Army Guy

That is not how todays democracy works....And yes the best is subjective if it not subjected to facts...but only opinion.... That is not how it works, the person who you elected because of election promises or party platforms is no more than dreams and lies....only to be broken once elected...once reality sets in.... You don't have a say in jack shit, you may think you do, by voting for the person who's campaign or promises fit your needs or wants, but that is where it ends............Did our government ask Canadians about the tax rates, our involvement in Afghanistan, the language issues face by our nation, or native American rights and how they are treated.....I must of missed those talks....our current governmental system is based on what is popular, not what is right for the nation....sorry I forgot what is right is also subjective....never mind what is the responsible thing to do.....If you are correct why does government need to be so large, full of experts in their fields...shit the people seem to know what is best, and the government just wants to do what is popular....what is the point really.....

And here it is folks....this is what it all boils down to....Our military policy is not based on facts, or what is best for the nation.....but rather what Canadians want..... Can we apply this to all our policies....Such as taxes, Most Canadians want lower taxes above most topics....How about higher CPP pay outs....foreign policy do we have a say in that....ask eyeball if he had a say in our involvement in Afghanistan....how about language issues , is there anything we have a direct say in.....That the people want....instead of basing it on facts.... Why is it we do not have a voice in these matters .....But we the people can have a say in all things military....to which the average Canadian knows nothing or very little about.... SO what we have here is a failure to communicate....

Well then who is going to provide all that manpower and heavy equipment...along with command and control, air and sea lift to get it all in there....and an organization that can respond in short notice..... You mean these guys right.....A specialized SAR, that would provide what to rescue at sea, in the north, or downed aircraft in the middle of no where....How do they get there do they have aircraft, do they have an airborne capability....So if we have an earth quake or collapsed building these guys are the bomb, a call to rescue someone on the ice pack in the north....another story.... and I thought we were talking about FLQ Crisses, a terrorist organization. And OKA, you know that the government was asked to handled a situation that the QPP could not, in fact QPP swat units tried and failed.....so now the RCMP has a few C-8, and a few Armoured cars....but it does not mean they have the training to handle an FLQ or OKA case....a little more than a civil disturbance. Why would we need to create a new organization ,with new funding, a whole string of equipment purchases.....when we can not fund the organization that does it now.....

My bad I have read the table wrong.....your right... left hand side is the Total GDP of each nation, Canada rates 15 over all, in regards to overall GDP numbers.... the right hand of the scale is for percentage of GDP spent on military, to which we rank 124 th....or 1.1 %.the table has been sorted by total amount spent on military expenditures to which Canada is in 20 th spot or 14. bil.

you can believe what ever you want Big guy, but the issues in the Ukraine do not start and stop with the Crimea. As for Canadian soldiers in Poland , look at DND web sites they have plenty of videos and photos, can't say I seen any beach shots though....

Oh do tell, what organizations would they be , and how would they be equipped....and I guess your ceding the point of the ICE storm and Winnipeg floods or could they have been handled be another organization as well, one that has the equipment, manpower and funding to pull off these types of missions.....Oh wait we do have an organization it is called the military....now you want to down size the military and create another similar organization....Take a minute gather your thoughts, your all over the map.....

Where do you get all this shit.... FLQ crises took almost the entire Army , back in the day when the armed forces was over 100K strong.... OKA seen most of 2 brigade deployed.... Winnipeg floods, remember them the most of the 1 st, 2 and brigades, portions of 5 th Brigade groups deployed along with 1000's from the Navy and Air force....not to mention how many reserves got deployed....And those numbers were not enough.... Ice Storm, Seen all of 2 Brigade,5 th Brigade and thousands of reserve troops deployed....At the time both brigades numberd around 6000 each....

They are still considered threats to our national security are they not ? And your right they are not strictly handled by the military, but rather by a group of depts., all working together which form Canada's domestic anti terrorist team....they include DND, RCMP, CSIS, border services, and the list goes on. You guys seem to have short memories, Russia poses more of a threat than to just our Artic sov, what about it's involvement in the Ukraine, or other Baltic states. threats to the EU, or NATO countries also involve Canada....lets not forget our NATO obligations and all those treaties that have our signature on them.....Their control of oil could and has been used as a wpn or means to hurt other countries as well. But Russia is not the only boogie man out there China is becoming more aggressive, to the point most of NATO countires are placing more emphases on their Pacific regions, not to mention Cyber attacks, massive exported crime organizations, involved not only in drugs, but people trafficking, etc etc ....You can role your eyes but as I have said before our military supports these types of operations as well....along with a long list of other domestic taskings.... along with all the other global countries that are not listed here, That are Canada's threat list or watch list for various reason....but hey there are no threats to Canada or to its foreign interests.....none....nothing to worry about....

Thanks for reading all my post.....In case you missed it.... reducing army pers and increasing pers in the other 2 elements is just a card shuffling exericise, trading one number with another....I mean with an increase of equipment means your going to need people to operate them and maintain them.....heres another kicker, most airforce trades receive much higher pay rates then the army and so should they....which means less personal for more funds..... Where are these savings your talking about ?

Based on what exactly ? your speaking out of both ends, one says their are Absolutly no threats to our national security, And investing in our Military is a waste of resources.....Now your talking about reducing the army and expanding NAVY and Airforce.....How much savings do you really think you see with reductions to ground forces.....Because it is after all what we are talking about right saving money.....or as you say wasting resources....One could re equip and expand ground forces for just the price of the Frigate replacement program....Why is Canada army the largest element today, because it is the cheapest to maintain....reducing army pers and increasing pers in the other 2 elements is just a card shuffling exericise, trading one number with another....I mean with an increase of equipment means your going to need people to operate them and maintain them.....heres another kicker, most airforce trades receive much higher pay rates then the army and so should they....which means less personal for more funds..... Regards how you carve up the current military, it is going to require more resources something you and others are again'st.....there is a line in the sand, pick a side only one side.....

The graph is split into two groups Both for 2011, the first graph is what we spent in percentage to our GDP numbers. the second Graph shows over all military expenditures in which we rank 127 .

Russia spends 85 bil a year on military expenditures.....

Well I guess all those security apparatus depts web sites must be just trying to scare people like me and you, because they seem to be able to fill dozens of threats and even more risks....

Well I guess that would depend on what source your using.....mine rates Canada in overall military spending ranking in at 124, while if ranked by GDP % a whooping 1 % ranks us at 15 th....But hey we were beat out by some pretty stiff compition like Brazil, Indonesia, Spain, Taiwan, Greece, Colombia, you know all the big countries....with very high GDP numbers, I mean Greece really ..... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

Fiscal realities my ass, why is it every new government makes promises to all Canadians every 4 to 5 years and some how pulls the funding out of thin air....What your implying is there is NO room any where to carve more dollars out of the budget.....where did the liberal cabinet grab 30 bil dollars from....where did Harper clowns grab there bils from...... IF and that is a big IF fiscal restraints were on, how much is this liberal government putting away to degrade our debt this term....OK how much next term ? Why is there no balanced budgets ? Fiscal restraint my ass....and your ass..... Which leaves the real reason.....NO peoples will, and No political will.....Now if we could get 4 more National hockey league teams into Canada there would be lots of will...... The fact remains there is no will at all to do anything in regards to our national security apparatus.....which reinforces the entire premise that our elected officials are no more than puppets who pander to what is popular, and will not make those tough choices to what is in the best interest of the country....

What a crock of shit....explain similar sized nations.....certainly your not talking about land mass are you, or is it population wise, nope....you've already written off GDP numbers.....so what do you mean.....because it does not matter what one you use we are not in the top 10, or 20 for that matter......

Sorry that is not how it works, are we going to get tax raises over the 30 bil that this government has announced it will spend....Our security apparatus is the governments responsibility to maintain to a reasonable level....And if that takes more funding then so be it....If that was the case this country would not be running a deficit....

No, Smallc you name them, and i'll add to your list.....

What you meant to say is most Canadians do not know what are the threats to our national security are ? Most Canadians do not care to educate themselves on these threats...Ignorance is bliss they say... Historical they've been wrong at every level.....lets take a look at the start of WWI look at troop levels, for the Army. Navy, and Air force go ahead try it... now tell me those numbers were able to protect our nation and train follow up forces....How could the couple hundred army pers possibly train or lead the hundreds of thousands of citizens to fight DO the same for WWII, Korea, do you see a pattern forming....Our nation cashed in on the peace bonds, politicians would say "what possible threats do we face they asked"....and yet how many Canadians perished after they received a few weeks training by someone reading it out of a book then were sent to the front to do some on the job training....either you were a fast learner or you died.....That statement holds no meaning unless you have something invested in it, like your life or sons, daughters lives....then it means something.... Like I have said before it is easy to bury them than to spend money on equipment.....

Self interest is an enduring quality, Sure it is, but it also needs to be balanced with what is best for the majority....or other concerns such as safety, economy, health and welfare, etc etc....If there is no balance, then I want min wage to be raised to a million dollars an hour, you get the point. And to maintain that balance it is our governments responsabilty to maintain that, popular or not....its called leadership....which we have not had in some time... Yes answering a poll is just words on a paper, Yes I love my country....does the poll ask how much, what would you sacraifice for it, how far would you support government if they raised taxes, suddenly changed laws etc etc....It is one of those questions that a majority of Canadians would answer without thinking.....like do you love your children....answewring NO would bring about more questions, which no body wants.... Yes they are big issues, but then again our safety is also a huge issue, not just DND but the rest of the security apparatus within Canada which is really under funded, under manned, and incapable of doing the job assigned to them effectively....but why ? because to the average Canadian it does not effect them on a person level, so the give a fuc* factor is not there, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS TO BE FORGOTTEN or go un addressed......

I think he said ....I can help you with the big words if you want.....

Well that would be another debate would it not, what jobs involve a higher risk than soldiering, I get it there are a lot of studies done, facts and figures point to a lot of jobs that are overall more dangerous than soldiering....but those figures are skewed to reflect that...by either shear numbers, or peace time numbers, I wonder what posed the most danger being a infantry soldier during the assault on Europe WWII, or fishing, driving a truck, or farming corn....like I said another debate altogether.... On the pay aspect, that would depend on what end of the job scale your on would it not, I know here in NB lobster fisher men, often earn more than 250 k per season, after they have paid their crew which earn a percentage of the catch....i'm pretty sure they earn more than a pte in the army 34 k a year....Plus draw UI when not working....And while I have a healthy respect for all those jobs.....and the risk they take, I'd rather been on eyeballs boat fishing and listening to his stories than do 3 tours in Afghanistan ( my opinion ) All soldiers are battle field soldiers, let me explain, yes their are combat arms, who's job is to close with and destroy the enemy, and for the most part spend most of their time doing that.....but to keep these guys supplied with beans, bullets and fuel and water, someone has to leave camp and deliver that to the combat arms guys, then there is medical support some one has to go get the wounded and treat them, this required most soldiers that go on these mission to leave the comfort of their bases and expose themselves to the enemy....Becoming a combat soldier....So that means cooks, supply. transport, maintence guys, clerks all do their part and share the risks involved in resupply, medical, and other logistical support....In Afghanistan that meant leaving the protection of the wire....I get it not as often as the Combat arms guys....but we all faced the same risk at one time or another..... I just retired form the Infantry last year with 34 years in, now while that is not the norm, it is not all that rare either....The average peer would have at least 25 years of service or more....But being an infanteer is a young mans sport, and is very hard on your body....I was lucky and never really received any major injuries.. the ones i did have i keep that to myself. . How much farther would we need to go to get to my point, There currently is no restrictions place upon our government from using it's military for what ever the reason none.....at all...with that said one brief look at history would clearly see that this issue is not tied to one government, or one time period but through the course of our entire history...How many times do we have to learn those lessons...Each time young Canadian citizens have paid for those lessons in their blood....And we as Canadians are content with that....It should piss us off....but it does not even rate an emotion.... No one is campaigning for a huge or massive army, what they are doing is however, begging for a professional armed force capable of not only defending this great nation, protecting our foreign policy, and living up to our defensive agreements....a force that is equipped with the best we can afford...Because the next time Canada is called to arms it is going to be our sons and daughters that will pay for those same mistakes we have continually made, leaving ourselves wonder was the price worth it..... My point is don't want to equip our nations military properly, then restrict the governments use of it....until then Canadians will gasp at the sight of another hearse rolling down the high of Heros....shrug their shoulders, reach for another beer, and turn the game back on.....That is how much attention our soldiers get for the average Canadian.....

How would you quantify it then....ask them, do you care about any of the policies our government makes....Outsides of Canadians personal lives would you say most meaning the majority of Canadians really care enough about what policies are made by any government in power.... Some do, lets see Women's rights thousands marched, protested, started massive women's rights groups....so I guess we can say some women care.... Same thing with African Americans, they did the same thing until new policies and laws were put into place... The LGBT community, has done the same thing until we changed our ways of thinking adding new laws and policies.... Students have done it although they were some what unsuccessful in lower costs.... Anything but harper campaign , Canadians gathered around.... So we know Canadians are capable of voicing their opinions on certain issues....but what about the BIG issues And yet there are dozens of issues that need to be tackled within our nation, that without Canadians using their voices for will go on unchanged forever....unless they effect Hockey Night in Canada, Pogey checks, and UI checks.... How does one interrupt that , well one could say Canadians are content with the way things are....or they don't give a rats ass, unless it effects them personally....Or maybe Canadians are to lazy or to busy with their personal lives to take some time to effect change.....after all we know that if Canadians want to they can effect change, history is full of examples....but there must be the will to effect change.....But why would they , because there is nothing in it for them.....look at the native issues....NATO issues, foreign affairs issues.... Shit take a look at the majority of posters here, that will stand up and jump around like their hair is on fire, about our nations foreign policies and our participation in US lead wars.....I would even go as far and say that this opinion is held be a majority of Canadians.....and yet government after government continues to send our troops over seas....That's because there voices have not been heard.......why because nobody wants to.... we either care or we do not, I see no evidence that they do care ?

I do speak for myself, and yet I spent 34 years serving in the military, and have talked to thousands that have served as well, the question of why did you join up was a common one. And while your right there are many reasons that attract people to the military....but those reasons change as they get in and see what military life is about. It is an organization that allows an individual to become part of a larger organization, to make a difference, to have a sense of worth knowing that it is a job worth doing, one that can only be done with dedication to the larger ideals, it also combines a sense of honor, integrity, loyalty, to yourself, comrads, and country. It's a job that includes unlimited liability, meaning you may be told to place your life in peril or give your life for a greater good. There are thousands of jobs available to Canadians that pay a lot more than soldiering does, for a lot less risk.... Many do treat the military as a job, however those people are normally easy to spot, and if they do not live up to the forces expectations, they are asked to leave, or forced out... Your comment on very few members see conflict is wrong....The average soldier in the army has completed 3 to 4 tours in Afghanistan, or at least 1 or 2 tours as a peace keeper or peace maker...One does not have to fire a wpn in anger to experience conflict....As for the air force, one of the smallest elements in the forces, it to has been in conflict areas, flying helos , transporting troops on and off the battle field, under fire, providing medevac services, Combat rescue, surveillance mission, same as the navy.... All one has to do is look at a military members chest and view the medals on their chest....most of those medals are for serving in a conflict zone.....and most have a chest full. Yes, their is a military driven insurance called SSIP, that provides "basic" coverage while in military operations....No other Insurance will touch it with a ten foot pole....That being said, just recently Banks have actioned coverage for house hold insurance IE it will pay out your mortgage if you are severely wounded and can not work, or upon death... Neither does the military think of themselves as hero's, that's a stigma given to them by the media....and politicians....Those heroic acts soldiers perform are not for Queen and country, the Canadian flag, or it's citizens....they are done for their comrads, nothing more....Now for me, all of those I have served with I do consider heros in my own right, only because there are not many Canadians that have what it takes to become a soldier, Airmen, or sailor.... As long as our government continues to use it's military forces to protect or project our foreign policies, defensive agreements, or national defense....it has the responsibility to look after it's military including equipping them properly and looking after it's vets....you know Canadian citizens who volunteered to do the job not many wanted.... Until that happens, your opinions are responsible for this on going cycle we have now....Cheaper to bury our soldiers than buy the equipment they need.... The military is more than just a job....it is a way of life.....But to answer your statement many do just that....leaving disappointed, educated on just how little Canadians care about the country .

Yes it is quit an accomplishment is it not, to send your nations soldiers into battle without all the equipment it needs.....After all it is cheaper to bury them than it is to purchase the right equipment....that has got to be something to be proud of....The Canadian that signs up for a career in our military, does so because of a higher sense of duty, wanting to give back something to his or her country.... they want to do more than a 9 to 5 job. and the comradeship.... I get that there are some things that trump military spending....but if our government is going to send it's citizens to war or conflict it should have the balls to equip them properly....But most Canadians are happy to just bury them, instead of forcing those in power to equip them, or here is something new , stop sending them places.... There is a misconception on the military, and other public service employees such as police and firemen....If a military member gets injured on the job, they will do due diligence and treat them to the best of their ability, for instance need a few surgery or two you will receive them, once it is identified they can not repair your injuries and you do not meet universality terms, your released. there is no work mans compensation, no military plan, your given return of contributions from your pension plan, or if your entitled to a pension your pensioned off....A soldier has to go through vets affairs to try to get a medical pension or compensation up to 300,000 for the severest injuries. which is rare....this process normally can take years to finally get something....So to recap soldiers are not entitled to regular compensations...once out of the military you deal with vets affairs...who have no idea on what soldiers do or how those injuries occur.... When I joined the military in 1980, we were close to 93,000 troops, we had funding to train, sometimes more than 8 months out of the year was spent training...when I retired, a soldier is lucky to have one major exercise a year...or for the majority once every 2 years or when deployed....Shit the media reported DND does not have funding for fuel to drive LAV/s....I spent 34 years praying it would get better....that one day we would be excepted by our own citizens and treated fairly....