Army Guy

It's to bad there is not a larger 4 th party something in the center, or slightly right, shit i'd even take far right...., I'm afraid that it really does not matter what party is elected, the military is in for another hit, everyday all parties are promising more and more, that money has to come from some where. unless there is some growth in revenue.... I've never been a fan of this whole Canadian ship building program, I do on one hand i think that Canada could benefit from building navy ships, we used to be good at it.....but reality is telling me it is a waste of valuable military funding, which will be wasted on companies that will not keep those capabilities up after the government money dries up..... There has been several have decent studies been done on Canada's navy and rebuilding it from the ground up.....and while i will admit i know nothing when it comes to navy and it's workings , i do know when the navy is being fleeced to prop up a dead ship building capability....the AOR's are a prime example of that the British just had several AOR's built for a 1/3 of the cost and are receiving twice as much capability...and as inflation erodes the entire projects worth, capabilities will be cut how many frigs where we originally to get and what are we getting now....and what will we end up with.... And then there is the coast guard ships, here is a service that has been screwed over since the beginning of time, and we think the navy is in bad shape...this should have been a separate program altogether and in my opinion this is where we could start with rebuilding the ship building capabilities..... All i'm saying is i don't have faith in any of the political parties right now...at least when it comes to properly funding the military. And like Smc am not sure where i'm going to place my vote, but like Derek i'm sure it wont be NDP, or liberal....

True enough, and to be honest my first tour we were all excited, excited to test our training and chance to practice our craft , and that all quickly disappeared with our first contact with the enemy, and once we had experienced what war is truly like...the same could be said of those thousands of Canadians who were there to see us off where excited as we were, carrying signs , yelling through the fence, you know those slogans i'm talking about....the kind spoken by those that have not experienced what war is about.....none the less they were excited...recruiting numbers went way up....it all points to support, and a want to contribute.

Thats why i really think any media coverage of the current state of our military is welcomed..... We all know the problems the navy is having staying operational.....the army although it has been the receiver of much of the CPC spending....is still in dire straits with shortages of everything and a huge lack of logistical vehs, to the point where i don't think any major combat unit could move and sustain itself without drawing its logistical fleet from several other units..... Yes there are new trucks on the horizon, but only large vehs,which will replace 3 to 4 classes and sizes of vehs....and once again not enough of them.

5, i stand corrected, but then the same question applies is 5 enough, keep in mind during Afghan mission there was 3 sustainment a week, some experts have said the magic number starts at 6, and those numbers do not include the initial deployment, or withdrawal.... Don't get me wrong it is a great tank, but spare parts is a problem, and every tank is not the same so while a final drive may fit one it may not fit another, a major problem in the field.... Problem with having them all in one area, is standardized training, the folks in pet will be familiarized with CH-47 ops while the rest of the army is not...that includes Lt infantry ops, resupply ops, what it does is give pet another tool in the box in regards to combat ops, that is not so much available to the rest of the army.... Same as the tanks, we have tanks in Gagetown and out west, but none in Pet....it becomes a problem with training.....

I agree to a certain point, and while i continue to support the CPC , if you take a look at past liberal performance they could match program for program.... The C-17 was a great program, i"m a huge fan, but is the issue or question was 4 enough, knowing that we were not completed our mission at the time, or what the next one would be, and how much the airforce relies on this aircraft for sustainment, and how many extra hours was put on the airframes to accomplish all that....While i'm not a expert in airforce things , i think almost everyone agrees that 4 is not the magic number, and we have passed on opportunities to increase those numbers, and with the A400M coming on line i think there will be more C-17 up for grabs....I think this was one of the failures of this program.... The LEO II-A4 purchase is a different story, for many reasons, we did over look the importance of tanks as a whole on the battle field, and just what role they would play in places such as Afghanistan, we spent bils researching other options such as the MMEV, or that damn assault gun mounted on a lav chassis...... all of those dollars could have been used in properly outfitting all our Armoured regts with tanks of some sort.... we finally came to the conclusion that nothing beats a tank on any battle field, and we purchase 100 used tanks, and rented 20 new LEO IIA6M off the Germans. first problem is those A4 we purchased were not all A4's but instead some were older models brought up to A4 standards, but while they look like A4 they are all not the same, each model has different drive systems, other mechanical systems are different, making spare parts a problem....and anyone familiar with tanks knows that for every hour it is driven it requires 10 hours of labor, driving 65 tonnes cross country at speeds that will snap a neck and you break alot of stuff.....this problem continues to plague our armoured corp guys....tank availability is not very high....and parts availability is also an issue.... While they are leaps and bounds ahead of the old C4 we had we purchased the A-4 model when the A-6 model was available, and in just a few years later the Germans introduced the newest A-7 plus...which is 4 generations ahead of the A-4. The chinooks , another great program, just not a big fan on how they were distributed....based in Pet it is a rare treat that they are seen at the other Brigades...

I wish macleans would do an article on the overall condition of the forces...maybe shock this nation into some action...

Rue: Thank you.

You make it very clear that you have given up, and just for the record EYEBALL, i never singled you out, i said those people that did not vote or make their voice heard got whatever government the rest of the country wanted, and they should stop whining and complaining because they did not take part in the process. Now if you are one of those guys then i guess if the shoe fits then wear it..... No i think you made it very clear that the burden should be placed on the soldiers backs, ensuring that a referendum is held......that is your quote above is it not.... I'm in it for the money, now that shit is funney, if i was in it for the money then i would have been a garbage collector in a major city less danger and alot more money....what i did say is the wages are decent, if you compare them to other nations military services, but there are alot of other better paying jobs out there....in it for the money indeed....i remember a time not so long ago when a good chunk of the forces were going to the food banks, taking 2 or 3 part time jobs....because we were all in it for the money..... One of your rights is freedom of speech, it must piss you off to no end that one of the guardians of those rights is the very same idiots... Funney thing about the TIT eyeball, even soldiers pay taxes, so guys like you will not have anything to whine about...... You have never supported any soldier, airmen , sailor....you have said repeatedly that you do not support anything about the military, so lets not start now,...... i must have struck a cord, for you to get this worked up.....

Come on Jacee they are not that personal, I never said that, i said at the beginning there was a majority of support, most canadians were excited about a combat mission... No they don't always listen, but when you get enough voices, they do, i remember a Ottawa university professor who got on the national media about Canadian soldiers abusing POW's, within days this very topic became a major political debate in the house so much so that a major investigation was carried out...it was eventually proven false, but the point is this was one man, one voice that stopped a nation in its tracks..... look at history it is full of examples of people using their voices to make change , Dr Martin Luther King, the public out cry to end the vietnam war....all these changes were made because the citizens wanted them and they did something about them...

No we did not, but then again what was the last conflict that the citizens voted on in Canada. I did not confuse , take a look at what the media was saying, what canadians were saying about the mission during the early years....and i do think there is s direct link to the amount of people that showed up at 3 am to see us off , with the support for the mission, i remember my last tour the only ones that showed up were family, maybe a few supporters.

I can't believe that you are putting your name to this theory as well, This theory might have some trurth if the Afghan government was not aware of what lay below there nation.....and yet the US and China are talking with the Afghan government in ref to uranium....so much for the big secret......we'll just leave it in the ground and come back later for it........because that makes sense....which leads to this question why we the US spend more than whats in the ground ...just on surveys.....then quit the mission why did they not just expand the mission to allow for minning..... but like jacee you can not provide any sources to support you claim.....i know its all a big secret......

Maybe i've been away from the board for to long, maybe this is your way of having a little laugh at my expense....maybe you hav'nt taken your meds, not sure.....for now you continue with your fantasy, i think the sane members here will clearly see it's a tin foil theory.....

Let me ask you this , did you vote....i take it you did not approve of the Afghan mission , did you take part in demostrations, did you sign a partion , did you do anything to make your voice or opinion known....these are your rights or responsibilities as a Canadian citizen.....if you answered no then the issue could not mean very much to you, or you don't care enough to make change.....if you don't care then why should you have the right to whine or complain...without your voice the government can do anything it wants.....and if you let them , then you deserve to live with any thing they do, do in our names.....can't make it any clearer than that.... So other than a soldier that was in afghanistan , how did you come to the conclusion any of this was true.....if there is no proof, how does one prove a theory.....Your asking me and the others to make one giant leap of faith....it is not the Jacee i used you know..one that was not afraid to call bullshit when a theory could not be proved.....

But they were hot enough to convince a major super power to take action spending trillions of dollars in the process to wait and watch their investment go up in smoke......not hot enough to convince a major super power to remain in Afghanistan to secure the allege deposits....does that not sound crazy to you.....does that sound like good business practice to you..... SO i will bend to your will ........ name any multi national company that has convinced the US government to enter into conflict with Afghanistan for the sole purpose of retrieving resources with trillions.....maybe a source please....

How has that worked out for you so far....most soldiers agreed with the entire Afghanistan mission but thats another topic.........Making sure the country does not get dragged into unjust wars is every Canadian citizens responsibility, which has been my point all along, part of that process is voting, another is your right to peacefully demonstrate, sign petitions etc.....if you don't want to get involved in the process, then you deserve what ever is decided....there fore losing to right to whine and complain.... As for your other comment about mega corporations, well you've yet to provide any concrete proof, or a source, just words, want to convince me then do so.....if not then maybe you should drop the whole thing...

OK but i also said you could provide any corp that is taking these resources for profit that can be tied to any member of the coalition....and you call me Naive....if nobody is taking these resources, then there is no meat to your theory..... and as i just explained to you why spend 4 to 6 times more for a resource that could be purchased for alot less on the open market......your talking about total control over one of the most powerful nations on earth......that is a major leap on the theory scale....and we are to put 2 and 2 together because of a few posts on MLF, still no sources, no proof...... And i did hear about the uranium rumour while we were over there, and we operated in the hemland district all the time not once did we observe any mining operations....not saying there were none, just saying we heard alot of rumours over there pipe lines , huge buried mineral deposits and yet it all still remains under ground.....

Are you listening to yourself, they'll let it lie, and until people forget the connection .....sounds like something out of the x files......still no proof yet no source, just a theory.... And yet one would have to ask a few questions like how much did the Afghan conflict cost .....it is rumoured that the offical cost is estamated at 686 bil, and we all know accurate these are.....time est the cost at over 4 to 6 trillion for both Afghan and Iraq conflicts...... http://time.com/3651697/afghanistan-war-cost/ This would beg the question of why would a government over spend for these resources that it could buy on the open market for alot cheaper.....because that is not how these theories work......and now we are suppose to believe that they are just going to sit on it , after spending all that tax dollars hoping that nobody is going to find it on their own.....Jig is up the Afghan government is well aware of what resources it has, infact there are a couple of articles i found during my search for Uranium deposits in Afghanistan, that suggest that China is the front runner for these deposits.... US must be pissed, spending all that cash only to have it given to CHINA......I have another theory maybe the US will re enter into the conflict this time unstead of fighting terrorists.....this time they'll go in and steal what is theirs..... http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/nuclear-war-in-afghanistan it seems your theory is coming undone....i guess you'll have to find another theory...

Jaccee: More powerful statements , as I asked OGFT, can you name any Canadian corp, that has profited from these resource surveys, have they pulled any of these resources from the ground......infact lets open it up a little, OK a lot, can you name any corp form any nation that has made a profit from mining Afghan resources....please provide a source....and yes Afghanistan has Uranium deposits....along with over a thousand other valuable resources.... So what , your statement would make sense if you had proof that Canada or for that matter the US entered Afghan because of corp greed for resouces....and yet there was no pipe line no great minning adventures , no oil, infact not much of anything......

on guard for thee: I read the same article, but what you fail to mention that it also said that the retrieving of said resources would not be cost effective....so my question to you is how much of these resources has been pulled out of the ground by the Canadian government.....or a Canadian company .....has any of it been pulled from the ground by anyone...... Could the survey been done to assist the country of Afghan... How much of these resources went into the coffers of any coalition pockets......Jaccee made a very powerful statement, stating that our involve was corporate driven....and you seem to agree, so perhaps one of you can provide a source that would prove that theory.....

Really i thought the pipe line myth was debunked long ago, you mean a pipe line that is still on the drawing boards.....any other resources we should know about......

Just curious but what resources did Canada gleen in Afghanistan, and what are we going to gleen from the fight with ISIS....how about from any of the missions where we sent our troops.....

I find it hard to believe that you do not know what options you have available under our democratically elected constitution. some of them i already spelled them out to you.....and yet you continue with this fantasy that the burden of whether we go to war should rest on our soldiers backs.....you suggest that by the soldiers refusing to go, there will not be a war or conflict.....it just wont work for a couple of reasons, there are enough people in this country who would gladly pick up arms for it, enjoy a decent pay check, and serve our great nation....in other words if a soldier was to quit his replacement would already be in training before he were released.....result would be like taking your hand out of a pail of water..... second you would need to have the majority of the Canadian public to support those soldiers.....Not a chance in hell...i mean there are lots of Canadians who do, but not in the numbers you need for this to make a difference, they talk a good game but when asked to put some effort in well , you lose them......welcome to the unemployment line.... Here is my message to those that pay taxes and do not vote.....or do not exercise their democratic rights .....Suck it the f*** up....your in it for the free ride, they have something to say about everything, and yet are not willing to do anything about it..... stop whining and complaining you have not earned that right.....

well said.

Soldiers do not run this country, nor do they have a say in how it is run, with the only exception of placing a vote, in fact soldiers have less options than regular citizens, they can not publically voice an opinion be it to favour or disapprove on the government policy or decision, they can not take part in any political demonstration or event, they can not protest policies, or federal decisions....Soldiers are suppose to be grey, soldiers have two options, abide by government policies,decisions or quit the military....And for what become a stat, joining the unemployment line, and for those that have to feed families quitting to make a small point that will be forgotten before your release papers are approved is crazy. My first question is why are Canadians leaving this in the hands of its soldiers, thats bullshit.....Canadians have forgotten the power each and everyone has the right to demonstrate unfavourable government decisions, be it a gather signatures, using the media, or gather on the lawns of parliament. if they can not do that, for ever reason you have a couple of options, suck it up, move to another country. If Canadian Citizens can not get out to vote then they deserve any government that is formed, and forced to endure what ever that government decides, with a large sign placed on their heads, I DID NOT VOTE, so the rest of us could tell them to STFU when they whine and complain. For those that did vote and lost you still have rights and a voice. take action to make change....if you dont have time for that then see para above....

Big guy: I dont doubt your admiration for those that have served, in fact thank you for it. That being said there is alot of Canadians that do talk out of the sides of their mouths , saying one thing and meaning something else, Supporting our troops is one of those things....And for the most part the soldiers get it. I think the government did a great job at selling the mission in the early years, Canadian civilian support was very high. I remember the turn out of civilians at trenton number in the thousands, and we left at 3 am. As the mission progressed the government fails at turning out a clear mission statement, but at this point the mission is changing daily so i can't really blame the government. As for them not understanding the mission , again i disagree, everytime we turned around there was another dog and pony that had to be set up for incoming government officials, and it was not limited to just the cons, every party had multi trips throughout the year. it was due to security that they had to stay in KAF for the most part....I think they should have gone outside the wire and should have stayed with the troops a couple of days in field conditions, along with the media....yes it would have been a circus, but they would have received a first person look at what was going on in the country.... Did they make a good decision to enter the afghan conflict, i think so,did they understand the conflict , i think so, i dont agree that they could have reversed the decision when things went south....For most that did go , we knew who we were fighting , we knew their tactics, how they conducted operations , their political beliefs, and how far they were willing to go....i mean it's not like history was just invented....But stepping into any conflict , everyone has to agree it is a long and slow process, there is no drive through, conflicts take decades to resolve..... Your right DND is financed by the taxpayers, which includes soldiers. That being said was most of the Afghanistan mission came out of DND coffers, which included some of the diplomatic projects, This caused many problems DND is still facing today, delay in major purchasing projects, it effected training, other DND operations, cuts to every aspect of DND life.... Had these expenses been added to the taxpayers burden, i think the mission would have been looked at closer by taxpayers. The people would have taken more interest in it. Very few of the media ever left the camp, very few reported on the conditions our soldiers faced,or the tools they were using, and when the story did get out, such as soldiers driving lightly armoured vehs, such as iltis jeeps, wrong camouflage, soldiers had already paid the price for those failures with their lives.....until then everyone in Canada was content,or should i say bored with the mission.... For any mission to be successful it needs more than boots on the ground, it needs the support of the Country, it needs industry, it needs to be funded.....it needs to be long term.....We can point our fingers at the government , and shout here is the failure, but when history is recorded, we all had a part to play.....as for our safety abroad, again it is a team sport, it is not just our government , our military, that plays a role it all of us, from stripping off on some mountain, to how we conduct ourselves at some resort.....to how we conduct warfare. Canadians need to understand war, and what it means, our generations have long forgotten what real war is, sure we get a taste from watching movies, but war is about death and destruction period.....how many french citizens died in the liberation of france, shit lets talk about just at normandy....thousands in just a few days. today we watch the news and gasp 25 died here or there, because we decided to drop a few bombs, nobody cares that this is war, nor do they understand the cost of destroying high value targets....war is about whom ever can destroy the most, the fastest and the cheapest...that includes accepting that innocent civilians are going to die...I know that sounds cold, and evil....but that is what war is all about....and if we can not accept that then we should not go to war. or peace keep, or take part in defensive agreements period.