you need the evidence to prove that, in this case no body, no ballistics, just one soldiers word agai'st another that it did happen....hence why the he was found not guilty of murder, That being said, he was found guilty of disgraceful conduct, reduced in rank , and released from the forces with a dishonorable discharge...all this is pending an appeal....Military always has a caveat built into thier law system, you may get off with the actual crime, however there are a seris of charges that are much harder to get off, they carry much lighter sentences . In this case disgraceful conduct.

The army is not trying to justify anything, he was found not guilty of murder becuase of the lack of evidence, unless your courts work different where your from, in regular courts of law, they are bound by the law and evidence.....according to the law he should have just left him , to die a painful death...devoid of all compasion, and humanity....shit we can put an animal out of there misery to keep it from suffering, but we can't do that for a fellow human being fair enough it is the law..... I think we are fine, after all it was a fellow Canadian soldier who questioned the Capts actions, and brought it up the chain of command ....who actioned it without delay, bringing him up on charges and launching an investagation.....upholding those very morals and values you say we have lost....As far as Anti social behaviors anyone who has studied war, will tell you anything that is anti social /criminal is in one form or another involved with war....if it was'nt then there would be no such thing as PTSD or mental illness our soldiers suffer from when becoming involved in war....and as far as getting rid of war itself it's not going to happen anytime soon, as long as there is man we will have war....and yet civilization still moves forward, man is still on top of the food chain....so much for that theory...

This whole topic is a source of some major discusions within the Military itself, Alot of soldiers believe what the Capt done was totally "unjustified", which it was according to our laws, genva conventions, and inter national law...and alot believe it was justified, and an act of kindness... The current rules are written to protect the wounded , and are there for good reason, to ensure other soldiers do not exicute the wounded and use the excuse well they were going to die anyways...there is always a but to every situation, at what piont do we stop being killing machines and apply some compasion to our enemies...in this case, the mission came first, meaning there would be no medi vac, nor was there anything that could be done to save this terrorist on the ground...the law says provide basic first aid, and leave them in place, allowing them to die on their on accord...his wounds however were very painful, and in this situation i can not say what i would do, never been in that situation. His sentence reflects that, there was not enough evidence to convict him of murder, but there was enough evidence to hand out his current sentence which was disgraceful conduct, in which he will be stripped of his rank, and dishonorable discharged from the military. he is not waiting on an appeal. As for putting our wounded in danger, there is that chance, however unlikely in Afghanistan, as we rarely operate in areas that cannot quickly be reinforced by more troops very quickly....meaning the orginal group would have to fight to the last man before it could happen....we always operate in large numbers for that reason and to avoid anyone getting captured.

WOW, where is it that you get your info from, i would really like to know if any of you guys have meet a Soldier, Airmen, or Navy person and if so how many have you talked to 1,10,20, 50 more....I mean you've painted all 60,000 plus regular force pers, and over 25,000 reserve force Canadians serving their country with the same brush..... According to you guys the Armed Forces is full of killers, a home for Macho boys, programed to do nothing but kill on command and yet DND has approx 160 different trades or jobs available, and only a small percentage of them have anything to do with combat...It sounds like to me you know nothing of what your talking about, or have forgotten what services they do provide this country 365 days a year, 24 hours a day....nothing mentioned about Search and rescue, on land or sea, nothing about our navy and Airforce performing fisheries patrols, drug interceptions, assisting imigration, lets not mention inter national aid such as our dart teams, or deliverying our countries assistance to some 3 rd world country....rescueing Canadian citizens from a war torn country... Shit lets not even mentioned it was soldiers that built that peace keeping myth you so conviently throw back in our faces.....not to mention domestic operations such as OKA, Winipeg floods, ICE storm, and lately the Huricane that hit NFLD.... yes this was all done by mindless robots killers ,that where once known as Canadian citizens....and this ladies is just the tip of the iceburg.... As a soldier i would hope that Canadians would atleast know what we do, in their name....and yet you have proven me wrong once again....i hope your as well versed on the other topics you've commented on, as you've been here, try and not talk out you ass, but rather use your head and think of well informed debating posts. Your basing your opinion on a sporting event...come on, and a officer sporting event at that....ever been to junior hockey game when scouts are visting....guess not...lets all remember what it is that we and i mean Canadians ask these guys to do for a living...it's not handing out blankets and teddy bears...they are the final tool left in the toolbox when political diplomacy breaks down...Do you want your warriors to be nice and passive, or do you want them to be alittle rough around the edges, so when the going gets tough you can sleep at night knowing you can count on them. I'm not going to make excuses for the above acts or crimes commited by armed forces personal while serving the forces, what i can comment on is the forces does not tolerate any of these acts, proven by the fact that once charged in most serious cases these individuals are released from their duties and stripped of their uniforms. In the other cases DND has ensured these people get the help they need, to over come their shortfalls... Lets remember these Canadians are picked out of every social network across Canada, from every city, town, or village across the nation, the forces represents a cross section of what makes us a country. If we are a joke or and international embarrassment then we as a nation must own that, becuase that is who we are...Some how i don't think that is the case. But speaking as a soldier, we are not supermen , but made up of average Canadians just like you...well i should say well informed Canadians....we do a job that not many people want, or just don't have the balls to do...we are a group of doer's, and thinkers, we are the same type of people when faced with a Vimy ridge overcame any obsticle that came our way...we make up the largest group recorded in our colorful history some of it bad, most of it good...we have contributed more than any other group in building this country we have today..... and yet we still have people like you who think the marshall class are mindless robots programed to kill on order, have nothing to contribute to our nation, or a place in history...and yet most Canadians would be hard pressed to not find anyone in their family history that has not donned a uniform , has not served their nation....and for this service we paint them all with the same brush, call them mindless robots, a joke, an inter national embarrassment..... Todays Canadian Military has earned the respect of every nation we have fought beside, including those we have taken up arms again'st. and when things get tough and the shit starts flying it is the Canadians that are asked if they can take on the task...That comes with a price our nations soldiers have paid for in full with blood, sweat, and tears....you did'nt give it to them, it was'nt paid for by you, it was earned by those you slag today...A joke, inter national embarrassment, hardly....perhaps it's time all of you do some research...

Now your confusing the real world with the world of war, TCCC trained soldiers are trained for most battlefield medical procedures, granted they are not MD's but perhaps a few steps down the ladder, that and they've seen combat, and it's effects, seeing someone shreded by a 30 mm cannon well you don't need an MD to know that guys toast ...Omar was shot by a 5.56mm rifle round, if you've seen the pictures you'll know that the exit wound is approx 3 to 4 in in dia....it is very rare for a 30mm to leave an exit wound, because of it's size and the human body is just not big enough in other words the exit wound would be some what large in excess of 30 to 40 in's in dia... The guy that survived the IED was a special case, and a very motivated individual, who was a medic to start with. that being said i get your piont. But these guys had seen enough wounds and death to know this guy was not long for this world.

Capt Semrau did make that radio call back to HQ, he advised them of his situation on the ground,and about the wounded terrorist, he asked what should his next step be...He was ordered to carry on with the mission, to leave the wounded terrorist...That is in Capt Semraus statement and the Col's (from HQ) statement... Everything changes when in Combat, every soldiers recieves a first aid course, advanced first aid which includes CPR, and 1 man out of 8 normally recieves TCCC course which includes everything else including minor surgery...But here is where WAR changes the rules, "The Mission always comes first", when it comes to treating wounded "any wounded" including our own, the mission must not be jepordized, or comprised, .....treatment of enemy wounded follow the same orders, the wounded man was assesed and deemed he was going to die, in short order, it does not take long to bleed out, with those kinds of wounds....lets also keep in mind he was engaged by a US APPACHE and it's 30 mm cannon...thats a bullet bigger than a large mans thumb in dia, at this size it does not even have to strike flesh to shred it, but just come close....not many survive any wound from a 30mm even if a surgeon was there when he was shot.... In this case Capt Semrau was ordered to leave the terrorist behind, as sending in a Medivac helo would have given their postion away, and comprised the mission...That being said, if the situation allows then every measure is offered and given including a ride back to higher medical care...in this case the situation did not allow for any treatment... After all they were in a terrorist controled area, the engagement alone would have attracted taliban for miles around in large numbers, lets not forget that Capt Semrau was mentoring a group of Afghanis soldiers, which means they are not of the same caliber as the mentors, it means they where somewhat green...not something you want to get caught with in the bad guys back yard when they outnumber you... I agree with you, it was not the best course of action that could of been taken..., in fact it goes again'st all our ethical, genva conventions, inter national laws we are forced to learn,everything we are taught by the book this action goes again'st... That all being said some soldiers do make pacts with other soldiers that if they are critically wounded, or loss arms and legs that a coup de grace be performed...putting a soldier out of his misery....is an unwritten pact, sort of gentlemens agreement....I've never seen or heard of any Canadian soldier been shot in this matter, Now i've heard a few asking or begging to be shot, because of the extreme pain, ...but i've never seen anyone carry it out...this practice is normally left with our spec ops guys operating well beyound enemy lines.... I know this is hard to wrap your mind around , most are screaming this is wrong, end of story....But soldiers that are constantly outside of the wire, most have resigned themselfs that death is a huge part of what we do, they have resigned themselfs that death will touch them or someone they are close to during a tour....so asking someone to end your pain and suffering is not an out to lunch request...it comes with a deep respect, or bond that developoes between soldiers... And while i have no love for any taliban terrorist, they do have my respect, and leaving a man behind just to bleed out and die of his wounds in pain would wiegh heavily on me...would i have shot him...given him an overdose of morphine,i can't say i've never been it that situation...

Are you saying that the Army, navy, Airforce Cadets and scouting organization don't teach our children marshall skills....and while not terrorist camps, they are introducing our kids into learning military type skills....how many of them have made the front page news by blowing something up, shooting anyone....

I've stated facts not claims unless you can prove other wise....Not more tapes....but the orginal tape that was found, i assumed you watched it, i mean it is available in a English version as well on almost every web site that carries the Omar story , He mentions killing NATO soldiers for bounty during the portion where him and his merry gang were planting IED's at night..

Bullshit, let me ask you this Eyeball ever get a spanking when you were a kid, well according to the UN diffination of torture that is considered torture,along with dozens of things our parnets did to us that was considered quit normal for that time....using that excuse is just that, an excuse.... ....and yet you turned out to be somewhat normal....fisherman i believe...ever thought of killing muslims, or for that matter any other race....why is that because in our culture that is wrong...but in his culture it is right and normal.... And by using this "i was abused as a child" excuse with omar it will open the door to others, a flood of others....it is a western legal ploy to get guilty persons off.... It's not a Canadian value or tradition, so it's a mout piont.... Hyberbole really , it is exactly what you have been doing all along...."let him go", "release him", and yet he has not even finished his trial....Also i'm looking at over 82,000 goggle sites right now that criminals have tried to reduce or get of charges all because they had a rough childhood.....so they are in fact saying little billy, deserves to get off because it was his childhood that drove him into murder, bullshit.... Omar is not a robot, he is a free thinking individual, he was not held again'st his will, nor did he ever openly say i don't want to do this anymore, nor did he try and escape from his situation....he displayed his free thinking abilities at a very young age when his mother tried to get him and his brothers to voluteer to be bombers....and yet they knew at this time it was wrong...that death awaiting them regardless of what religous crap had been pounded into thier heads.....they knew because they had seen it... No he was'nt he was raised a terrorist, soldiers have sworn alligence to nations, and fight under flags...they follow rules of engagements and the genva conventions...OMAR did none of those... As far as it being again'st the law , another myth, here in Canada we have organizations that teach our young people to be soldiers as well, organizations such as the scouting network, and army, navy, and air Cadets..... Just so i'm clear, it's OK to kill these combatants on the battlefield...but not charge them with any crimes....is that messed up or what....we can shot them , but not charge them or lock them up... Is that what we are doing here making the world safer for Canada's little kids....while this kid is charged with murder, i wonder if Sgt Speer had children of his own.....but screw him he was a soldier, he knew the risks ....poor Omar he did'nt know a damn thing...he was only 15, lets just take a look at what he did know...he was a active member of a terrorist group, he made and planted IED's, he took part in a fire fight which killed 1 US servicemen, and 4 Afghanis soldiers, he gather intel on NATO convoys and there routes.....he made a tape in which he expresses his will to kill as many NATO soldiers as possiable.... Slagging him....all i want is for him to face justice, to serve his time, recieve the help you think he needs then deported back to Afganistan to face justice over there.....no more no less...just like any other Canadian is expected to, and does do...and if we don't follow this through the next 15 old boy that speaks english over in Afghanistan will simply be left to bleed out over there,with no media coverage, no debate, no tears, no nothing because apparently that is legal.

So tell us, is there any evidence that Omar was force into his life, that he did not want to be a member of a terrorist group, that once in he made attempts to leave, did he even vioce his discontent with others....I mean he is very clear in his home made tape, he wanted to kill american soldiers, he wanted to collect the bounty on any dead NATO soldier....sounds like i guy was forced into his life to me.... I agree, proper trail and proper sentences that reflect the crimes he has commited....no more no less...

F***K you OLEG and the arm chair you rode in on, what gives you the right to judge anyone, you've claimed you've spent more than your share of court preceedings is wanting justice to much to ask.....i guess so ....ya he's was kid at the time of his crimes, lots of Canadian kids are given adult sentences, when was the last time they recieved 1/10 the coverage as Omar and his terrorist family....when was the last time you posted anything in their defence...when was the last time anyone here posted anything in their defence... Shit the terrorists in Afghan employ thousands of kids...But me wanting to kick the shit out some 15 year old makes me a spiteful coward....him gathering intel ,planting IED's, engaging NATO forces in a fire fight thats OK.... Working for an oganization that forces 5 year old boys to don a explosive vest and peddle they're bike towards a Canadian check piont is OK...they routinely cut the hands off little girls for going to school, Strip an old man of all his skin and stake him to the ground to be cooked in the days sun for talking to Canadian soldiers ....yes sir these are some of the mild things they have accomplished in their rein of terror .....are these are things we should turn the other cheek for....these are things we should forget and forgive because the little bastards were only 15 years old....Sorry i'm not ready to do that....what i'm ready for is for him to face justice, serve his time, so we can all move along. As far as taking on the American bussiness elite, ...I'm afraid it was'nt them that drove those planes into those buildings....no sir that was your terrorist buddies....they threw down the gauntlet we just picked it up and slapped them with it...

Really i did'nt see that caveat in the justice act....It does say they should be held accountable for their actions, that they may face adult sentences, but the primary concern should be treatment....but no where did it say, abusive upbringing gets you a free pass....Nor does it say the parents should be held responsable for their role in this affair....as far as i know they are still in Canada living the good life feeding off our tax dollars.... Beside we both know this excuse has been used so many times, in fact almost every criminal has used it at one time or another , my mother beat me, my dad was a drinker, i grew up in a tough neiborhood....so it should be OK for me to act this way, it should be OK to take another life..... Abusive to whom you and me, abusive in regards to their culture....this type of behavoir is typical in their culture in fact it is expected....Do we let them all get a free pass becuase of how they where raised....i mean is age the only reason we are pausing here, Omar brothers where adults, his comrads were adults do they get a free pass....or just Omar, becuase he was a child with a rough upbringing... Everyday Canadian kids raised in Canada with Canadian morals and values are tried and given adult sentences everyday.serious crimes need serious sntences to prevent them from happening again....

So the fact he is being detained Canadian has nothing to do with it, just the fact he was a minor.... And yet kids as young as 14 can recieve adult sentences for serious crimes My linkmapleleafweb.com/features/ Under Overview of the Youth Criminal Justice Act section of the article.

Is it an attempt to minimalize it, or is it a question, why has Canadians chosen Omar as there poster child out of the thousand Canadians currently held in detention, some of which are suffering worse conditions and treatment than our Omar.... Glad that is cleared up ....

OK we all get it is a Ukrainian owns the company....One that is still dependant on a decision made long ago ......During the cold war Soviet industrial strategy that split military production between different regions of the USSR. This distribution minimized potential war loss risks. The Antonov company lacks facilities for full construction of some aircraft, As a result, Antonov airplanes were often constructed by aerospace companies in Kharkiv (Ukraine), Novosibirsk (Russia), and Tashkent (Uzbekistan). All this was in reply to your comment do your research....Russia is irrelevant in the matter since Antonov is an Ukranian company... When in fact Russia plays a large part in the production of AN-124. infact they can not produce them without Russia's involvement... They are totally different aircraft, with different specs, ratings, and operational focus, the civilian versions are export versions.....Funney how you forgot to mention that Russia has a long practice of producing 2 versions of everything, one for mother Russia, and a dumbed down version or export version.... the Orginal AN-124 was designed for the Russian military any Aircraft produced after this ARE civilian versions, those that the US airforce has contracted out have been civilian versions.... Perhaps you should read my quote again....The only nation operating the military version of the AN-124 is Russia...And most of those are in long term storage or in unflyable condition.....I made no mention of the Civilain versions like those operating in Libya or UAE, or even the UK. Acually that reason is number 3 on the list, check out the link below, (not from WIKKI) you'll find it in ANN A Page 10/20 Para 2 System operation,missions and Scenarios DND orginal SOA My linkhttp://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat-smamat/documents/acps-sor-eng.pdf I think you find that limk above the DND statement of operational requirement will also answer some of these statements you've made as well. I'd need to see a link that says the US airforce does not like the C-5, when in fact they are doing a mid life rebuild on most of them now as we speak, or why they are going to be in service for the next 15 to 20 years....for something they count on to move bulk equipment and the time they plan on keeping them around how could they not like them.... The reason they built the C-17....come on cut us some slack....perhaps it's time you did some research...the orginal designs for the C-17 was born out of the need to replace the C-141, and to replace some of the capibilities lost with the retirement of some of the first C-5's.....in fact the Airforce has a project looking at finding a C-5 replacement but it is not a priority project. As for the C-17 being obsolete, your crazy...production lines will stay open until there is no further orders...rumours about closure having been going on for years...and just before the deadline hits more orders come in....the US airforce is not done with this aircraft just yet.... Yes they did, to replace their older F-18's and thier EA-6B aircraft ( which are close to 30 years old) that and the fact that the F-35N ( navy) has not gone into production, what else were they suppose to do....Unlike Canada they the US Navy has the funds to purchase multi airframes we don't instead we crunch as many types into one airframe as we can, every 20 to 25 years.... Could you please provide a link, becuae Janes which is a pretty reliable military intel source still is reporting that Russia is looking at a new purchase of updated AN-124 but has yet to sign any contracts, and it also stated it was looking at 24 aircraft not 60. To replace it's existing fleet of An-124 which are either in storeage or unserviceable....Not saying your source is incorrect i'd just like to read it. While the west have warmed up to Russia, don't be fooled into think they are our friends....they are still a considered a threat within NATO, or perhaps you can explain why NATO spends so much time and assets keeping an eye on what they are up to... But like i explained to you already Russia tends to sell alot of it's export equipment to other countries that are higher on the threat list, countries like Iran, old Iraq, libya, Syria, most African countries that NATO may or may not have engagements with in the future, western forces are getting better at preventing Blue on Blue engagements but they still happen, now mix in the same type of equipment that our enemies are using and your looking for a an accident waiting to happen.....bad enough you have to worry about the bad guys but when you have to watch out for the good guys as well...that one fact only is worth purchasing western made equipment only.... One source, i'm sure you could find many more that don't agree with everything about this contract, shit within every large organization you'll find alot of people who disagree with the policies or decisions that are made....but what you've been unable to do is provide a aircraft that is a gen 5 aircraft that meets all the specs DND has laided down....Sure you've laid out many gen 3 aircraft, even some gen 2 aircraft like the A-10....which is not even the same type we need or want, but they do not meet the specs.....and in 25 years (because historically thats how long we keep them )what will we have....another aircraft that can not do it's primary function....Shit in kosvo (and that was how long ago)it was restricted to providing CAP, because we lacked the ability to drop smart wpns....yes we could drop dumb bombs but really so can a herc.... It stops when our government decides to stop sending us on missions that we are not prepared for...it stops when Canadian soldiers stop coming home in bags due to old, or useless equipment, something the Canadian government and it's people have control over.... Really you mean the same aircraft type that nearly destroyed 2 full companies of RCR's in a freindly fire incident....had this aircraft had all the bells and whistles of a newer generation aircraft,with Friend or foe ground capability this may of never happened..... If it's money your interested in shit why not just stick to the herc like the argies did in the falklands kicking bombs out the back ....it's cheaper, and is multi purpose.... A f-35 can drop a smaller but more acurate wpn, which translate into more enemy dead, less colateral damage, less friendly fire incidents.....

The company is named after Oleg Antonov, its founder and head designer of An-2, An-24, An-22 and other legendary planes. The Antonov company lacks facilities for full construction of some aircraft, a result of Soviet industrial strategy that split military production between different regions of the USSR. This distribution minimized potential war loss risks. As a result, Antonov airplanes were often constructed by aerospace companies in Kharkiv (Ukraine), Novosibirsk (Russia), and Tashkent (Uzbekistan). My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov According to the above link Russia does play a large role in Antonov and the production of the AN-124 Wilber is right the only nation operating a military version of the AN-124 is Russia, all the other nations operate a civilian version. It should also be noted that most of those are in long term storage, or in unflyable condition... The 100 and the 210 versions where produced for civilian companies, and operated around the globe including serveral in Britian.... I think this question has already been asked why are we comparing the C-17 with the AN -124...kind of like comparing a pick-up truck with a semi.....perhaps the II-76 would have been a better chioce or if your stuck on the AN-124 perhaps a aircraft atleast in the same class such as the C-5. Atleast with the II-76MF or TF the facts line up alot better....all that being said neither are in production....the AN-124 is being looked at by the Russian Airforce but as of today no contracts have been signed.... Perhaps that had alot to do with the US government not willing to export them at the time.... Parts are a big deal, and while it is true you can get parts around the globe in 24 hours....the real question is are they willing to sell them to you, with the political will changing every 5 mins....I'm sure if the the US had made a big deal out of the gorgian conflict do you think Mother Russia would be willing to supply parts to other NATO countries.... Even with the old cold war days long behind us, there still remains the fact that Russia still supplies most of our potential enemies with russia built equipment.....thats a problem when you enter a conflict and everyone has the same toys.....Hence why most western armies tend to stay with western products....to avoid confusion on any battle field....Combine that with the parts issue, then add to the inferior product and workmenship and that pretty much sums up why Russian equipment is avoided..... So that narrows down the field awhole lot when dealing with the C-17 as being the best aircraft on the market , at the time.... What the public sees is what the Media protrays....DND is wasting your tax dollars and purchsing wontonly, equipment that according to you we will never use.....IF you read up on the F-35 purchase and all the process DND went through before a contract was even signed it might put your mind at ease....a lot of these articles are available in the Canadian military journal, which is available on line to everyone.... It's not being purchased solely becuase of those nasty russian bear aircraft....there are many reasons, one of them is the uncertianity of what our government is going to task our military with next, we still have agreements with our allieds that may see Canada in a high intensity war which these aircraft will excell ....and while dropping bombs on a few insurgents seems like a waste of money to you....to a grunt like me having an aircraft that can put wpns down a terrorist pants is well worth the money....

Thats not true at all, after 9/11 you'd be hard pressed to find a Canadian that did not support the Afghan mission, I remember boarding the plane on my first ROTO, the mission was still fresh, , i remember looking back just as i steped on the plane, seeing the hundrds of civilians outside the fence line cheering us on , carrying signs which read, kick some ass,ETC, ETC ....shit even our media was on board, NO sir the majority of Canadians wanted us thier , and supported this mission to it's fullest.... Why would'nt we the Majority of Canadians wanted this, it was right, and we where going to be the instrument our nation had chosen to exact a punshment from the Taliban and the rest of those terrorist thugs....Lets not forget, our governmant could not send us to any where without the support of the people....Canadians sent us to Afghan ....anything else is a lie...

Here is more info on the topic, My linkwww.forces.gc.ca/site/

And while i do agree that you as an individual have that right, and i appluad your conviction to stand up for what you believe in, even if it means your death ...i think that is where it stops.... I'm sure that the majority of the others that would be effected in this situation would have another opinion...i think they would agree with you that torture is bad...but in this case they would agree to have it done.

We both know we can "what if" this situation to death, when you boil it down to the last grain, it comes down to what price are you willing to pay and what results are you expecting...... In this case the price is thousands of inocent people who also have rights and freedoms and expectations that their government is going to do everything it can to protect them....but that is the problem where do we draw the line in what we expect our government to do in protecting the majority, and everyone has different expectations of that.... Here is problem i have with your answer. The state asks us to accomplish alot of tasks that make us uncomfortable or forces us all to rethink our values and morals, in this case the state has asked you to extract information via torture, which we all know will casue this person some extreme pain....we know this to be wrong and goes again'st everything we have been taught what we hold near and dear to our hearts, which makes us who we are....So torture is bad....we spit on torture.... And yet, our state in times of war or during policing operations in our cities has charged people with there protection, have given them permision to take a life, police do it with a pistol, occasional a rifle, we percieve this to be tradgic but good, hand out accomindations, hold public cerimonies for bravery....we know taking another life is also bad, but in some circumstances it's good.... during war we kill with every known wpn we can get our hands on, from helemt and bayonet, to napalm to ICBM....kill those bastards, and the more the better , and larger the parade.....we except this actions as normal...appauld them...shit hand out medels.....but mention torture, people puke, convulse ....either way we are killing , causing severe pain, degrading , humilating....people....it's war and war is evil not just parts of it but the whole damn thing...... don't tell me they are different , because without war there would be no need to torture for info....don't tell me civilized people don't torture, becasue thats a crock, i can drop a load of naplam onto your family and and get a medal....but i can't ask a question while doing it....OK i seem a little jaded, it's true i am. I've seen to many conflicts, and the results they have....can we honstly say we are better people for not torturing, when the list of things we accomplish in war are much worse.... Today we as a nation demand an inquiry because a prisoner was roughed up during transport off the battle field....we demand an inquiry when a prisoner complains he was beaten, in his cell....and yet who demands an inquiry when 4 Canadian soldiers shoot a 6 year old boy on a bike with a bomb strapped to his chest....who demands an inquiry when a soldier disembowels an enemy boy of 12 or 13, with a bayonet in close quater combat....Calling in an arty strike on a village full of enemy combatants and civilians....Yes i get it.... actions of war , expected of a soldier.....i get it....but please explain to me the difference between these actions....and some one torturing to retrieve info......Why do we spit on one and throw a parade for the other....So really are we more civilized, do we have a higher sense of being than the bad guys.....do we deserve that higher sense of belief that i'd rather kill thousands than torure just one.... Sorry Peter did not mean to rant , just having a few issues, with this topic....

You guys even read the article, because i know you don't fully understand it , judging by your comments above.... It was allegations from a member of the JTF again'st another member of the unit....it was investagated and NO charges were laid...."meaning nothing wrong here move along" it was reported and it was investagated and nothing was found.... Here is what a DND officer said in referance the whole event..... meaning NOTHING was done that could damage the reputation of the Forces....NO conspiracy here, NO laws broken, no Inter national or conventions either....Once again nothing reported here move along..... Holy shit, they even break it down for us....It mentions nothing of prisoners, detainees, illigal activities , drug smuggling....BUT was focusing on broader adminstrative and NON criminal aspects of the sand trap inquiry..... DID that get confusing somehow ? And here it says it's not part of a different investagation into the transfer of detainees In fact it does not say what the investagation was really about, but the Maj does piont you to what it is not about..... It is about seeing if the admin policies used during the first investagation are surfice or will hold up once again....no conspiracy, no somolia inquiries, no one getting thrown under a bus, no detainees ....no abuse scandles...just a bunch of clerks making sure the current system is working ....I guess we can call off the code red....everyone back out of the bunkers....and someone turn that damn alarm off....

Has'nt that already been played out on the seris 24....as unlikely as this situation is lets add alittle reality to it.....Lets just assume that we did not act on the info because we were all being good citizens with good moral fiber, champions of human rights, super heros of the west and protectors of the little guy..... ....The crude nuk device does go off, and evaporates a 25 block raduis of the downtown core of any large Canadian city, Heat, and blast damage destroyed another 50 block raduis , well over 200,000 dead, with triple that wounded...and 10 times that effected by radition piosoning....most of the serious wounded will die of their wounds as our ability to delivery medical aid has been over come by the sheer numbers....Cas numbers would be unlike anything we've seen todate... Our abilty to respond in any matter has been overwhelmed, our police, fire fighters EMS,and military, all over come, even the US military would be over come in this situation as radition clouds drift towards their own borders....what you now have is mass uncontrolable panick which would quickly spread across vast areas of Canada as the masses of refugees flee the effected areas, with no real shelter, or food to provide them , social order will begin to break down...more will die in the violence... SO lets add it up shall we, lets just say for agument sake we have done some investagation, after we recieved the info from our torture victim.....and there is a good proablity ,they do know something.... So we have a Canadian citizen who more than likely knows something but we are not sure, what we do know is that person has failed to do anything about it, failed to warn anyone or anything ....he has left those that will be effected to thier own fate....that means you and your family..... So do we as a nation protect every right he has been given by our nation,laws, and treaties....knowing that this event would rock the very foundation of our nation...it would test even our world renouned GOOD WILL, and Canadian friendly nature.....or do we take a chance on preventing it all and hook his balls up to the nearest wall socket.... and lets just say for argument sake you and your family live just outside the blast raduis.... What is that you said, "which wire do i attach first" The red one.....But i get to ask the questions....Don't worry everyone will get a chance.... Mt piont is this for the most part we do try and live up to our good global standing...but there comes a time when you have to stuff the Mr nice guy in your pocket....

I think if you use the my complete quote it would include all the examples you have come up with , while not inducing severe pain in you, "watching my wife would be for me a severe painful experence" and would also include a large fight or flight response....

Name a few ?