Army Guy

Your right Smallc I do owe it to Canadians, I owe them all the good and all the bad, which is my point, but all you want to here is the good, no one wants to here about the bad, I guess I should just shut up and be grateful for what I have is that your message here.

It was your intention to question mine though, because you think that I am showing disrespect towards this government,past governments along with it's citizens through questioning how we as a nation treat our soldiers....I here I thought we lived in a democracy, with freedom of speech and others.....But instead of you debating the topic you attack me, and question my patriotism....like wanting a defense department that does not put undo risk to it's soldiers is a taboo topic....

Perhaps Gen Vance see that with out any missions or operations on going one of the sure fire methods to secure extra funding is to be involved....scraps from the big table are better than nothing....But this funding comes at a cost dead soldiers.....something many Canadians are good with....

The media has changed the meaning of Collateral damage to something entirely different. It is now assumed that NATO is deliberately targeting civilians women and children and using these attacks as terrorists do, to make a political statement. Not true, NATO uses all of it's resources to eliminate it's enemies, those are the targets...Great lengths go into each mission to reduce Collateral damage, even canceled if the value of the target does not warrant the damage to incents.... And on the rare occasion the value of the target does out weigh any collateral damage, such as a high ranking enemy combatant or several in one location, where many more lives could be saved by taking them out.... Terrorist on the other hand deliberately attack women and children as it has the highest media value....to allow them to gain more coverage for they're struggle....in their minds killing soldiers does not bring about the same result as killing civilians.... NATO can easily increase the collateral damage by bombing them back into the stone age, wiping out everyone and everything much like mid evil times or in a total war such as WWII, Hence why we have as a civilized world agreed to the genva convention, which limits these activities....And labels those that do practice them as terrorist....or criminals I get the fact that to the families dead is dead it does not bring relief to the pain they are suffering....But then again nothing that happens in war will bring joy and happiness....only death and destruction.

Don't lecture me on patriotism, I spent 34 years in the service of my country, 9 tours of duty in some of the worlds shit holes, and 5 years in Germany...and not once did I waiver in my duty or sacrifice for this nation...I have held my best friend in my arms on the battle field watching his last moments of his life fade away, I have buried to many good friends, seen even more maimed for life, both physically and mentally. I have attended 6 more funerals since the Afghanistan mission has ended, for friends that have taken their own lives....I think I earned that check mark in the patriotism block of life....along with a few others. And in return all I have asked is for this nation to stand up and have our soldiers backs, to look after our soldiers when they are broken incapable of serving this great nation any more. I have also advocated for better equipment as it is proven to save lifes.....To bring our soldiers home alive and well so they can be with their families....A mission that we as citizens have failed at. I owe everything I have in life, all my experiences, all my training, to our nations military, it has feed and clothed my family, allowed me to purchase my home, raise my kids in a good, safe environment. I also owe my life to some of it's members the men and women who I have the honor of calling comrads in arms. And if bringing into question how the rest of Canada treats these brave men and women is unpatriotic then I am guilty as charged. I have been retired for DND since 2014, and now a regular citizen of this great nation, with all the freedoms and rights as you have.....I while am no longer bound by that oath, my service is done...if this nation was to call upon me once again I would do it in a heart beat....Sounds very unpatriotic to me.... And yet your entire posts sounds more like "shut the F*** up" and do as your told to do, and to drive your point home you question MY loyalty to our nation. turning it into a dick measuring contest of some sort....by telling me your proud of our nation, and some how I am not because I have questioned some of our governments actions and the actions of it's citizens..... The fact that your willing to let our military slip into despair, putting the lifes of our soldiers at extra risk because it is not properly equipped and trained....that sir has got patriotism written all over it....add that to your list of things i'm proud off, that fact that we can not question our governments actions has got patriotism written all over it....the fact that you label those that do has got patriotism written all over it....add all those things to your things i'm proud of list.... And now that we have our dicks swinging in the wind, and comparing sizes please tell the other posters here what have you've done to be a patriotic Canadian.

Once again, the CDS advises the PM on what the military is capable of doing and what is beyond it's reach. It is the PM's job to take in that advice and make a decision....He meaning the PM is the man that makes the call, regardless of what the CDS has advised or not....Politicians have a habit of blaming others for those decisions, but in the end the PM needs to own it...he is after all who is in charge.. That being said after that decision is made by the PM do you really think the CDS would go to the media and voice his concerns or dismay with that decision, not likely... Gen Vance knows what shape the military is in, and I am positive he has also made it very clear to our government in charge on a daily basis...None of us were in the room when this discussion took place, nor do we know exactly what Gen Vances thoughts are on the topic, for us the public we can only speculate....Perhaps Gen Vance see that with out any missions or operations on going one of the sure fire methods to secure extra funding is to be involved....scraps from the big table are better than nothing....But this funding comes at a cost dead soldiers.....something many Canadians are good with.... This is not about pointing the finger at the liberals , It's about how this is going to effect our nations military....

Yes Soldiers join by choice, normally driven by a need to give back to this nation, to serve a higher cause than just a pay check, to have a sense of belonging to an institution for the greater good, similar to becoming a police officer or firemen. At least that is how it is sold to young men and women who are inspired by our governmental propaganda. Because the government needs them to have seats at certain tables, to do their bidding for political points abroad....Funny how that does not get mentioned in the recruiting posters, to coin a US phase be all you can be, just don't expect us to support you..... Governments make a lot of promises, to get your vote, they promise you a rose garden and deliver what ever they feel like. And while that sounds like good leadership to you, you really should get out more....Running a country is more than just following the peoples wishes for cotton candy, and hard toffee. And yes you are one of those "people" you've said as much in more than one post... And Yes, the military has always done as it has been told, when it has been told, it has always had our citizens backs. regardless if it's had the support of Canada and its population.....I guess it is a one way street.

Your problem is your understanding of war it self....Even your favorite Gen Powel understood that, where he has been quoted as saying Nothing in war is fair, we concentrate our forces to maximize our fire power to it's fullest, we will use every weapon and tactic available to us, to bring about the end of this violence and the Sadam's regime. Who seem to be shedding a tear for those poor terrorist because they are not being fought on a level playing field....for a group who uses terror not again'st those that are doing the bombing, but to thousands of innocent civilians.....why because they are cowards, nothing more....they are not will to take on military forces when it is to their advantage, they want to cause terror amongst the soft under belly of their own nation.....their own people..... This is what your condoning....a Muslim boys club that want to play soldier, and kill as much as they want, they want to feel the power of controlling others, perverting an entire religion , forcing their will upon millions....I wonder if they show the same compassion when they kill unarmed civilians.....and then have the balls to say we are being hunted down and killed like animals with planes, tanks, drones etc....They are animals....they follow ideals that need to be wiped out completely..... No your silent on what these scumbags did to deserve all this special treatment from the west....which could mean you approve some how....and if it is all right for them to use such tactics of ethic cleansing, mass murder, the targeted killing of women and children.....why does your balls get twisted when NATO accidentally kills civilians....seems there is a double standard....

This new mission is just another example of our political masters willingness to gain global political points on the backs of our soldiers, while over looking the current state of our military.....This will never stop happening, and yet it is sanctioned by the Canadian people, who I might add are scared shitless of what our elected governments would do with a larger Military force......Who pays the price for these childish acts....our soldiers...when are we going to wake up....And at least demand they are equipped properly....

Having any mission under direct UN control is much more dangerous, it adds dozens of layers to the chain of command, plus they control the RO&E, Ask Yugoslavia how the UN mission went there, before they were dumped in favor of a NATO mission. This is not going to be good.

Your starting to get it, todays world is a global one in all aspects, from civil wars, to screwing with the prices of oil and other commodities. The UN is nothing more than a place to vent and rant your problems to, without any solutions bring brought forward and when they are they are Veto. Leaving the job to the other super powers.... What I don't get is most Canadians would rather watch the world burn, rather than lift a finger to help, sure we are there to hand out some Kleenex, and blankets but that is where we stop. That is until some little boys body washes up on the beach, then we all of sudden develope some form of emotions and want to help.....we open our wallets and homes to invite refugees, the same people we told to "it's a local problem sort it out by your self" we will not help your cause....now shut up and take your blanket.....mean while the main problem still exists, and still goes on.... ISIL is not trying to set up some Sunni nation, it kills anyone not of the same ideology, THAT INCLUDES Sunni Muslims...ISIL does not talk for all Sunnis, in fact the majority are speaking out again'st ISIL and their practices....one could hardly say "OH they just want their own homeland" lets give it to them and be done with this....ISIL is now in 1/2 dozen nations, not there to set up anything but to kill their enemies....which include everyone that does not think and act as they do.....How hard is that to see....

Have you been watching the news lately, ISIS has made claims for several bombings in Turkey. And yet what are we as a nation suppose to do with groups like ISIS, do we turn our heads and claim it is just a regional problem, and yet this regional problem effects us in several ways, in the wallet as it influences markets, global prices of oil, and trade within that region....do we just shrug our shoulders and ride out the storm....and what do we do with all those refugees, the other effects of war, do we continue to pay out for other effects of war and continue our lives if nothing has happened.

I could give you a long list of countries that would disagree with your UN statement entirely but you could start with the state once called Yugoslavia, ask them how their rights were protected, during that conflict, as UN soldiers watch them cleanse entire villages, cities, helpless to stop them..... NATO is a defensive agreement signed by dozens of countries, meant to counter soviet aggression, so the answer to your question is yes, NATO would come to the aid of any country that signed on to that agreement, even if it meant going to wqar with mother Russia. If the state of our military bothers you so much, then why are you so good with it, is it the tax dollars spent, is it your afraid of our military, what is the reason you oppose it so much ? Regardless of the state of our military, our government will send it to defend this nation regardless, and those young men and women will pay for that decision with their lives....Something most Canadians are willing to live with....until it is their sons and daughters that will answer the call, wonder if they would change their tone then....when it is to late....when they are attending the funeral service for a love one....

Knowing this how can you justify your position, with any cuts....knowing that the forces have been cut to the bone, all that is left is to cut capabilities....keeping on topic, how can we justify NOT being able to move your forces which was barely able to with over 10,000 wheeled vehs now forcing it to do that job with only 1500 vehs.... All this is going to do is force DND to rent the Civilian contractors, or vehs to get the job done, how does that save any funds, How would they ever handle say another Winnipeg flood, or ICE storm....

The Milcot fleet your talking about is the MSVS fleet, a veh platform originally purchased to service our reserve forces, it is a civilian truck 7.5 ton, with limited off road performance. The length of the veh prevents it from operating in a lot of field conditions as it is easily high centered. As the regular force began retiring it's veh fleet , they started to strip most of the reserve units of these vehs, leaving behind mostly civilian pick up trucks.....It should also be noted even with the MSVS in service it's total numbers do not even come close to the number of vehs it is suppose to replace. While the truck program was severely downgraded in size, the production of 20 foot containers or office, workshops, cp's, etc went on, meaning now there is these SEV's or 20 foot containers to replace MLVW SEVs or pods, but very limited prime movers. meaning a unit will not have the ability to make tactical moves with out support from other resources.... Not to mention that it stills leaves the forces which was in desperate need of lift before the forced retirement of most of its fleet of almost 10,000 wheeled vehs, now it has to make do with 1500 vehs....or to put that in context , it will have the G wagons (jeeps) and then a split truck fleet of new and old MSVS trucks, with no other capabilities in between or the heavy trucks it was looking for. Then once you break those numbers down again for specialty vehs such as refuelers, recovery, arty prime movers, PLS trucks which form the bulk of the fleet, the Army, and Air force will have next to nothing in the form of cargo vehs......Once again if you can not move cargo the army is not mobile.... It is one thing to create a smaller force, if done in scale that is balanced ,thisis taking away the ability to move your forces....period..... The TAPV is not what DND wanted, it was what was forced upon them by fiscal restraints, and political handling, I've talked to some of the armored guys that were involved in the testing and they said it was not the best choice of what was available, The armored corp was looking for a RECCE platform, to replace the Coyote Recce veh, one armed with a decent gun, an improved surveillance package. what they got was a smaller veh, with a light RWS system.

SmallC is correct some what....but get ready for the smoking mirrors. So DND had put in place a massive project to replace the LSVW, MLVW and HLVW, with more than 80% of these vehs now sitting rusting out in army compounds around the country, grounded due to maintances conditions, such as rust out, no parts, or no parts available, this portion of the fleet is now being used to keep the other vehs operating, That project of taking these vehs off the road was started in 2013.....today in 2016, units would be hard pressed to have one example on the road..... So the Cons threw DND a bone , yes we will buy some trucks 1500 9.5 ton trucks and 300 trailers. For a grand total of 843 Million dollars....to replace your MLVW fleet....the Orginal project was meant to be a 4 bil project....No other funds where made available.... So lets put the new purchase into context shall we.... There was over 2700 MLVWs 2.5 ton trucks orginal purchased these trucks are used for cargo, office, workshops, CP, maintence trucks MRT, Medical and dental sevs etc etc....this entire fleet will be replaced by a truck not even in the same class.... Now what about the LSVW, with over 2800 vehs in various types, or the HLVW fleet of over 1200 vehs. There is a Military project, but no funding...In fact the Cons had said this to the military, I So the DND, will have to swallow this pill, 1500 trucks will replace , over 7500....Now DND has been prying to the Liberal gods for something to be done....but no movement yet, nor plans of movement.... http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canadian-military-to-get-logistics-trucks-11-years-after-first-being-proposed-1.2472903 The TAPV project: This is the Cons answer to Not buying enough LAV 6.0....it has decided to fill in some of those shortfalls with a much cheaper veh call the TPAV....this 2 bil contract will see the possibly creation of up to 700 Canadian jobs in Quebec.... The TPAV will be used in a role it is not designed to do, be a Infanty fighting vehs....< it is also being used to replace Coyote Recce vehs (240 vehs), plus the RG mine protected veh fleet, (100 Vehs) ....,what is left over will be divided across the army. The ironic part of this rant is the US government offer Canada a sweet deal on Brand new FMTL, or 2.5 trucks as well as the Hemmit line of trucks, They also asked each NATO nation that was in Afghanistan and Iraq if they wanted the same vehs for free, as they did not want to transport them back to the states....all we had to do was pay for the freight, and overhaul....these vehs ended up being shredded and sold for scrap, thousands of them....along with thousands of mine protected vehs, Modified M113, even tanks and IFV's....

I find that often Orbats are often misleading to the general public , as they often assume they are fully equipped and fully manned, leading them to think that our forces are much larger or more potent than they really are.... As Derek has already explained currently we do have 3 Regts of Mech Infantry, PPCLI, RCR, Vandoos, each Regt has 3 Bn,s 2 Mechanized BN,s one Lt BN... the Mechanized BN's are on paper armed with LAV 6.0's, while the LT BN's are Primarily armed with trucks and BV 206... Mechanized Infantry BN: has x 3 rifle companies, one Combat support Company, and One Support or Admin Company. on paper they have roughly 600 pers give or take... Rifle Company: is suppose to be manned around 150 troops each , today a company might be able to field 80 to 100 troops,once taskings, or other training commitments are taken into account some companies are lucky to have 60 combat troops available.... Once our Mission to Afghanistan was finished recruit priorities have changed, resulting in the lower numbers.... Equipment: On paper each mechanized BN is suppose to be equipped with 3 rifle companies worth of LAVs or about 15 each. todays Mechanized BN at most have 2 companies worth, with some only being equipped with one, the rest of the companies are truck mounted or travel by bus.. Hardly a true mechanized BN... DND has addressed this with our government , and at one time the LAV III replacements project was going to solve this issue with the purchase of new LAVS enough to outfit all the BNs as per their TO&E tables, this was down graded in size and to a project that seen our current LAVS "upgraded" by cutting each LAV III in half , disposing of the bottom half, replacing it with the new upgraded LAV 6.0, the top half remained un changed...this is the same Veh the Saudis purchased only theirs are totally new, and have many upgrades to the gun, FCS etc we don't have... Because there is such a massive shortfall in LAV numbers DND also decided to make them up with the purchase of the TAPV project, this project is still pending as manufacture is having issues with the veh, cracked hulls etc. Placing unit logistical tails to grow even bigger as they now have to keep parts and equipment for 2 series of vehs. and it will still not address the shortfalls completely... Combat support Company: This company is nothing more than a shell of its former self, consisting of a Recce plt, Sniper dets, and BN HQ and SIgs. Struck off the TO&E are the other plts that once made the BN self reliant on the battle field. - Armored Recce Plt, - Assault Pnrs ( inf combat engineers) - Armored defense Plt ( x 18 tow under armor M113) - mortar Plt ( x 12 81 mm mortars) This company once numbered over 250 pers... Support Company: although downsized, numbers in around 175, down from 225. Armored Regts: Canada only has one armored regt with tanks, LDSH in Edmonton, (x 3 sqns of tanks, 45 tanks ) along with one tank sqn ( 15 tanks) belonging to the RCD's in Gagetown....the rest are armored recce sqns armed with Coyotes, which are being retired....and replaced with TAPV vehs....the rest of the tanks are in the Armored tank school in Gagetown.... Cut from the Brigade TO&E was each Brigade armored recce sqn, a Brigade level asset that was part of the Tank Regts Tables....as they had turned most of the RCD and all of RBC Regt into strictly recce Regts.... Arty Regts: Once armed with the M-109 Self propelled Arty platforms, now long gone and replaced with a variety of guns such as M777, and 81 mm mortars taken from the Infantry BN's, * note the 105 mm Gait has been replaced and retired due to cracks, now some regts have 105 mm guns that date back to Korea...but not all...All of these have to be towed into battle with trucks.... Also part of the arty corp is the air defense corp, or what we now call General service support Regt....not sure on their exact role they play now, UAV's are based here....Gone is the ADDATS Self propelled Anti air and armor sys, and the twin 35 mm towed AA guns, with Sky guard radar sys... Service Bn. This BN has been gutted to it's core, once a very large organization that could supply a Brigade group in the field for long periods of time...what remains is about a 1/2 of it's self. Gutted because it is a nice to have item when faced with starvation. Made up of 4 companies Supply, Transport, Maintenance, and Admin. Gone are most of Supply capabilities such as G&T Plt, ( general and tech stores), MLBU mobile laundry and bath unit, and the brigades NBCW decon capabilities "re allocated to the nations NBCW special task force team". Most of supplies transport assets have been redistributed due to truck shortages in the forces. replaced with 20 ft sea cans , but no prime movers to move them. Transport company also gutted for the same reasons, Maintenance Company also reduced but is one of the stronger companies , these guys fix everything the brigade breaks in the run of a day.... SO while a brigade might be 7500 pers on paper, it would be lucky to see 5000 of those numbers, which would be reduced even more by fitness levels, medical issues , mental issues, etc etc ..... My point here is not everything is what it seems to be... lets not forget the Army is the governments favorite son, and i'm quit certain that things are a lot worse with the navy and air force.....

Perhaps you should ask Trudeau SNR, when US president at the time put it to him gently, to purchases new tanks and fighters....What makes a Prime Minister, who does not believe in the Military , nor NATO, and NORAD, who tried to take all of that under his wing so Canada could make it's own policies....So what was said to change his mind...one could only guess but I bet it was not a nice conversation. France and Germany already spend over 2 % GDP, But i'm sure they too would have to relook at not cashing in all their peace bonds... One would also have to look at the what if Trump becomes president, he has already commented on this matter, and said he would change all that....

I wonder how Canadians will react if we are forced by our allies to comply with our defensive agreements.

I want to clarify something, Military commanders follow orders, they do not have the power to dictate anything to the government, they have advised on many occasions that our forces are not suitable or capable of various missions....Such as Bosnia and Afghanistan...In the end the government took that advisement and sent them anyways.....The government knew exactly what our military shortfalls where and sent them anyways..... What needs to be done is recognize there is a problem first,and finding out to what extant the problem is.... and to find a solution to all that....and all the thousand s of problems and issues that go with that.....nobody is asking for a blank check....but don't put the check book away, because decades of neglect have eroded a lot, and nobody is say it is going to be cheap.....and the Military used as a source of income to fund other governmental programs.....that steady source of funding who talk off has been taken away or used for something else.... Finding a balance is key, but we are not talking about funding millions of troops, or growing a military that fits in the top 5....we are talking about marginal increases in size and maintaining our current capabilities maybe even recovering a few lost ones.....nobody is talking about aircraft carriers, or nuclear attack subs....but rather small stuff like new trucks....new Aircraft, new ships in the future....

I don't disagree with everything you have said, But the ball is in the politicians court and always will be, they know regardless of the state of our military, They will go and do their bidding regardless of cost once given the order to do so ....it is also a fault of the military to take on any challenge and try to over come it....regardless of cost it is a pride thing....Failure is not an option.. Where I do disagree is that Canada's military should not be restricted to a defensive role only, history has shown us plenty of times that sometimes diplomacy is just not enough and military force needs to be applied, examples of WWI, WWII, plus others. Perhaps new laws or policies can remedy this some how or restrict military force. Some conflicts have made the general public very leery about governments use of force, conflicts such as Iraq, or Afghanistan are some examples, and have changed the publics opinion on any use of the military....as been shown here many times it is only a matter of will or so i'm told, to make these changes.....instead of cutting off our arm dispite our hands perhaps looking at other measures that restrict governments use of force... Canada entire security apparatus is in shambles, it needs to be fixed not reduced so it is incapable of not doing it's job....How that is done, what it is going to look like, I do not know it is beyond my pay grade or expertise, what my experience does tell me is reductions is not the way to go, if we can not do the job now with the numbers we have now, how could reductions be the answer.....I seen first hand what doing more with less does, it reduces capabilities, it reduces much needed training, it takes much longer to accomplish tasks, tasks are rushed and not done to a professional level , because their is always 10 more tasks behind it....no light at the end of the tunnel so to speak....The pace that is set burns personal out all that much faster, which leads to higher release rates, medical issues, mental issues....it also does the same thing to equipment..... there are thousands of options available to the government and DND, in order to save money all they have to do is look....

That is not what I said or implied, if that's is your take on the post re read it.....

Maybe you have missed it Waldo, or choose to ignore it, as not worthy of your attention, and I respect that, it is after all your choice. I have also stated that I do not believe that this period of Fiscal restraint is factual or 100 % accurate, as I have stated in response to several of your posts. The fact remains that this government or the last one take your choice, have always been able to find a way to fund their dreams or aspirations....30 bil in new liberal spending is one example and I'm sure it would not take you long to find a similar or greater number that harper spent....when one can scrap 30 bil or more up , there is a good indication there is no fiscal restraints.... When I referred to Finite resources, there is of course if one was to maintain budgetary restraint to not over spend what one collects in revenue....but in most governments that is not always the case is it....going into the red is the "in" thing to do....and when one wants to look good for re election and provide a balance budget , well there is always cuts to be made within the our military budget.. always the in thing to do....Or one could redirect funding from other depts, as also suggested.... I have chosen not to directly challenge the other TWO prolific members on this forum, as I was already heavily involved with Smallc and Impacts posts...I've already had these conversations with derek, along time ago, and we both agreed to disagree on our stances.....That and the fact I respect dereks opinions, and in many cases agree with them.....just not in this case....and if in your eyes that diminishes my stance because of I have not challenged derek or others so be it, until then I stand by my posts.

This is another issue or perception with our military that most Canadians have, that it is armed with the latest greatest I phone as you called it. That is not the case, Case in point look at the age of our CF-18's, our Frigates, our destroyers, look at the condition of our Subs, look at the condition of the Army's truck fleet, the majority of which are sitting in open fields because they are not useable... On top of all that, our latest adventure into Afghanistan has torn up most of the new equipment we have, it's been used hard and put away wet....after all it was in a war zone. And while it is still being used, it is becoming more costly to maintain, and operate. I get it there are finite resources available to operate each and every dept within our federal government. That being said is DND is often the first target when it comes to cut backs , and the last dept to receive additional funding....the commitment you speak of must be a two way street. clawing back additional funding has to stop...And on DND side of the house how can one maintain a long term plan when it changes every year... If Canadians really knew the true state of our military, it would be shocking...Not only the condition of its equipment, it's infra structure, training, etc etc they would be demanding something be done....But most Canadians think our military is a well oiled machine, with top of the line equipment....That is not so.... The other perception a lot of Canadians have is " whining that they want bigger and better toys, and will daddy please open the wallet." the attitude that the military is just a whinny kid never satisfied with what is offered.... Todays Military is not whinning , but begging like a starved child for something to be done to slow down the erosion of capabilities and the fact soon our military will become to expensive to fix. The warning signs have been made very clear in numerous reports not only done by the Canadian military but also our allies and other defensive partners.... The military has done this one several occasions, such as Bosnia, and Afghanistan, advised the government that in it's current condition those missions could not be done, or would require additional resources.....But DND does what it is told, and while the missions get accomplished regardless it is due to the members of DND, and their sacrifices.....Addition resources where given to DND, however all the expenses occurred in Afghan came out of those same resources, the fact that DND ran in the red for the first 3 years of the Afghan conflict is proof of that, forcing DND to cancel purchase projects or delay them, cancel training, infra structure improvements....the list is pretty long..... Yes there was new equipment purchased for DND during the Afghan mission, on things like new replacements for Iltis jeeps, new M777 towed arty pieces, desert cam uniforms, new Battle tanks, even chinnook helos ......But all those purchases were done after enough soldiers had died, and the public was made aware and forced the government into doing so... Is that responsible government, is that what Canadians call having our soldiers backs....So many other issues with equipment and supplies went un noticed during that conflict, issues that attributed to soldiers deaths.... And if that is where we are in our country right now, where it is OK to under equip our military, to the point were we place untold extra risk to our soldiers then that is fine....but we as a nation should be telling that to the countless men and women who want to sign up ...it should be on our recruiting posters....But we don't do that because we are good with that lie.... I have mentioned in countless threads here that if there is no will to equip our military properly then our government must be forced from sending them any where....that is above our capabilities..... Most of the Canadian content rules are designed as pork barrel exercise's, to make it look like we are spending Dollars to create work for Canadians ,keeping Canadian dollars in Canada great idea, great concept if it is done when it is reasonable..... There are many equipment needs that are outside Canada's defense industry expertise, or the quality or costs is not in the same category of it's competitors. you have mentioned that funding resources are not an endless pit....and yet it is reasonable for you to pay twice the price for equipment that is not of the same quality as other imports. Why is quality so important , it saves lives.. on the battle field....why is price so important , because DND receives funding only when their is a blue moon, why not make the best use of it and get the equipment we need and want.... If you want to feed funding into our industries then do so through other means, If we don not want to grow our defense industries because their is no will, then stop using the excuse "well it provides Canadian jobs" and yet the average Canadian does not practice "buy Canadian" they buy what ever is the cheapest.... An example of Canadian content....leaf springs for the MLVW, made and assembled in the US, then disassembled in the US , and shipped to Canada, to be reassembled in Quebec so they could claim it was assembled in Canada...Why they were not made in Canada I do not know, there were hundrds of parts like this one example completed this way....a waste of tax dollars, all to be able to put a sticker on the veh assembled in Canada.... Offsets are nothing more than a bribe from a company to a country to be able to sell it's product....look at the F-35 and what offsets Canada is expecting, a 9 bil dollar project and we expect 9 bil dollars in offsets..... If Canadians want to disband their Armed forces then fine....want to outsource our defense fine, I'm sure in your mind it would be much cheaper, gone will be all those pork barrel contracts for our industries, add to the unemployment rate 65,000 people, not a big deal, gone will be all those towns and cities that depend on military dollars to survive, also gone is our ability to have a say on our defense, foreign policy let alone our sovereignty....Gone will be our soldiers having to pay for purchases with their blood....Gone will be a lot of things.... You sound like some union boss back in the 60's .....shut up, be glad you even have a job, stop whining or go some place else....forget the fact that most Military members do what we do not because of the pay check, but because they care about the nation, and our security, because they are proud to serve all Canadians .....so much so they are willing to give their lives up for it.....and this is the message you want them to here.....suck it up butter cup....Like it was them that owed you something, that they are not good enough to be your equal.....Military people don't want you to worship them, call them hero's, or even shake there hand, they just want to be treated the same way our employer treats you. the just want to be equal.....

I get it native Canadians did fair on the last budget, but with bils of dollars worth of land claims, it is peanuts really....and these land claims are how old now....Maybe nobody is listening....Maybe it is a little more complicated than you portray it to be.... How many Canadians have voiced their concern with our health care system, and yet nothing is really being done...I also get it is a provincial thing, That being said those guide lines are written at the federal level....or we would not need a federal Health minister....There are tones of topics that have a majority of support and nothing or very little is being done....