Army Guy

No, thats what the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy has laid out, as there is no contracts for most of the ships laid out. 30 years is unrealistic as the Navy needs alot of these ships now or within the next 10 years or so The article below a\near the very end explains my piont about having the expertise and experence in military ship building...It also makes everyones elses piont about building them in Canada. My link navy review

Building large military ships, are not mechcano sets, where you follow the instructions and poof your in bussiness....they require skill and experience...two important assets that we have already lost...what my beef is now Canadians want to rebuild that industry on the backs of this commitment...that will last alittle more than 10 years then when these ships are done it will be cut off the tax payers tit, and die once again.... If these ship yards had a good product they would still be in the business. instead what do they build now... It is the governments responabilty to ensure the defense of this country, and they have commited funding to ensure there is always a professional base in which carry on this function, more to the piont they've invested dollars to ensure we have a good product...can you say the same thing about Canadian ship yards.... Are Mercenaries better soldiers....I think i'll let you answer that question, which would you perfer...

My question is why is that a governmental problem, why should we use Tax payers coin, to fund any Canadian shipyard...when they have not done so themselfs....and in doing so have lost the ability and expertise to build war ships. Yes it is, don't get me wrong i would love to operate a Canadian built piece of equipment the LAV III is a great pice of kit....But GM took that horn by the horns and built that plant and brought in the expertise to run that project..... Besides do you really think the Majority of Canadians want more military industry here in Canada...I know they barly have the guts for purchasing it imigine the bils spent on R&D to stay active in a very cut throat industry.

Come on now, we all know that the last 10 years the Military has been concentrating on the Army, and pumping most of the recruits that way.

The government does not have a very good track record when coming down to purchasing equipment that meets our needs, instead we plan and purchase for today, and fail to think of tommorrow, and with our purchase record, meaning 20 to 30 years between purchases, we should be perfect at it..one would think....Infact niether is the military who would have guess 25 years ago we would consider getting rid of tanks, or fighting an enemy with no uniform because warfare had changed, were we fail is warfare is always changing and we should always prepare for the worse case better to be prepared than not have the right equipment when the situation dictates. This is an easy fix hire more sailors, it's not like we are getting these ships tommorrow...this should never be a factor when buying anything...

How is out sourcing the building of capitol ships a bad idea, when you do not have the industry, experience , or tech to build them here in Canada. would you let a contractor that builds garden sheds for a living build your house. Providing jobs and rebuilding a non existant industry should not take priority over the main objective which is to provide our Navy with the best ships and equipment to do the job assigned to them.

I think if you carry it alittle further it will become clearer, If you compare ships coming out of US ship yards right now to any possiable ones coming out of say Irving ship yards....I think the benifits would over shadow the fact of job creation and tax benifits. Like speed in which they could be built, quality of product atleast in the first ships delivered, tech availability, and while we may purchase any design we want, thats the hull, what about the wpns systems the heart of the ship....do we need to purchase access to that, were is it being built....

Other than the Navy what major piece of equipment is built in Canada...And i think you just answered your own question, with Defenceless hat comment.

I agree 100%. Here is were i disagree, unless they can produce the same quality, or better...After all we are not talking about a nut or bolt, but a major purchase of a piece of equipment that quality may be the difference between life and death for hundreds of Canadian sailors. not counting a major investment to Canadian tax payers nobody likes a lemon. Canada has missed that boat , investing in military industry is not sexy in Canada, OK it gets sexy when you've got 35 bil to throw around....but why risk it , and while it would be nice to have a built in Canada solution, not many items in the CDN Military are home built, there is a reason for that. I do see your piont and agree with it. however when was the last time you checked the orgin of any goods and refused to buy it because it was not made in Canada....for the same reasons....my piont is why is military equipment the exception. when so many other things important things should take higher priority....

Your right they are in service, however the Navy does not have enough sailors to man all it's ships, and concetrate manning the newer Frigs, when was the last time we heard anything about our destroyers on a mission....being tied to the dock is hardly operational. Yes they're are plenty of designs out there, but my piont is why trust 35 bil to a yard with no experience in building them.... Really that is what they said last time we built frigs....but what happen to the Irvingyard in St John NB again.... Again That's not how shipbuilding works under this plan. The destroyers and frigates will be phased out, one at a time, between 2015 and 2030.youseem that once we have the plans we could build anything, which is false, they don't have the experience that you need to build large ships , not the experience in modern warships.... None, but if one added up all the good imported in from China, there would be no comparison in dollar value....so why do we insist our government gives out 35 bil dollar hand outs when we ourself can't maintain the same standards. Really i thought the Arliegh Burke class or the ships viaing for the Destroyer X program were very impresive....

Sometime you can be really funney Bjre, have you read any US intel on China's new aircraft Carrier....and it's new 5 th gen Aircraft has not worked out all it's bugs out either, just look at the engines still using Russian, one because Chinese are unreliable.....not much to brag about...although your right it is more than Canada has done..

Name some? since we are talking war ships how many City class ships did we export, how many other warships were built by Irving yard after the completion of the Frig contract. My piont was not to have the ships built in China, but rather the US, my example was Canadians think these ships should be built in a Canadian yard, and yet they fail to hold themselfs to the same standard, by purchasing goods from other countries, such as china....

As far as i know there is no plan yet, nor a design as of yet, which adds to the confusion and doubt that we should limit our chioces to 3 shipyards that have no real experience with large modern war ships. I've read serveral articles written by Navy pers and they all perfer a proven US design...but that is perhaps wishful thinking on their part. As for an orginal design, one would hope that an experence ship builder would do that, but other than harbour tugs and off shore resupply ves, where are they getting this experience...that and the time factor to design a new class of ships and have it proved is a lenghty process...Navy is operating without a destroyer class now... Halifax ships were not without their problems, as with any new design or class, but some were made with standard fastners some with metric some with both....thats not quality thats not having the experience or expertise....and while after 20 years that has all been worked out, is it what we should expect for 35 bil... Why, we have not done it with any other maj piece of equpment we've ordered....we are not building the herc in Canada, nor the C-17, nor the F-35....so why do we have to fund a industry to build warships every 20 to 30 years....when the last frig or destroyer is built how long is this yard going to be in full production...how many Canadians while be looking for work.....So really we are looking for temp employment of Canadians, and for that we will sacrifice the QTY to be built plus quality....

Why,for many reasons, a better warship for one, built by a company with experience and proven quality.. No we have 3 ship yards that have built smaller ships, Yes Irving did build most of our Frigates some 20 plus years ago, and have since move the yard to Halifax...and most of those staff have moved on...they now build tugs and off shore resupply ships....not even close to a mordern warship....And if buying the designs makes you a ship builder, count me in...i once built a wooden canoe... Someone mentioned it would employ Canadians....and the rewards would be worth it...I guess this type of thinking only appiles to the government and not to the rest of the country, when was the last time any of us checked the orgin of any product to see if it was made in Canada....i mean you really have to struggle to find anything not made in China....same thing....which brings back the question what is the main concern here ships for the navy, or job creation.

here's an interesting read, which seems to bring up a few questions even here in the Army. The government already announced that it plans to purchase well over 35 Bil dollars worth of ships both military and Coast guard, which has ship builders across the country in a feeding frenzy...The article questions why some builders should be favoured over others, even pionts to some having the sense of entiltement... Some of the posters below the article seem to ask the same question but going one step futher and ask why any of them should be awarded the contracts at all. Yes it would be nice to rebuild our nations ship building capabilities but should it be at our tax payers expense, it seems that Irving ship yards is the favoured builder, but what real experence do they still have or maintain in building large warships, or any large ships for that matter, what is it that they build now tugs and off shore supply ves....what experence do they have with modern naval tech and wpns....It just seems we are willing to hand off 35 bil with out knowing what we can expect in return except jobs created and maybe some experence in ship building which will be lost by the time we are ready to build more ships... what about quality of the product after all it is our own military that will have to fight and die in them, for the next 30 years or so.... There are plenty of ship builers in world today that are more than capable of building big ships, even have proven models and class of ships, yes it would mean that the 35 bil is spent in another nation, but the real question here are we purchasing ships or ship building experience and job creation.... Shipbuilding bonanza: We aren’t entitled; we have to earn it

Sorry RNG i was being a bit sarcastic in my reply....The fact that this is the first i've heard of opening new bases and that news would have swept across DND like wild fire..... Here's what i found in the Ottawa paper. Jordan Press of Post Media had the article below outlining denials by Defence Minister Peter MacKay's office that there are no negotiations underway for Canadian bases overseas. It was a strange denial to say the least. Previously DND acknowledged that it WAS in negotiations for such bases. The idea was to have equipment pre-positioned in staging area bases around the world. DND officials had mentioned Germany and Kuwait as areas they were interested in. Now, at least according to MacKay's office, no such negotiations have taken place. Who is to be believed? Here is the article from Jordan Press: The Department of National Defence said Thursday that Canada is not working to set up overseas military bases. A media report Thursday said the Canadian Forces was negotiating with seven countries for military access to build bases to house soldiers and equipment overseas and respond quickly to international events. While Canada has a base in Afghanistan at Kandahar Airfield along with forward operating bases, it is not looking to set up permanent international bases, according to a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay. Since January 2010, Canada's men and women in uniform have deployed on international operations in Afghanistan, Haiti, Africa, the Middle-East and . . . a NATO operation over the skies of Libya," Jay Paxton said. "Prudent planning is necessary to ensure that future expeditionary operations are fully supported, however this government and the Canadian Forces have no intention of creating permanent large bases in overseas locations." According to a report in French-language newspaper Le Devoir, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Department of National Defence have agreements in place with Germany and Jamaica to set up bases, and are focusing on closing a deal with Kuwait. Le Devoir reported that Canada also is in negotiations with Senegal, Kenya, Singapore and South Korea. Currently, if Canada wants to set up a base, such as the one in Italy to support the NATO operation over Libya, it must negotiate and pay for access. Le Devoir quoted a lieutenant-colonel at the Canadian Forces base in Spangdahlem, Germany, which it shares with the United States, as saying that overseas bases would be used as a way to respond quickly to international events without having to wait out negotiations. Speaking to reporters following a speech at a defence contractors conference in Ottawa Thursday, MacKay reportedly said Canada was in talks with other countries about future international homes for the Canadian Forces. "As we look out into the future, what we obviously try to do is anticipate where and when we will be needed, but it's difficult with any certainty to make those plans without talking to other countries, without doing internal examinations," MacKay was quoted as saying. During his speech, MacKay said the Canadian Forces have been and continue to be part of a number of operations at home and abroad. Continued demand on the military will require the government to make sure it adapts to changing circumstances, MacKay said. "During this high operational tempo, we're dealing with a complex and evolving security environment with unpredictable threats," he said. "We also have to adapt to technology that is evolving at a rapid pace, constantly altering how military operations are planned and conducted."

I truly don't get it, for years most Canadians have advocated MORE spending on our military, "Atleast give them the tools to do the job we've been tasked to do". was the battle cry, and now the military is getting "some" of those tools and funding is starting to flow,,,the cry is HOLY SHIT how are we going to pay for that...we don't need that... or the comments like the one above, "American style military" Lets take a look at our military for a minute, our entire Army or Airforce could fit into almost any Hockey arena in Canada and still have seats left over, maybe even do a fly past....Our entire Navy Could fit in most local arenas, American style indeed....we need to stop this new revolution before we get carried away, and start having asperations of taking over the world.... The forces are today funded by approximately $24.8 billion annually[4] ranked 13th, and are presently ranked 74th in size compared to the world's other armed forces 74 th in size can anyone even name 74 countries....Does that mean 50 third world countries have a Military larger than ours....Really sounds very "American" to me when you think of it.... So what gives ?

Police have been forced to change with the threat, which has become more militarized, take a look at the wpns and tactics used by organized crime, gangs etc...showing up to a major gun battle with a 9 mm pistol are in the past, I think that running gun battle/ Bank robbery gone bad in LA proved that... I think your reading to much into this new agreement, this agreement has been in the works now for many years, and was started as far back as the Winnipeg floods and Ice storm, these to minor set backs that mother nature threw at Canada tested DND and all the other depts to the limits...both had most of all 3 army brigs involved plus hundreds from the Navy and airforce... All one has to do is look at katrina, and how difficult it was for the American military( worlds best equiped) to respond to a major event...a major earth quake in BC would over whelm anything Canada could muster, in hours....i could not fathom the Cas that would occur because the military simple would not be able to get to everyone in time... The government knows all this and decided to take some sort of action, atleast have a back up plan....hence the North Com agreement...I hope that explains it some.

Canadian Military members do not have powers of arrest, with exception of Military Police (MP) and those are retricted. Even during the FLQ crisses QPP made the actual arrest with the military there to ensure security, and back up. During the G8/20 the military was there, to provide security to high value persons,and all the back ground stuff like VIP helo's, CAP, NBCW response teams, counter terrorist teams.....plus back up riot companies...Military new policy is to provide a heavy "UNSEEN' presence...just as in the games... Military ROE are very restrictive, while on operations in Canada,other than the scare factor, they could not do much more than the police could or can... as they should be, besides the Military is still growing it's reputation and they don't need any bad press, let the cops do there job, and when things get way out of hand then we can call in the Army... In Canada (Marshall law)was changed to the WAR measures Act, then in 1988 to the Emergencies Act. The War Measures Act was a Canadian statute that allowed the government to assume sweeping emergency powers, stopping short of martial law, i.e. the military does not administer justice, which remains in the hands of the courts. The Act has been invoked three times: During World War I, World War II, and the October Crisis of 1970. In 1988, the War Measures Act was replaced by the Emergencies Act. Prior to 1837, martial law was proclaimed and applied in the territory of the Province of Quebec during the invasion of Canada by the army of the American Continental Congress in 1775-1776. It was also applied twice in the territory of Lower Canada during the 1837-1838 insurrections. On December 5, following the events of November 1837, martial law was proclaimed in the district of Montréal by Governor Gosford, without the support of the Legislative Assembly in the Parliament of Lower Canada. It was imposed until April 27, 1838. Martial law was proclaimed a second time on November 4, 1838, this time by acting Governor John Colborne, and was applied in the district of Montreal until August 24, 1839.[2] My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Canada

I don't think we can include the NAZI's genocide in the reasons why the world went to war with the Nazi's. we did not confirm that the genocide was happening until the end of the war when some of the death camps were liberated....Yes the Allieds had reports and suspected it, but never took them seriuos until well into the war.... History has shown us very clear....that you can kill anything or anyone within your borders, and we write it off as their problem....but step one foot outside your borders and we scream expansionism and round up the troops and attack....the one exception was mother Russia who did both during WWII, perhaps we should have payed more attention to patton, and drove them out as well....

And while the F-18E/F may be the best forth gen aircraft on the market, the fact when you break it all down it is an updated F-18, and i'm sure if the F-35 program ever showed serious cracks in it, those other manufactures would in very quick order put some serious funding into updates as well... And i'm very aware that it takes more than the green machine to keep this country in it's current postion within the globe....But are the rest of Canadians aware that there is more to running this nation than education, and health care as well it all needs to be balanced in good times and bad times it is a two way street....and the last 25 years or so it's been more a one way.....with Canadians expecting great things out of it's military, creating more and more challanges for it, alot of them far beyond it's capabilities...and while our military prides itself on making lemon aid out of cow piss, our soldiers have paid that price with our blood sweat and tears.....I think it is time we find that balance, admit our faults come up with a solution that works for everyone... Fund us so we can do what is expected of us, or cut back on the expectations and taskings , or even yet, close our military, depend on the US for protection and live with their rules, and regulations in regards to national defence, security, and sovereignty. We've been on this magic carpet ride forever, to the piont i think it has been incorporated into our national identity....an american soldier once said to me our country is a welfare state with a caddy parked in the front yard, we like to voice our opinion and think we should be heard, ...but can't back it up....on all levels....I think we are that little kid in the school yard , you know the one that likes to be heard , but hides behind his big brother.... And really when we think about it, our military size says it all, it's the size Canadians want...and yet it has been proven that our nation can barely hold it's head above water with a sustained overseas deployment of around 3600 soldiers....And we brag about pulling more than our wieght, doing more than our share, or we complain in the next breath on not being able to help out in other areas of the world....shit comedians have made entire routines up about our military, and people laugh their asses off...yup thats us, pretty funney shit....then wonder why we can't be taken serious at the UN or at any other global table.... I think if we want a seat at the grown ups table we must be willing to pay for it, or learn to keep our opinions to ourselfs....or re org into something else, and live with the consquences...It's frustrating being on the other side of the fence, going on inter national deployments with countries that equip their militaries with a purpose. seeing comrads die because we did not have the right equipment, at the right time.... Sorry about the rant....

I guess we will have to, as i don't see it as a black and white issue, i do see problems on both sides of the fence, but i do see the F-35 as having a few more pluses. There will always be options available well past the roll out of the F-35, be it another American aircraft such as the F-18E/F or a euro fighter. With all the rumblings about the F-35, the US airforce has also looked at another option of starting production of upgraded versions of the F-15,F-16 and F-18, these aircraft are already seeing alternative versions put out such as a new F-15 version that has some stealth features, ie the tails fins have been modified, along with some body features to reduce signature. I guess we should have thought about that when we started cashing in on those peace dividens after the cold war, or funding other things during the decade of darkness. now it is catching up with us and biting us in the ass,alot of equipment is well over due to be replaced and it is coming with a massive price tag....50 bil is just the tip of the ice burg.... No i do understand , and the F-35 is starting to look untenable,and i will agree with you on that statement, but key word is starting to, not untenable just yet....and until it is why would we risk lossing a chance to own a state of the art Aircraft.... One of the prime reasons i think it has a good chance to come around is the pace at which tech is progressing, of which we both have agreed on. another major reason is the Airforce, Navy and Marines have placed all their eggs into this project, and have hundrds of billions of dollars at stake here, the government will force something to happen,to get pricing under control if it spirls to much more out of control.... I do care about debt load...as i to pay taxes...But Canadians have also made a promise and have a responsibilty to ensure their soldiers, sailors, and airmen are equiped to the best of their abilities, to perform all the tasks the public and government has assigned them.....as a trade off for our military members signing on to unlimited liablity....and if that means going into debt , then Canadians will have to make some hard choices and come to the conclusion they can't have the cake and eat it as well. either get rid of the military,and come under US rules for our protection and loss some of our identity, or cut some thing else off. I have , and i do know what you are conveying, and many issues have come to light that i was not aware of or had put any serious thought to. All that being said IF the F-35 project gets back on the rails i'd hate for Canada to make a hasty decission in regards to pulling out and miss out on what looks like a chance of a life time for our airforce...

All that being said the use of Nuk wpns has been thought of. Such as the British in the 1982 Falklands War, A key British Intel operator had heard afterwards of an extremely secret contingency plan to threaten Argentina with a nuclear strike if – as was possible at one point – the British military risked unthinkable defeat. In 1991 during the first Gulf War,The American journalist Seymour Hersh, in his bestseller The Samson Option, recounted how Israel reacted: The [uS] satellite saw that Shamir had responded to the Scud barrage by ordering mobile missile launchers armed with nuclear weapons moved into the open and deployed facing Iraq, ready to launch on command. American intelligence picked up other signs indicating that Israel had gone on a full-scale nuclear alert that would remain in effect for weeks. No one in the Bush administration knew what Israel would do if a Scud armed with nerve gas struck a crowded apartment building, killing thousands. All Bush could offer Shamir, besides money and more batteries of Patriot missiles, was American assurance that the Iraqi Scud launcher sites would be made a priority target of the air war. Many high ranking Russian defectors during the cold war could not fathom western thinking in regards to NUK and chemical wpns and there use, a unused wpn was a useless wpn,according to Russian military minds and Tac nuks and chem wpns were part of Russia's opening acts of war, so much so that these wpns were could be delivered by Divisional level authority....for them it was part of the third world war, and their game winning solution regardless of consquences.... So historically having Nuk wpns has been a waste of time for nations such as Canada....

That is only half the leason we learned, despite the Germans having the some tech advantage on the battle fields, it was they who were defeated...part of that defeat can be pionted right back to the tech advantages themselfs....complicated systems, not easy to mass produce, equipment fielded well before it was time....etc etc....The Russians have always known this, and have hedgeed thier bets on a proven method, Dumb it down, and produce thousands of them, shit look at the T64, 72, 80, simple shit made to simple standards that can be mass produced out of moms kitchen....Even the US followed this theory during WWII in it's tank production, the Sherman was a piece of crap, but they made thousands of them...simply outproduced the enemy....it's a proven design... Today even Russian wpns take weeks and months to complete one veh....tommorrows WAR will start off with a whiz bang but end with sticks and stones....

And while this project does have it's issues with delays and costs over runs, the US government has already decided to par other projects down or turn the taps off, the F-22 is one example, The fact that there is not a wide variety of aircraft to choose from is another.....Like you said during the cold war we had the F-14, F-15, F16, F-18 Bombers, stealth aircraft, transports etc etc. there is no where to go from here they are at the last standing project aside form the few Black projects IE UCAV, etc..... And while military spending is no longer untouchable, and will suffer hits..... it would shock the world if this project was trashed...as the US Airforce needs to replace so many aircraft in the near future....and this is one of the only aircraft in the wings.... Actually i was responding to your comment that Nothing the F-35 has promised has been delivered....The F-35 once completed will incorporate much more capabilities than just your average Multi mission aircraft, but also have capabilities from Jiont stars, EW suits surpassing that of the Growler, have a state of the art comms system, capable of not only air to ground, air to air but sat comms as well and serveral other types. And while true that the F-35 will be involved with other airframe types , i think the F-35 will be or form a major part in those packages. This is a major concern, inregards to the end stick price, that being said there is always an opition, or a plan B, to cancel the entire purchase , i mean there are plenty of examples of contracts being canceled even while aircraft are in the production phase. I do however think that Canada will stick it out, providing there is a reasonable line in the sand. what that piont is i'm not sure, i'm sure our government has discussed it internally, i'm hoping there is a plan B in place... Your costing figures are not broken down, but normally include things like training for pilots and techs , parts packages, wpns sys packages, etc etc.... I think that the Airforce is long over due a replacement aircraft, and today the F-35 is the best choose providing that pricing does not spiral out of control. That being said i would recommend the purchase today, being a taxpayer and a member of the military. I think it is time for Canada to step up to the plate and take it responsibilities as a G-8 nation , a Member of numerous defence agreements seriously, and to stop the free magic carpet ride we enjoyed in the last 30 or more years. I think that this purchase is a good start.