Army Guy

Had we kept that realistic spending profile all along , including during the decade of darkness, there would be no massive bar tab, but rather a more even tab that could be swallowed during the bad times and good times. All that being said this massive tab you talk about is to equip our forces to the size they are today...which is to small "my opinion" The equipment that is going to be replaced is rusting out, well over 25 years ...When would be a good time to replace it, after we get our defict down to what number ? how many years will that take ? So when talking about our military we should ask ourselfs this .....is this massive bar tab worth it just to maintain status quo, or should we consider another option, such as Having the US provide our security needs and lossing our sov, or contract it out to a private company, and risk lossing our identity....pick one they all come at a cost.

So it is stll beyond your comprehension. keep trying, "remaining stable" (Your link) does not mean decreasing as you quoted was beyond your comprehension....and increasing by 80 Murders over the previuos year (my Link) clearly is not decreasing....but then again i'm not the one with an axe to grind.

Why would they, they don't do all the time anyway, and they are living the life of riley in prison, although in some states taking away all those privilages and placing convicts in austre conditions has dramtically decreased the return rate, i remember watching a documentary on some US prison that housed convicts in tents, and forced them to work on a huge farm , that grew most of there food, and provided profits to pay for the facility seemed to work , as they had the lowest return rate of any US prison..

Then perhaps you should read you entire link, including the below Quote, then perhaps reread what i posted.... Here is what i posted: I'm not sure how else to explain it, so you can comprehend it. But the fact is for this time period there has been NO decrease....IN Violent crime, and yes overall crime and the crime severity Index has gone down, i was not disputing that, infact i did mention that in my post... WOW, alittle testy are we....Do i know whats going on in jails, I'm no expert,but then again i can read, hav'nt done any time in one if thats what you mean, have been to a couple of riots with DND at the Kingston Pen does that count. Did'nt see much rehabilitation going on although lots of behavior modification. To say the whole experience is centered around "treating the immate" is a crock...while it may happen while the convict serves his time it is centered around his sentence...Treatment is not mandatory,unless dictated at sentencing, nothing is, not treatment, not work,other than following the rules of prison a prisoner can fill his day with nothing....except serving his sentence... You mentioned does rehabilitation always work , there is more than one study out there that says it's a failure on many levels, so much so that they believe the only schooling the majority of inmates get is the one they give themselves on how to be a better criminal.... But lets not forget the main reason they are behind bars to start with they commited a crime and were sentenced to x amount of time as punishment ...what they do with that time is up to them....

Because that is what the links say, overall crime is decreasing, however violent crimes are increasing perhaps you should try reading the link... Your full of shit...perhaps you can provide a source on that...Within the criminal code it lists infractions and recommended mins and maxs, were does it state preventive methods.....

Some are rights such as the right to vote, which correct me if i'm wrong is something new, as they did'nt always have this right....Recieving old age pension is also something new.... So do my kids when i ground them for sneaking out, or something else that is petty...So should murders be entitlted to everything else...Perhaps someone can show me were it states that they can not work for their food and lodgings, and were in the charter does it say they should be entitled to sat tv, movies, day passes etc etc.... So we can suspend rights if it's due to security reasons, not if you've committed a violent crime and have taken a life....the piont is we have suspended some rights for some groups why can we not extend that to another group....

Cybercoma: I understand that, but if you look at the stats, violent crime has gone up, and when you include the increase of population these types of crimes are increasing not decreaseing. and not just violent crimes but other crimes as well. overall Canada has seen a decrease but the crimes that count ie murder, etc have gone up or remained at a steady state. For the most part it has already been done, murder is suppose to be a 25 year sentence. and yet i can provide thousands of examples were convicts did not serve any where close to 25 years, the Inter net is full of examples of some serving as little as 4 to 6 years for taking a life... I'm ok with that, tell me something you loss a love one to a murder or drunk driver, is not the result the same....or in the case we are talking about here a life has been changed forever...and what was the sentence again... and this is not an isolated case...we have for a long while been more concerned with the rights of the criminal rather than the victem... Your assuming that is what would happen, but discount the other studies mentioned in my link which have stated that the more austre the prison, the more deterent it serves.... I agree with you, in fact the other 2 studies in my link even say as much, That prison is a unverisity for the criminal mind...Under the current justice sys nothing will change....unless we stop locking these guys up...So whats left, i'm saying make prison the last place you want to be in not the country clubs they got now....I'm not talking unhuman but a place full of discpline and hard work...And if thats all they take from prison is to be better convicts so be it...next time they are caught they can spend even more time there...

No, we just want to see it through until it is finshed , so we don't have to come back, so it was not for nothing.

The main purpose of punishment is to punish, Deterence although part of that should not be the main factor,making sure the punishment fits the crime should be... And no it should not be the main goal of the justice system to reduce crime, but to ensure everyone recieves a fair trial and sentence if convicted..that should be the main goal....if crime gets reduced then it would be a bonus...reducing crime is the job of the police,and other depts... And no one said anything about harsh punishments, what i said was punishments that fit the crimes, IE 25 years for murder means 25 years served, and not entiled to all the rights and pivilages they have now....in fact i'm all for making them earn and pay for there own way while in prison...

However, some violent crimes did increase. There were 806 attempted murders in 2009, 85 more than in 2008. Increases were also reported in the rate of extortion, firearms offences and criminal harassment. There were 610 homicides in 2009, about the same as the previous year. The homicide rate has been relatively stable for the past decade and well below the peak during the mid-1970s. http://www.apolicemanslife.com/search/label/Canadian%20Crime%20Stats Like i said it depends on qwhat source you use and what info was pluged into the stat, an article below seems to cast some doubt on how our crime stats are compliled and how they could be used to mislead. http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/new-mli-paper-canadian-crime-stats-don%E2%80%99t-add-up/ Someone is setting the rules, all one has to do is take a look back 10 to 15 years and compare what rights and privilages they had then to now...they vote, they recieve pensions, sat/cable tv, movies, day passes,free education the list goes on...So i ask you should convicts that have been convicted of seriuos crimes be entitled to these ? and why .... Here is where we differ, for seriuos offensives i think you should forfiet all your rights, not just some of them all of them, After all was it not them that took it upon themselfs to suspend their victems rights, to take a life forever....what makes you think a murderer should be treated equal while in prison ? The example i give is military prison, please note none of these prisoners have commited any federal offensives. and the stats for prisoners coming back for a second vist are well below 1 %. They are awake at 0500 am,and asleep at 2100 hrs eat 3 times a day, they have kit inspections, parades/ drill, PT, and work around building or at the farm, no TV/ games unless it is Sunday, NO smoking Unless you've earned it then only 8 cigs per day. no talking unless spoken to... lets just say life is alittle more controled. and according to their stats it does work... The studies were down in both the US and Canada, these study was written for the Solictor General Canada http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm And according to you so do they when they work, and with much less risk, That has got to say something that a convict in our nations jails can recieve more priviliages than a soldier serving his country....does that make sense...

Thats what the Canadian tax payer wanted....not our military

Do we really need to lock up all the criminals our courts send their way...busted for a couple Grams of pot, why can't this guy work it off doing community service, something like that, but you kill or mess someone life up forever there should be a heavy price to be paid...IE murder, a drunk driver that kills someone....

I guess that would depend on what source document you used, my shows only a slight drop in the last 2 years, and very little overall difference since 2009. thats the wiki site which uses Auditor general report or so they say. I'm thinking that is not enough, and it's BS to think it's unrealistic. I think we've been taken for a ride by convicts far to long, and have given back all their rights by trying to turn the other cheek and convert them back into regular citizens...There should be a punishment and thats it...do your punishment then get out... no be a good boy recieve 1/3 of your sentence off, get a 3 for 1 back awaiting for trail, etc etc... Studies have clearly shown that harsh or long sentences do not act as a deterent for crime....And that prisons act as huge learning instutions for criminal actitivies....however there are other studies that show that prisons with auster conditions and very few rights given out freely were the best deterent, those prisons that infact forced prisoners to work be it on farms or road gangs etc etc that paid they're own way, were also cost effective, and showed the best promise of repeat offenders not returning....No Sat TV , Movies, TV , Free education, week end passes, vists from girlfriends....Shit they have it better than our soldiers do in Afghan....

Crime has dropped very little in the last 5 years, and by using my list or yours it does not say anything except perhaps staus quo....My piont is our country has spent to much time and effort into to seeking if our sentences deter crime...and to little to see if it's an effective punishment that fits the crime....Frankly i don't care if it deters anyone at all...i want it to fit the crime....I also don't want them living the life of riley while they are serving this punishment, and all rights suspended until they are released.

Now this made my pop come out my nose.... Afghan has set temps in around plus 65 on a regular basis ....and in the back of an armour veh around plus 100....now lets put on all our cloths and pers equipment,and over 30 lbs of gear...Thats hot....thats really F***king hot.... So hot you had to wear gloves becuase the metal on your wpn would get to hot to touch with bare skin...so hot you could cook off your veh after the sun was down a few hours.... Candian Army will not be deploying ground troops anytime soon to Libya, with what are we going to fight with.... Afghan kicked the crap out of most of our gear, replacements vehs and equipment are still years out...

Sorry, My linkwiki links. Your list does not paint a pretty picture either, which supports my claim that there is a problem within our justice system. I think Scotty has a piont that the sentencing portion or punishment does not fit the crime. which should be the main consideration when sentencing, not if the punishment is acting as a deterent, which it has already been proven that it does not in most cases, because frankly i don't care if it deters or not. This case we are looking at, a man has ruined anothers life and he recieves a very light sentence. thats BS.

While the crime rate has dropped in Canada and has continued to drop it does not mean crime is under control or not a problem here in Canada in fact when looking at developed countries Canada rates number four, the first being USA,Spain, EU, then Canada so it's nothing to brag about. In fact it means that we still have a large problem with crime. There is plenty of studies showing both the pros and cons of longer prison sentences and thier cost to the general tax payer. Lets just say for debate that we go with longer prison terms do not deter criminals from commiting crimes... Cdn Prisons. But i thought this whole justice system was based on a jail sentence was a punishment, that should reflect the seriousness of the crime commited...and an added bonus was during the convicts stay we could perhaps try and educate him not to commit crimes again....but the main reason of the sentence handed down was so that justice is served, and punishment was handed out to the criminal... Adding in cost/benifit analyis should not even compute into anything. i mean if it is all about money why punish anyone for crimes....While i will agree that the cost of housing criminals is something that needs to be taken seriously but at a different table, different time....and really has nothing to do with serving justice, or punishing criminals.... I don't think it is a knee jerk reaction our justice system has thousands of examples were justice has not been served correctly, in regards to length of sentences, letting prisoners out early because of over crowding,prisoners rights, current prison conditions, etc etc...just some of the reasons alot of Canadians are not happy with our current justice system....

There is a shit ton of ship builders in the country, But can they design and build a war ship, do they have access to the tech that goes into a war ship, i mean i got a garage full of tools but i can't build a canoe....my concern is many experts (not me, real Navy guys)believe our nation has lost those skills and experts, and current ship yards are not ready for major war ship design and construction....all one has to do is look at the litton yard in the US and the problems they had with the LSD-17...and they have a world class yard and everything that goes with that...and while our yards may be ready for the JSS project, the last yard could not even come up with a proper design... even the US naval yards are running into backlog problems building to many classes in the same yard, and even threaten to put some needed designs on hold , if it was as easy as handing it off to another yard, using the same logic a yard is a yard, and a ship is a ship, why have they simply not used another naval yard.

I'm sorry, but that isn't the navies chief constructor, that's a contributor to Defence Watch. As for my figures, they come from the CFDS, and Defence Watch. Also, given that the AADs will be the first of the 15 surface combatants to be replaced, the chance of them being cut is near zero. There is no current plans for amphibious ships, and any shortfall is being made up for with the current operational spending reductions. The plan is very much going ahead. He seems to be very knowable on the topic, I've check out some what was written and it checks out on the navy web site and ADM MATT site as well i hav'nt check it all out . well both of us can not be write and using the info from the same sites something has to give, not calling you a lair, maybe your info is newer ..it sure would be nice if we shared a link or two.

Maybe my link is outdated or perhaps my math is bad, but 15 ships at 1.5 bil adds up to more than the alloted funds given out for navy projects, my links have them at 1.5 for the AAD and 700 mil to replace frigs.... with 35 Bil at stake i'd being saying the same thing , however you did read the Navies Chief constructor why does he think other wise. At the Top of the link i provided is a list of all the major ship building yards in the nation, and it lists what they are building now, nothing even close to a modern warship....and you can not compare them...it's not the same.. Even our own navy guys, are saying if we build in Canada it is going to be an uphill battle from day one, mostly due to the fact we as a nation have turned a blind eye and watched our ship building industry turn to dust....And i think Dave is right if we are to turn that around it is going to take some governmantal infussion, not only to moderize our building yards, but to bring in the skill and expertise that has dried up, on both sides military and civilian side....not to mention purchasing or developing all the wpns systems needed to put inside....which is a huge task.... If we are going to develope our ship building skills let them start small but wait a minute....the JSS was a small project, sarted when again, and they still do not have a working design, let alone a proto type...dangling a bigger carrot in front of them is not going to solve the issue...

Not according to the link i provided, and not according to the Militaries defnse plan 2030...Those figures are is what is on the Navy wish list,not mine...And according to the Navy they are still 4.5 bil short to cover the list... Out of the 35 bil if those figures are correct, which they should as they have come from the navy only 14.5 bil has been alotted to the navys wish list....unless you can provide another source. As for the Amphibous ship, they have been looking at this for years, even conducted serveral trails with the LSD-17 ships...perhaps you have another source you can provide.

Here, generally, is what the navy has on its 'wish list': I think your numbers are off, below is what is on the Navy's wish list i count atleast 7, not counting AopS, which i'm assuming will be a requirement within the next 10 years....notice the list does not include any sub modernization but has been mentioned costing 1.5 Bil Four destroyers - $4 B; Two amphibious landing ships with well decks - $2 B; Three joint support ships - $2.1 B; Eight arctic offshore patrol vessels - $2.8 B; and Twelve frigates - $9 B. The total for this plan amounts to $19.9 B; $4.5 B has to be removed from the list or more money has got to be found! And while the Ship building plan has been spread out over the next 30 years, the Navy needs hulls now, and if the JSS project is any indication of problems with building with our borders it may be more than 10 years before we even get out of the starting blocks and steel is laid.... Here is article from the Navy's chief Naval construtor. which highlights all the experience and skills we have already lost. and why we may have to look outside our borders to make deadlines. Has Canada Lost the Ability to Design Warships? By Dave Pugliese Moderator’s Note. This commentary was originally published on Tuesday, 15 March 2011 on David Pugliese’s Defence Watch. It is reproduced here with the permission of Mr. Pugliese. Long-time Defence Watch (DW) reader “Chief Naval Constructor” posted material yesterday that I thought raised some interesting issues about the ability of this country to design its own ships. He was responding to DW reader “Bazza” who raised some issues in an earlier posting and concerns about ship designs. Here is what Chief Naval Constructor writes: “Bazza, it is suggested the reason why only three have commented on your article is because there are so few knowledgeable and experienced ‘project’ multi-discipline ship systems integration engineering ‘designers’ [led by a qualified post-graduate trained and experienced ‘senior’ Naval Architect] as well as ‘ship project’ managers still active in Canada. As a direct result, a similar situation exists with respect to shipbuilders and shipyards, in fact traditionally the Crown’s procurement authority and shipbuilders depend upon former Naval Engineering members providing services as Procurement Officers, Naval Overseers/QARs, designers, managers et cetera.” “As CMS Admiral McFadden stated recently, he does not have the hundreds of technically trained bodies to fill the project team of one major ship project let alone several projects implemented during the same time frame. He could have also pointed out even if he did; ‘none’ of them would have previous ‘project’ experience and certainly no experienced ship ‘project mentors’ to lead and direct. This situation can only be resolved by the solution proposed by an astute and experienced WWII Naval Engineering Captain (RCN) Harrison during 1948: with across the board ship design and shipbuilder technology transferred from the UK at the time [including hundreds of experienced ‘designers’ and ‘ship builders’].” “The rise and fall of Canada's world class ship design, marine industrial & shipbuilding lasted three decades 1948 – 1978, ending with the unexpected, and never explained 28 June 1976 decision by the Navy’s ‘design authority’ DGMEM (Director General Maritime Engineering & Maintenance) to disband what was by then essentially a ‘Canadian’ and, arguably the world’s best, frigate/destroyer & naval auxiliary in-house design team of about 36 multi-disciplined naval engineers, just after they had completed the commissioning of the world’s first all gas turbine DDH 280-class of TG destroyers [‘lead’ ship Iroquois launched 1972] as well as the CPF Preliminary Design and Technical Statement of Requirements (TSOR) under the leadership of Canada’s last Head of Projects Definition, Captain Dale Roushorn, equivalent to what was in 1948 the Director of Naval Construction, formed and led during 1948-56 by Commodore (RCNVR) Sir Roland ‘Rollie’ Baker RCNC (Royal Corps of Naval Constructors).” “This priceless ‘Canadian’ ship acquisition capability, capacity and corporate memory have now all but disappeared to the point where Canada has not been able to produce a pragmatic TSOR to an operational SOR since about 1986. This was again very evident with the first JSS Project [2005-2008]. For the record, it is submitted that in order to be ensured of producing a pragmatic SOR & TSOR, Canada must have at its disposal an experienced Projects Definition project ship systems engineering ‘team’ at the level of the 1950-76 in-house design team.” “Before a TSOR can be reasonably certain to be ready for released to industry through a PWGSC Request for Proposals (RFP), the following increasingly detailed and complex swings around the ‘design spiral’ must be completed to the satisfaction of an experienced Naval Architect [Chief Naval Constructor level]: Concept Design (CD); Demonstration Design (DD); Preliminary Design (PD); and, finally, Contract Design [CD]. The CD Technical Data Package (TDP) of Specifications & Drawings constitutes the Statement of Work (SOW) attached to the RFP for release to industry. The resultant winning shipbuilder will have to engage a design house, preferably with proven international experience, to do a Design ‘Check’ to be followed by the development of the Detailed Design & Production TDPs.” “The Shipbuilder will have to convince the Crown’s Ship Project Management Office (PMO) the Detail Design has been ‘Canadianized’ to ensure Canada’s world class In-Service Support requirements are satisfied and that Canada continues to be the only navy in the world interoperable with a USN Carrier Task Group. This is not a trivial exercise as the combined value of the two National Ship Procurement Strategy (NSPS) shipbuilder contracts are worth some $35B and a modern 7,000-ton Canadian Surface Combatant will represent one of the more complex design projects on the planet.” “WRT your two main concerns, the following is offered for your consideration: It is understood the Crown intends to negotiate an Umbrella Agreement (UA) with each of the two successful Combatant & Non-Combatant shipbuilders. No doubt a primary UA requirement involves the negotiation of a class design. For the JSS ACAN, a Transfer of Technology deliverable is included, though it makes more sense that it be tailored to whatever shipyard wins the Non-Combatant contract and that it is done as part of the post-selection Functional Design phase. And no, BMT Ottawa, as the Navy’s Definition, Engineering, Logistics and Management Support (DELMS) contractor, cannot have a direct relationship with the NSPS shipbuilders as it would constitute a conflict of interest, at least not until the two NSPS shipbuilders are under contract with the Crown. All due respect to BMT, they have yet to compete a project whereby their TSOR/SOW [as a result of a Project Definition design] was used. Further, to my knowledge they are not in the Detail Design and shipyard Production Design TDP business.” “As noted from NSPS Q&A 27: “It is envisioned that ship designers will participate (directly or as part of a team) in the design phase of the ships to be built by the selected shipyards. It is anticipated that under the NSPS, a “design-then-build” approach will further reduce lead-time to construction and increase pricing fidelity. Subject to certain restrictions to avoid conflict of interest, designers may also be involved in the detailed design and the production design of these ships.” And yes it is a challenge, but it is submitted it is the responsibility of the shipbuilders to indicate to the Crown in their RFP Proposals they “have compatible, harmonious, effective and profitable relationships with the ship designers the Government expects them to work with”.” “Since the NSPS RFPs were released 7 Feb there appears to be a concerted effort in almost daily articles emanating out of Halifax through this DW forum as well as the Canadian Press and the Chronicle Herald to convince all that Canada still has the ship design capability and capacity; that complex ships should be designed in Canada and that there was somehow a NSPS requirement to both design and build the ships in Canada.” Chief Naval Constructor then goes on to highlight the comments from Peter Cairns in a recent Canadian Press newspaper article: “Peter Cairns, of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada, said it’s the second time Ottawa has looked offshore for designs. That runs contrary to the Conservatives’ national shipbuilding strategy, which pledged to design and build military and government ships in Canada. “I would encourage them to do their own design,” Cairns said. “I’m very concerned that the Canadian government under the guise of short-term budget gain (will) throw the baby out with the bath water.”” Chief Naval Constructor then concludes: “All due respect but, as noted above, the baby has already been thrown out with the bath water. It is difficult to comprehend why Cairns is not separating ‘design and build’. The NSPS was never about anything but a shipyard-focused ‘build’ effort.”

SO stating that they have to be built in Canada, for job creation and rebuilding a dead industry was not political....

No, thats what the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy has laid out, as there is no contracts for most of the ships laid out. 30 years is unrealistic as the Navy needs alot of these ships now or within the next 10 years or so The article below a\near the very end explains my piont about having the expertise and experence in military ship building...It also makes everyones elses piont about building them in Canada. My link navy review

Building large military ships, are not mechcano sets, where you follow the instructions and poof your in bussiness....they require skill and experience...two important assets that we have already lost...what my beef is now Canadians want to rebuild that industry on the backs of this commitment...that will last alittle more than 10 years then when these ships are done it will be cut off the tax payers tit, and die once again.... If these ship yards had a good product they would still be in the business. instead what do they build now... It is the governments responabilty to ensure the defense of this country, and they have commited funding to ensure there is always a professional base in which carry on this function, more to the piont they've invested dollars to ensure we have a good product...can you say the same thing about Canadian ship yards.... Are Mercenaries better soldiers....I think i'll let you answer that question, which would you perfer...